Do we suck?

[yosemiteben]

...the difference between having a legitimate rim protecting center and frank kaminsky is enormous.

There are a lot of negatives that you can direct at Hibbert, but this season he is putting up top 5 rim protection stats so you might need to reframe this argument.

[GlenRiceARoni]

That quote says frank kaminsky yet you use Roy Hibbert's statistics

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit

[yosemiteben]

That quote says frank kaminsky yet you use Roy Hibbert's statistics

Well Frank isn't used as a center, and I interpreted your statement to imply that we fall off because we don't have a rim protecting center.

You also said Al was better defensively than Hibbert this season, which is not close to accurate.

[GlenRiceARoni]

Rim protection has actually become slightly overrated by the NBA community. While its clearly still important the worst rim protectors still only allow about 60% FG.

60% on contested 2 pointers, 0-3 feet from the basket is bad don't get me wrong.

But that is the equivalent of allowing 40% from the 3 point line.

If you have a lead footed big man like Hibbert, Kanter, Mozgov, etc they are compromising your defense and giving up wide open 3's constantly off the PNR.

We saw Kanter cost OKC the series vs GSW when Donovan tried to steal a few minutes and they got bombarded with 3s when kanter tried to guard the switches.

We saw Mozgov glued to the bench vs the Warriors two years ago coming off a 29 point, 11 reb performance because the Cavs determined he was completely compromising their defensive efforts when GSW went small subbing Iggy for Bogut.

We've seen opponent's bomb 3s on us all season in large part due to the minutes Hibbert is on the floor. The numbers get ugly when he is in at center as opponent's 3pt% skyrockets.

This is why zeller is so valuable. And guys like Nerlens Noel, Steven Adams, Tristan Thompson are so valuable and Andre Drummond types are so overrated.

Ideally you want a mobile big man who can guard the PNR without enormous rim protection sacrifices like the aforementioned.

Drummond types get lit up because they are lazy on PNR/switches and arent good at filtering through the fluff offenses throw at them designed to distract them from the real actions.

When Hibbert is run thru a PNR our defense is compromised. Either he has to drop back and protect the paint (giving up an open 3 by default) or he has to hedge and leave himself susceptible to fouls and completely eliminate his ability to protect the rim because hes too slow to get back in the play.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit

[fatlever]

As bad as Jefferson was on defense last year, at least visually, he still had a 99 DRTG, so lets not act like his defense was killing us last year. It wasn't. Al is so much better as a backup center than Hibbert. It's not even close. And I say that as someone who does not want Al back in any shape or form.

[GlenRiceARoni]

That quote says frank kaminsky yet you use Roy Hibbert's statistics

Well Frank isn't used as a center, and I interpreted your statement to imply that we fall off because we don't have a rim protecting center.

You also said Al was better defensively than Hibbert this season, which is not close to accurate.

Frank has, in fact, been used as a center and it did not work effectively due to his lack of rim protection and rebounding ability.

And if you check the stats Hibbert has not been good at all defensively as you suggest. And his offensive limitations are beyond absurd.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit

[yosemiteben]

Rim protection has actually become slightly overrated by the NBA community.

Weren't you just complaining that we don't have a rim protector? Seems like quite the pivot there.

Hibbert is a much, much superior paint defender, but yes he is a weak PNR defender (not sure he's any worse than Al) and that is a big problem with the way the league is trending.

Like I said, there are a lot of fair criticisms of Roy and our bench, but lack of rim protection is not one of them.

[fatlever]

But overall I agree with RiceRoni and many others who are dead set against the use of the slow lumbering centers that can't defend the pick and roll. Signing Hibbert thinking he was going to be able to help us defensively was a massive misjudgment on Cho's part. It was an overreaction to Whiteside. We saw for years what having a slow Jefferson did to our pick and roll defense. Why Hibbert? It was just a really dumb use of our money. Equally as dumb as resigning Sessions, knowing he can't shoot 3s and had lost a step. Two awful signings that ate up 11 mil in cap space, compounded for the move for Marco (who I like), which we could have gotten 75% of that value with Daniels and with a better PG, we wouldn't need Marco's passing as much. But Marco for 1st is the least of the things I'm annoyed with regarding the bench.

[yosemiteben]

I still disagree that the Sessions signing was predictably awful. Look at his numbers from the year before - 47.5% FG, 3:1 assist to TO ratio, played 82 games, and he was excellent when Wall went out. He's only 30, so he's not exactly at washed up vet status.

It hasn't worked out, but I don't think it was indefensible, especially if he himself was a backup plan and not a primary target, which I think is likely given the contract we gave him.

ETA: For me, Sessions's lack of on floor effectiveness is a real head scratcher. He seems very well suited for the role we have for him, yet on the floor he appears so indecisive, he misses easy bunnies around the basket that he's made his whole career, and the proof is in the pudding when it comes to how we perform when he plays. Last night in the 2nd half was the most timid and uncertain I've ever seen him, he looked completely shook.

[Braggins]

Sessions signing wasn't bad based on the numbers, but I think you can still argue it was bad based on fit. I mean, we needed shooting and defense from that spot more than anything and we knew he was not a good shooter and only average'ish at best on defense. It was a really lazy signing, as were all our offseason acquisitions.

[GlenRiceARoni]

Rim protection has actually become slightly overrated by the NBA community.

Weren't you just complaining that we don't have a rim protector? Seems like quite the pivot there.

Hibbert is a much, much superior paint defender, but yes he is a weak PNR defender (not sure he's any worse than Al) and that is a big problem with the way the league is trending.

Like I said, there are a lot of fair criticisms of Roy and our bench, but lack of rim protection is not one of them.

You just like arguing. No, I wasnt complaining about not having a rim protector. You just misread my entire series of posts.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit

[GlenRiceARoni]

This is the bottom line.

Paying Belly, Lamb, Sessions, Hibbert, AND Hawes midsize deals is a HUGE mistake.

It caps us out yet still leaves us with a horrendous bench.

If you're not willing to go into the luxury tax it is an absolute NECESSITY to spend on very good starting lineup with positional flexibility (which we clearly have).

Then you add 2-3 productive bench players MAX.

At least one starter or productive bench player needs to be on a rookie deal.

Then you roll with rookies, vet minimum guys, waiver wire ten day callups for the reg season.

Cho really missed the boat this summer. Instead of identifying one really good bench player and paying for that player, we tried to add a bunch of average vets on mid-sized deals. It started with the trade for Marco, who has been fine, but much more expensive than a rookie, who could have cracked our rotation (Brogdon, McCaw etc...) or retaining Troy Daniel for half of what Marco is making. Hibbert and Sessions could have been combined into one very solid bench player (a harder push to retain Lin or Lee). Lamb and Hawes could have been moved for picks or cap space. We could have bought a 2nd round pick (Brogdon, McCaw etc...). Or found some cheap vet min help or D-league callups and rolled thru them until we found a keeper.

The coach and GM need to get over this fear of playing young players and over-reliance on guys who are past their prime on bigger deals.

Right, all of this is pretty much in line with what im saying.

Instead of giving Hibbert and Sessions huge deals just combine them into one serviceable player. Hibbert is a replacement level player anyway for gods sake

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit

[TheKingofSting]

It was said to be a do or die summer for Cho with so many free agents. Well...


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[fatlever]

We are putting all the blame on Cho and some on Clifford, and they both deserve their fair share, but we can't let the players off the hook either. Only Kemba and Cody raised their game this year. Pretty much every one else on the team has been a disappointment this season.

[yosemiteben]

Rim protection has actually become slightly overrated by the NBA community.

Weren't you just complaining that we don't have a rim protector? Seems like quite the pivot there.

Hibbert is a much, much superior paint defender, but yes he is a weak PNR defender (not sure he's any worse than Al) and that is a big problem with the way the league is trending.

Like I said, there are a lot of fair criticisms of Roy and our bench, but lack of rim protection is not one of them.

You just like arguing. No, I wasnt complaining about not having a rim protector. You just misread my entire series of posts.

Cool, sorry. I saw you talking about the importance of having an adequate defensive center that prevents your defense from cratering (pointing out that none of Hibbert, Hawes, or Frank are up to Jefferson's standard of defense), so I responded to that.

Maybe a victim of tldr.

[Diop]

This is the bottom line.

Paying Belly, Lamb, Sessions, Hibbert, AND Hawes midsize deals is a HUGE mistake.

It caps us out yet still leaves us with a horrendous bench.

If you're not willing to go into the luxury tax it is an absolute NECESSITY to spend on very good starting lineup with positional flexibility (which we clearly have).

Then you add 2-3 productive bench players MAX.

At least one starter or productive bench player needs to be on a rookie deal.

Then you roll with rookies, vet minimum guys, waiver wire ten day callups for the reg season.

Cho really missed the boat this summer. Instead of identifying one really good bench player and paying for that player, we tried to add a bunch of average vets on mid-sized deals. It started with the trade for Marco, who has been fine, but much more expensive than a rookie, who could have cracked our rotation (Brogdon, McCaw etc...) or retaining Troy Daniel for half of what Marco is making. Hibbert and Sessions could have been combined into one very solid bench player (a harder push to retain Lin or Lee). Lamb and Hawes could have been moved for picks or cap space. We could have bought a 2nd round pick (Brogdon, McCaw etc...). Or found some cheap vet min help or D-league callups and rolled thru them until we found a keeper.

The coach and GM need to get over this fear of playing young players and over-reliance on guys who are past their prime on bigger deals.

Right, all of this is pretty much in line with what im saying.

Instead of giving Hibbert and Sessions huge deals just combine them into one serviceable player. Hibbert is a replacement level player anyway for gods sake

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit

I've never considered the makeup of the bench like this, what you're saying makes a lot of sense.

Highlights the value of a true 6th man which we were lucky to have last year with Lin.
I'm sure the league of lamb believe their boy could be that 6th man, I wish there was a way that could occur, but it doesn't seem likely.

[Braggins]

Cho really missed the boat this summer. Instead of identifying one really good bench player and paying for that player, we tried to add a bunch of average vets on mid-sized deals. It started with the trade for Marco, who has been fine, but much more expensive than a rookie, who could have cracked our rotation (Brogdon, McCaw etc...) or retaining Troy Daniel for half of what Marco is making. Hibbert and Sessions could have been combined into one very solid bench player (a harder push to retain Lin or Lee). Lamb and Hawes could have been moved for picks or cap space. We could have bought a 2nd round pick (Brogdon, McCaw etc...). Or found some cheap vet min help or D-league callups and rolled thru them until we found a keeper.

The coach and GM need to get over this fear of playing young players and over-reliance on guys who are past their prime on bigger deals.

Excellent post.

[GlenRiceARoni]

Yeah people say mid to late first round picks aren't worth much but the reality is they do have a lot of value.

You dont have to strike gold with Tony Parker or David Lee. You just need to land a rotation player. Then youve got him locked up at well below the market rate for veteran rotation players.

With the savings you can add a legit $10m bench guy instead of two worthless $5m guys

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit

[TheKingofSting]

Yeah people say mid to late first round picks aren't worth much but the reality is they do have a lot of value.

You dont have to strike gold with Tony Parker or David Lee. You just need to land a rotation player. Then youve got him locked up at well below the market rate for veteran rotation players.

With the savings you can add a legit $10m bench guy instead of two worthless $5m guys

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Hinkie has created a monster that will awaken in 2018 precisely 200 years after Mary Shelley published Frankenstein in 1818 A.D.
I don't think for a second this is coincidental as Hinkie is well educated and a fan of Classic British Lit

The Lakers picked Zubac like 32nd or something and he is killing it right now. MJ gets rid of all of our second rounders for gambling change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Eoghan]

It's hard to malign Sessions and other bench players too much given that they're sharing these minutes with lumbering sensation the Hawebbert. Give the bench a C that can play a modicum of P&R defense and it might look a little different. Either Hibbert of Hawes would've been fine as an emergency 3rd big to counter other big matchups in the postseason but these types can't see regular minutes night in and night out anymore.

I agree with others that we can't levy all the blame with the bench either. Marv's been shooting blanks after getting paid, Batum is making 1st option money but has 3rd option game, MKG still can't find a role on offense and only the oracle of Delphi knows how Lamb fits into anything.