I'm BACKKKKKKKK!!: The Steve Clifford Thread

[fatlever]

https://www.si.com/nba/hornets/news/steve-clifford-player-development

Good summary of Cliffs philosophy on playing time.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Snidely FC]

Such bull.
What’s left unsaid by Clifford is that this team regularly blocks young players with veterans (see new Terry Rozier contract) (see also Plumlee playing 35 mpg)
because a Tenet of the Old School is you win with veterans
and you play the “right way”
Are Rozier and Oubre and Plumlee “earning” playing time that is leading to wins?
Are the young guys learning how to win or lose?
This Old School philosophy about winning with veterans and hazing young players is a major reason I found Clifford’s rehire so discouraging.
Old School isn’t working maybe it’s time for MJ and Co to try something new

[JMAC3]

Such bull.
What’s left unsaid by Clifford is that this team regularly blocks young players with veterans (see new Terry Rozier contract) (see also Plumlee playing 35 mpg)
because a Tenet of the Old School is you win with veterans
and you play the “right way”
Are Rozier and Oubre and Plumlee “earning” playing time that is leading to wins?
Are the young guys learning how to win or lose?
This Old School philosophy about winning with veterans and hazing young players is a major reason I found Clifford’s rehire so discouraging.
Old School isn’t working maybe it’s time for MJ and Co to try something new

I think you have to find balance.

Running out a lineup of LaMelo- Bouknight- Pj- Kai and Mark every night is probably losing by 20+ most nights.

Someone like Plumlee who understands defense, where to be on offense, 5th in screen assists helps other players stay organized and play better. I am sure watching him and talking with him has helped Mark be successful.

Same as Terry, for as bad as many claim. He is still one of the few hornets who can get off a tough shot at the end of shotclocks. Not sure you want JT Thor and McGowens hoisting those shots up.

We are seeing some really solid flashes lately from McDaniels, McGowens, Mark, Theo.. that can be seen as wins. It is not all about guys playing 30 mins, chucking up 15 shots and losing playing bad basketball.

Paying Terry, in my opinion was better than just letting him walk for nothing. We still have nobody better to take his spot.

[Snidely FC]

Everything you say is true...if you're okay with Clifford being the coach

But I am just so confused.

It seemed like Kupchak was building a roster full of long, athletic, positionally flexible players around Lamelo. I was thinking wait till they get a couple years together and are running teams off the floor and defending with their length and athleticism and positional flexibility. What a modern idea!

But then they re-hire Cliff, who is out here championing Old School. Old School MJ. Old School Mitch. Old School earning playing time.

Why? Because there were disciplinary problems? Idk. Because he can teach them to earn minutes? Modern coaches can do that too.

So I'm reading Clifford going on about how great is the Old School approach to everything and I am wondering whether a modern coach with an approach to offensive and defensive sets that are not rooted in the 90s might be able to better utilize the length and athleticism and positional flexibility of the team's young players,

I understand Kai and Thor haven't looked good this year, but are there different schemes that might take advantage of Mark W, PJ, Kai, Thor, McD size athleticism and length, especially on the defensive end? Should this be one of the worst defensive teams in the league with that kind of length and athleticism on the roster? Clifford is already talking about Mark Williams shooting 3s. Why can't players be utilized to their strengths instead of turning every big into a stretch 4? What would the team offense look like if those long athletes were allowed to run wild with Lamelo, rather than plugged into Clifford's toilet bowl offense. We'll never see what might be possible with these young stallions because the team has an Old School owner and and Old School coach and offensive and defensive sets rooted in the Van Gundy family tree.

but at least Clifford''s teaching the younguns how to earn their playing time

again, if the team was winning I understand the Old School take, but the team isn't winning so why not play around with the young guys and see what else is possible? Why have they been constructing the roster this way if Old School is the Coach and approach they want?

Maybe I'm just way off base because all these young guys actually just suck, but it feels to me like these guys aren't getting a chance to play to their strengths, or to play through their mistakes and grow, and as it stands that feeling that the team and Mitch were actually building toward something long term and sustainable around a young Lamelo Ball has been dropped in favor of a backward move that doesn't fit the roster.

[Braggins]

This is why we can't have nice things.

One thing I do like about here, love about here (Charlotte) is that Mitch (Kupchak) is old school and nobody is more old school than Michael (Jordan).

[FroButtons]

.

Kinda this. I get holding players accountable (no matter age really) and making them earn what they get, but I don't understand how someone can be so rigid when it comes to coaching a team in this position.

This man's rotations are exactly the same EVERY SINGLE GAME. 2-3 minutes left in the first, Mark comes in. 4-5 minutes into the second, Mark comes out. 2-3 minutes left in the third, Mark comes in. 4-5 minutes into the fourth, Mark comes out. You scroll though the game log and Plumlee and Mark (or Nick) have the same exact minutes played every game.

That has nothing to do with earning anything. You're down 40, your rookie 1st round draft pick is playing well, shift your rotations a little bit to get him some more experience and more comfortable on an NBA floor. Call something different to get them more involved in a game when he's active and engaged.

This "philosophy" is just an excuse to cover at how bad someone is at adapting. Nobody's demanding 40 minutes a night. Nobody's demanding starter tomorrow. But it's insane that a young player has trouble breaking 20 minutes in games when they're playing well or it's a blowout for either side and the player in front of them is a 30+ year old journey man who's hitting free agency this summer.

[JMAC3]

I understand Kai and Thor haven't looked good this year, but are there different schemes that might take advantage of Mark W, PJ, Kai, Thor, McD size athleticism and length, especially on the defensive end?

He is trying to play Thor, but he essentially has no offensive game at all. He has hit a few open threes lately which is great, but you can't run any type of offensive actions for him. Same for Kai unless you use him as rim runner which is tough to do unless he is playing center which is our deepest position at this point.

McDaniels and Mark both trending to have better than expected seasons.

[HornetJail]

I understand Kai and Thor haven't looked good this year, but are there different schemes that might take advantage of Mark W, PJ, Kai, Thor, McD size athleticism and length, especially on the defensive end?

He is trying to play Thor, but he essentially has no offensive game at all. He has hit a few open threes lately which is great, but you can't run any type of offensive actions for him. Same for Kai unless you use him as rim runner which is tough to do unless he is playing center which is our deepest position at this point.

McDaniels and Mark both trending to have better than expected seasons.

Until one of Kai or Thor expands their offensive game, I don't think any of Mark, Nick, Kai, Thor, Plumlee should be playing together if you want a functional offense. That's A LOT of roster spots to use up on the center position. Thor is basically a 5 on offense though capable of guarding forwards, and none of the others can shoot.

Trim the fat. Plumlee and Nick should be traded, and let Mark and Kai fill all the center minutes, with Thor as the matchup dependent small-ball option. Everybody else on the team (well except DSJ I guess) is a threat to score and space the floor.

[luciano-davidwesley]

One thing I do like about here, love about here (Charlotte) is that Mitch (Kupchak) is old school and nobody is more old school than Michael (Jordan).

Good to see the coach is admitting the franchise is run like a 1980's old boys club.

[JMAC3]

I understand Kai and Thor haven't looked good this year, but are there different schemes that might take advantage of Mark W, PJ, Kai, Thor, McD size athleticism and length, especially on the defensive end?

He is trying to play Thor, but he essentially has no offensive game at all. He has hit a few open threes lately which is great, but you can't run any type of offensive actions for him. Same for Kai unless you use him as rim runner which is tough to do unless he is playing center which is our deepest position at this point.

McDaniels and Mark both trending to have better than expected seasons.

Until one of Kai or Thor expands their offensive game, I don't think any of Mark, Nick, Kai, Thor, Plumlee should be playing together if you want a functional offense. That's A LOT of roster spots to use up on the center position. Thor is basically a 5 on offense though capable of guarding forwards, and none of the others can shoot.

Trim the fat. Plumlee and Nick should be traded, and let Mark and Kai fill all the center minutes, with Thor as the matchup dependent small-ball option. Everybody else on the team (well except DSJ I guess) is a threat to score and space the floor.

I would rather trade Kai over Nick if anyone is interested. Has to be a few teams in the league looking for a developmental center. Toronto seems like a team that would love him.

At least with Nick I feel like I know I have two good centers. With Kai, feels like we still would need to sign a rotation center.

[fatlever]

One thing I do like about here, love about here (Charlotte) is that Mitch (Kupchak) is old school and nobody is more old school than Michael (Jordan).

Good to see the coach is admitting the franchise is run like a 1980's old boys club.

its a least refreshing to here what we've all known
- we dont rest players
- refuse to tank
- no euro scouting
- dont value paying for assistants, trainers, scouts
- not known for embracing analytics

i'm honestly shocked we shoot 3s lol

[SWedd523]

One thing I do like about here, love about here (Charlotte) is that Mitch (Kupchak) is old school and nobody is more old school than Michael (Jordan).

Good to see the coach is admitting the franchise is run like a 1980's old boys club.

its a least refreshing to here what we've all known
- we dont rest players
- refuse to tank
- no euro scouting
- dont value paying for assistants, trainers, scouts
- not known for embracing analytics

i'm honestly shocked we shoot 3s lol

Let me circle back to one of my main Hornets statements:

The Hornets will never be a competitive franchise with MJ as the owner.

[fatlever]

Back in my day I won 6 title with mid range turnaround jumpers, and I did it on no sleep, playing poker til 6am, on two bad ankles and after playing 36 holes of golf earlier in the day while smoking cigars. And if anyone dared question my methods I punched them in the face. These kids today are pussies. - Jordan, probably.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[JDR720]

The old school thing is definitely what's causing everyone to always be hurt.

Stan Van Gundy on twitter openly wondered why players today get hurt all the time despite "back in the day" they didn't and teams didn't even have trainers.

[UNCNYC]

I always thought we should give Becky Hammon or Dawn Staley a chance to coach us. Cuz these dudes aint it lol.

[UNCNYC]

I was serious about wanting us to give either of those ladies a try as our new head coach. I see no point why a woman should not be given a chance as head couch if she qualifies for the position. I think either of those ladies could potentially do a good job.

[Diop]

Pops said Becky would be a decent nba coach, that’s enough references for me

Also helps balance some of the miles press

[fatlever]

has there ever been a team this bad where the coach made zero lineup changes during season that werent dictated by injury?
i realize the options are limited, but its kinda odd
cliff has had his preferred starting lineup lately and we are still terrible. that unit has played 2nd most mins and is -4.6, so its not like they've been good together.

[JMAC3]

has there ever been a team this bad where the coach made zero lineup changes during season that werent dictated by injury?
i realize the options are limited, but its kinda odd
cliff has had his preferred starting lineup lately and we are still terrible. that unit has played 2nd most mins and is -4.6, so its not like they've been good together.

The only thing he could really do is start Mark, what other options are there?

[fatlever]

Like I said, options are limited...

But as long as we are supposedly trying to win, if I were coach, I would try something... anything.

The lineup of Melo, terry, mcd, pj, Mason is 3rd most in mins and has a plus rating.

Anything is better than jamming a fork in a socket over and over

Melo, terry, mcd, pj, mason
Melo, dsj, gordon, pj, Mason
Melo, terry, gordon, pj, Mark
Melo, terry, gordon, mcd, pj
Melo, terry, mcd, pj, Mark

Just try something else...


Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM Forums mobile app