Not In The Face - The Jeremy Lin Thread 3 + 1

[bws94]

To non-Lin fans, how does the league see Lin? As a combo guard that can be a huge factor in wins with his versatility or mainly as a PnR starting guard? I think more of the league is seeing the former.

[fatlever]

To non-Lin fans, how does the league see Lin? As a combo guard that can be a huge factor in wins with his versatility or mainly as a PnR starting guard? I think more of the league is seeing the former.

I see him as a solid point guard who is smart enough, tough enough and versatile enough to function effectively vs certain matchups as an undersized shooting guard. I guess that kinda makes him a combo guard, perfectly suited as a 6th man, that can play both guard spots, lead a 2nd unit in scoring or playmaking, fill in as a starter for either guard spot without any real loss in production, finish games at either guard spot.

There are very few players that don't have any holes in their games and Lin is certainly no exception. As a point guard he lacks the combination of quickness and ball handling that the best PGs in the league display. This limits his ability to face high pressure defenders, traps, presses and he occasionally has trouble beating his man off the dribble as a result.

As a point guard, he probably needs to have another strong ball handler in the lineup with him to be most effective, someone who can relieve the pressure at times.

His first instincts in halfcourt offense seems to be to hold the ball, wait for screen, meander around, around defenders into the lane looking for layups, contact or to dump the ball off to a big (after that man's defender has left). Basing an entire offense around this particular action would be fairly easy to scout and defend if a team gameplanned to take it away. However, he's one of the best in the league at this one particular action, good enough that some nights he because really difficult to defend without giving up fouls, layups or dunks to bigs.

Great at pushing the ball up the floor at attacking retreating defenders. Great a passing the ball ahead. This part of his game was under utilized by the Hornets many nights as the team stayed back to fight for defensive rebounds and with several bigs like Al, Hawes and Frank not ideally suiting to running the court on fast breaks.

The streaky outside shooting does not help pull defenders away or force them to go over screens, making easier to defend.

At shooting guard he would need to have some bigger players around him to help make up for being undersized at that position. This was a problem in the middle of the season when the Hornets were forced into a Kemba - Lin - PJ starting lineup that was just giving away too much size to compete for rebounds.

Playing off the ball is not his best attribute, since he seems to play better the more he has the ball in his hands. As a spot up shooter in the corners, he's just OK. Obviously there were time with all of Kemba - Lin and Batum were on the floor where Lin ended up as a spacer.

But he competes and defends most shooting guards adequately. There were only a handful of times this past year where he was clearly outmatched defensively from SG spot.

Having Lin as a 2nd ball handling combo guard next to a PG or point forward or both has a ton of advantages however, as we saw with being able to run multiple pick and roll sets with different players on both sides of the floor in the same possession. That's a huge luxury to have.

From what I've seen, Lin's position at PG or SG or starter or 6th man is less important than him having confidence, rhythm, and a role. When he is confident and in rhythm it doesn't matter where he plays, he'll make an impact. And when he is timid, thinking too much, out of rhythm he will struggle at either spot.

Lack of handles, high turnovers, lateral quickness hurting him as a PG, lack of consistent shooting and size hurting him as a SG - but neither enough to prevent him from playing well at either spot.

End of day, I view Lin as a lower end starting PG, top tier backup PG, great 6th man combo guard, dynamic enough when he is "on" to carry a team on his back to beat any team on any given night, but just not consistent enough to be that player over the length of a full season.

I think that those who want to see Lin run an offense as the only playmaker, ball handler with shooters and a roll man are probably being a bit selfish and naive. Good defensive teams would shut down that type of offense rather easily by gameplanning to take the ball out of Lin's hands, trapping him, picking him up full court, dropping under screens and daring him to beat them from the outside etc...

Anyway, that's my two cents based off watching him this season. If anyone who disagrees with my scouting report wants to debate me on my observations, go ahead, but I doubt I will respond. We'd just be going in circles. Posting a bunch of stats or talking about previous years isn't going to change my mind on him as a player.

[yosemiteben]

Excellent work there fats, well done.

[TinmanZBoy]

^
fat lever knows basketball

[bws94]

fats, you are saying he's best suited as a 6th man combo guard. I know you like Lin and think your comments are very fair. It's very close to mine, actually.

[qiantom]

I think Lin is best suited as a starting PG because he seems to do better when he has time to get into a rhythm. But I agree with fats' point that he needs another ball-handler to be effective against good defense.

[TinmanZBoy]

do you guys think Goran Dragic is a better ball handlers than Lin?

[fatlever]

do you guys think Goran Dragic is a better ball handlers than Lin?

Hard to say for me w/out watching Dragic every game for 82 games. I'd lean towards yes. Dragic's biggest plus is his amazing footwork and balance, plus I think he might have a quicker first step.

[TinmanZBoy]

do you guys think Goran Dragic is a better ball handlers than Lin?

Hard to say for me w/out watching Dragic every game for 82 games. I'd lean towards yes. Dragic's biggest plus is his amazing footwork and balance, plus I think he might have a quicker first step.

Dragic has better footwork and balance, but he does not have a quicker first step than lin, lin's first step probably is in the 90 percentiles in NBA, that's how he get by people... Goran is pretty fast running fast break, lin is faster... overall, lin has an edge on speed... Goran is a better mid-range shooter... on handles, i will give them a tie or slightly advantage to Goran, but Goran has been pretty loose with the ball when pressure came in this playoff...

[steady]

fatlever - great, fun post to read.

[bws94]

do you guys think Goran Dragic is a better ball handlers than Lin?

Hard to say for me w/out watching Dragic every game for 82 games. I'd lean towards yes. Dragic's biggest plus is his amazing footwork and balance, plus I think he might have a quicker first step.

Better footwork/balance. Lin's first step seems quicker to me, elite actually. Neither are handling whizzes however.

[hood30]

To non-Lin fans, how does the league see Lin? As a combo guard that can be a huge factor in wins with his versatility or mainly as a PnR starting guard? I think more of the league is seeing the former.

I see him as a solid point guard who is smart enough, tough enough and versatile enough to function effectively vs certain matchups as an undersized shooting guard. I guess that kinda makes him a combo guard, perfectly suited as a 6th man, that can play both guard spots, lead a 2nd unit in scoring or playmaking, fill in as a starter for either guard spot without any real loss in production, finish games at either guard spot.

There are very few players that don't have any holes in their games and Lin is certainly no exception. As a point guard he lacks the combination of quickness and ball handling that the best PGs in the league display. This limits his ability to face high pressure defenders, traps, presses and he occasionally has trouble beating his man off the dribble as a result.

As a point guard, he probably needs to have another strong ball handler in the lineup with him to be most effective, someone who can relieve the pressure at times.

His first instincts in halfcourt offense seems to be to hold the ball, wait for screen, meander around, around defenders into the lane looking for layups, contact or to dump the ball off to a big (after that man's defender has left). Basing an entire offense around this particular action would be fairly easy to scout and defend if a team gameplanned to take it away. However, he's one of the best in the league at this one particular action, good enough that some nights he because really difficult to defend without giving up fouls, layups or dunks to bigs.

Great at pushing the ball up the floor at attacking retreating defenders. Great a passing the ball ahead. This part of his game was under utilized by the Hornets many nights as the team stayed back to fight for defensive rebounds and with several bigs like Al, Hawes and Frank not ideally suiting to running the court on fast breaks.

The streaky outside shooting does not help pull defenders away or force them to go over screens, making easier to defend.

At shooting guard he would need to have some bigger players around him to help make up for being undersized at that position. This was a problem in the middle of the season when the Hornets were forced into a Kemba - Lin - PJ starting lineup that was just giving away too much size to compete for rebounds.

Playing off the ball is not his best attribute, since he seems to play better the more he has the ball in his hands. As a spot up shooter in the corners, he's just OK. Obviously there were time with all of Kemba - Lin and Batum were on the floor where Lin ended up as a spacer.

But he competes and defends most shooting guards adequately. There were only a handful of times this past year where he was clearly outmatched defensively from SG spot.

Having Lin as a 2nd ball handling combo guard next to a PG or point forward or both has a ton of advantages however, as we saw with being able to run multiple pick and roll sets with different players on both sides of the floor in the same possession. That's a huge luxury to have.

From what I've seen, Lin's position at PG or SG or starter or 6th man is less important than him having confidence, rhythm, and a role. When he is confident and in rhythm it doesn't matter where he plays, he'll make an impact. And when he is timid, thinking too much, out of rhythm he will struggle at either spot.

Lack of handles, high turnovers, lateral quickness hurting him as a PG, lack of consistent shooting and size hurting him as a SG - but neither enough to prevent him from playing well at either spot.

End of day, I view Lin as a lower end starting PG, top tier backup PG, great 6th man combo guard, dynamic enough when he is "on" to carry a team on his back to beat any team on any given night, but just not consistent enough to be that player over the length of a full season.

I think that those who want to see Lin run an offense as the only playmaker, ball handler with shooters and a roll man are probably being a bit selfish and naive. Good defensive teams would shut down that type of offense rather easily by gameplanning to take the ball out of Lin's hands, trapping him, picking him up full court, dropping under screens and daring him to beat them from the outside etc...

Anyway, that's my two cents based off watching him this season. If anyone who disagrees with my scouting report wants to debate me on my observations, go ahead, but I doubt I will respond. We'd just be going in circles. Posting a bunch of stats or talking about previous years isn't going to change my mind on him as a player.

One thing I agree with you is that Lin would be best to start alongside someone that can also handle the ball well since he' doesn't have elite ball-handling skills and many teams tend to try to pressure and trap him because of that....

I do feel Lin is better use as a starter simply because he's a rhythm player that needs shots and confidence..Playing him off the bench and quickly subbing him out because he started 0 for 3, just destroys his confidence...and this is the problem coming off the bench...There's a lot of pressure to make your first 2 or 3 field goal or the coach won't allow you to finish or play enough minutes.

By starting Lin,I wouldn't pair him with a smaller point guard but maybe a taller point-forward-type or a guy like Evan Turner..A guy that could guard wings with no problem while helping Lin with PG duty and ball handling.

Even a guy like Batum could do...as long as Batum doesn't completely take it upon himself to be the PG......Lin is also good at running through screen, catch the ball and drive to the basket, so he would indeed benefit from another strong ball-handler in the line-up.

[bws94]

@hood. Lin's playing patterns were to play 10-12 minutes straight after coming in around 4 minutes in the first quarter or 3rd quarter and he was rarely subbed because he missed a few shots.

I hope Lin works more on his handling footwork/blance during the off-season and mid-range moves and shots.

[steady]

You know, one thing I wish were possible, is for you Hornets fans who never have seen Lin start, to have seen a game where he really was in flow. I remember Christmas game 2013, when Rockets played Spurs the first year he was there. He played 34 minutes, only had 13 points, but he had 8 assists. The Rockets were a lot like the Hornets that year - everyone expected them to be at the bottom of the League. In that Christmas game, the Rockets beat the Spurs 111-98, with pace and balanced scoring

[KM6]

To non-Lin fans, how does the league see Lin? As a combo guard that can be a huge factor in wins with his versatility or mainly as a PnR starting guard? I think more of the league is seeing the former.

I see him as a solid point guard who is smart enough, tough enough and versatile enough to function effectively vs certain matchups as an undersized shooting guard. I guess that kinda makes him a combo guard, perfectly suited as a 6th man, that can play both guard spots, lead a 2nd unit in scoring or playmaking, fill in as a starter for either guard spot without any real loss in production, finish games at either guard spot.

There are very few players that don't have any holes in their games and Lin is certainly no exception. As a point guard he lacks the combination of quickness and ball handling that the best PGs in the league display. This limits his ability to face high pressure defenders, traps, presses and he occasionally has trouble beating his man off the dribble as a result.

As a point guard, he probably needs to have another strong ball handler in the lineup with him to be most effective, someone who can relieve the pressure at times.

His first instincts in halfcourt offense seems to be to hold the ball, wait for screen, meander around, around defenders into the lane looking for layups, contact or to dump the ball off to a big (after that man's defender has left). Basing an entire offense around this particular action would be fairly easy to scout and defend if a team gameplanned to take it away. However, he's one of the best in the league at this one particular action, good enough that some nights he because really difficult to defend without giving up fouls, layups or dunks to bigs.

Great at pushing the ball up the floor at attacking retreating defenders. Great a passing the ball ahead. This part of his game was under utilized by the Hornets many nights as the team stayed back to fight for defensive rebounds and with several bigs like Al, Hawes and Frank not ideally suiting to running the court on fast breaks.

The streaky outside shooting does not help pull defenders away or force them to go over screens, making easier to defend.

At shooting guard he would need to have some bigger players around him to help make up for being undersized at that position. This was a problem in the middle of the season when the Hornets were forced into a Kemba - Lin - PJ starting lineup that was just giving away too much size to compete for rebounds.

Playing off the ball is not his best attribute, since he seems to play better the more he has the ball in his hands. As a spot up shooter in the corners, he's just OK. Obviously there were time with all of Kemba - Lin and Batum were on the floor where Lin ended up as a spacer.

But he competes and defends most shooting guards adequately. There were only a handful of times this past year where he was clearly outmatched defensively from SG spot.

Having Lin as a 2nd ball handling combo guard next to a PG or point forward or both has a ton of advantages however, as we saw with being able to run multiple pick and roll sets with different players on both sides of the floor in the same possession. That's a huge luxury to have.

From what I've seen, Lin's position at PG or SG or starter or 6th man is less important than him having confidence, rhythm, and a role. When he is confident and in rhythm it doesn't matter where he plays, he'll make an impact. And when he is timid, thinking too much, out of rhythm he will struggle at either spot.

Lack of handles, high turnovers, lateral quickness hurting him as a PG, lack of consistent shooting and size hurting him as a SG - but neither enough to prevent him from playing well at either spot.

End of day, I view Lin as a lower end starting PG, top tier backup PG, great 6th man combo guard, dynamic enough when he is "on" to carry a team on his back to beat any team on any given night, but just not consistent enough to be that player over the length of a full season.

I think that those who want to see Lin run an offense as the only playmaker, ball handler with shooters and a roll man are probably being a bit selfish and naive. Good defensive teams would shut down that type of offense rather easily by gameplanning to take the ball out of Lin's hands, trapping him, picking him up full court, dropping under screens and daring him to beat them from the outside etc...

Anyway, that's my two cents based off watching him this season. If anyone who disagrees with my scouting report wants to debate me on my observations, go ahead, but I doubt I will respond. We'd just be going in circles. Posting a bunch of stats or talking about previous years isn't going to change my mind on him as a player.

You have some very good observations about Lin. His handle is no where near Kemba level for sure, he could definitely use some improvement there playing the PG position, but Lin is not an iso heavy player. He excels in fast break points; PnR by using his elite first step to get into the lane, or PnR finding the roll man under the basket for easy points; making high risk high reward open court passes for easy points; and creating easy looks for teammates with his ability to draw defenders away; attacking the basket and draw fouls like the best players in the league.

None of the above offensive tools of his require super elite ball handling, but he can most definitely improve his ball handle. But you also need to realize playing in Charlotte's offensive system, Lin is not fully utilizing all of his offensive skills, and by playing SG most of the time, he only gets to showcase his ability to penetrate, while his passing, PnR(no roll man) skills didn't get utilized, and because of the system Hornets runs, there isn't a lot of fast break opportunities either. However, he did improved his cutting and movement off the ball this year tremendously by playing 2 guard most of the time.

Saying he is adequate in defending a 2 guard is not a short come, but an advantage for him since his natural position is PG. How often do you find PG who can defend both the 1 and the 2 position. When defending opposing PGs, he owns most of them because of his size, and his tenacity and ability in being able to keep up with the best of them, and when needed, he can guard most SGs because his height and size.

We all have our own opinions, and my opinion is he is a very good starting level PG who is best at elevating his teammates rather than creating scoring opportunity for himself off the dribble. He can control the pace of the game, create easy scoring opportunities for his teammates and make the perfect pass most of the time and thus elevate the effectiveness of his teammates, unstoppable when playing PnR with a capable rolling big men(score himself or pass to roll man), beat any defender with a solid pick and his elite first step; he can also defend any PG in the league(very well against most of them, keep up with the best of them), defend SG when switching coverages or playing in a small ball lineup, being a two way player leaves no weakness in the lineup.

Sure you can use him as a backup or 6th men type of role, but he is more than capable in leading a winning team at the starting PG position. I know people don't like to talk about the number of games he started this season, calling it a small sample size, but people had been using the sample size cards since his breakout season in 2012. When he gets the chance to make calls and playing major minutes, he makes good things happen on the court. His "consistency" issue has little to do with his actual performance, but a lot to do with the role he was being assigned during those games.

His shooting % dipped this year, but we all know he just changed his shooting mechanic this past off season, it will improve as he gets the form down, but even with the drop in his shooting percentages, his true shooting % is still very good if not the best among all hornets players this year, and he always do extra well in big games(against Celtics, Raptors, Spurs, Cavs, Atlanta, etc) and it also showed during this playoff run(he was paramount in all 3 wins against Heat).

Whether he would ever get the chance to show his full potential, I wouldn't know, but if you look at his play objectively, I think you could see the talents are there. I do hope he can find a role this upcoming season to showcase his true worth, regardless of where he goes .

[phillycheese]

Starter vs 1st man off the bench makes big difference for this Coach. Emphasis on "for this coach". Why? - because it seems Cliff's rotations are always set in stone when it comes to Kenba's minutes. As starter you always get to start the game and the 3rd quarter. This more or less gives you 12 guaranteed minutes. It is much easier to get the 28 min or so that Lin needs to be effective if he starts. When has Cliff ever played Lin more than Kemba, not because they were short handed and he had to but because Lin was playing better? eg Atlanta in the playoffs had one game where Schroeder played 29 minutes and Teague 22 because Schroeder was tearing it up. I have not seen that here. Cliff has come on record saying he likes guys to know their roles and play them, so guys do not try to go outside their role to stay on the court longer. He does not seem to reward guys for wanting to do better, and has a preconceived notion of where guys fit even when they are injured and tired and cannot do what they can do under normal circumstances.

[2k15]

Starter vs 1st man off the bench makes big difference for this Coach. Emphasis on "for this coach". Why? - because it seems Cliff's rotations are always set in stone when it comes to Kenba's minutes. As starter you always get to start the game and the 3rd quarter. This more or less gives you 12 guaranteed minutes. It is much easier to get the 28 min or so that Lin needs to be effective if he starts. When has Cliff ever played Lin more than Kemba, not because they were short handed and he had to but because Lin was playing better? eg Atlanta in the playoffs had one game where Schroeder played 29 minutes and Teague 22 because Schroeder was tearing it up. I have not seen that here. Cliff has come on record saying he likes guys to know their roles and play them, so guys do not try to go outside their role to stay on the court longer. He does not seem to reward guys for wanting to do better, and has a preconceived notion of where guys fit even when they are injured and tired and cannot do what they can do under normal circumstances.

I didn't try very hard.

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400829043
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400874421
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400828561
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400828930

[phillycheese]

Starter vs 1st man off the bench makes big difference for this Coach. Emphasis on "for this coach". Why? - because it seems Cliff's rotations are always set in stone when it comes to Kenba's minutes. As starter you always get to start the game and the 3rd quarter. This more or less gives you 12 guaranteed minutes. It is much easier to get the 28 min or so that Lin needs to be effective if he starts. When has Cliff ever played Lin more than Kemba, not because they were short handed and he had to but because Lin was playing better? eg Atlanta in the playoffs had one game where Schroeder played 29 minutes and Teague 22 because Schroeder was tearing it up. I have not seen that here. Cliff has come on record saying he likes guys to know their roles and play them, so guys do not try to go outside their role to stay on the court longer. He does not seem to reward guys for wanting to do better, and has a preconceived notion of where guys fit even when they are injured and tired and cannot do what they can do under normal circumstances.

I didn't try very hard.

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400829043
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400874421
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400828561
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400828930

You need to read better - I said "not because they were short handed and he had to but because Lin was playing better".

[2k15]

Starter vs 1st man off the bench makes big difference for this Coach. Emphasis on "for this coach". Why? - because it seems Cliff's rotations are always set in stone when it comes to Kenba's minutes. As starter you always get to start the game and the 3rd quarter. This more or less gives you 12 guaranteed minutes. It is much easier to get the 28 min or so that Lin needs to be effective if he starts. When has Cliff ever played Lin more than Kemba, not because they were short handed and he had to but because Lin was playing better? eg Atlanta in the playoffs had one game where Schroeder played 29 minutes and Teague 22 because Schroeder was tearing it up. I have not seen that here. Cliff has come on record saying he likes guys to know their roles and play them, so guys do not try to go outside their role to stay on the court longer. He does not seem to reward guys for wanting to do better, and has a preconceived notion of where guys fit even when they are injured and tired and cannot do what they can do under normal circumstances.

I didn't try very hard.

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400829043
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400874421
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400828561
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400828930

You need to read better - I said "not because they were short handed and he had to but because Lin was playing better".

I gave you four games where Lin played as much as if not more than Kemba. Two of them he was coming off the bench.

[2k15]

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400828191
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400828259