I'm BACKKKKKKKK!!: The Steve Clifford Thread

Post #421 » by **JDR720** » Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:05 am

Cliff is a likeable guy, but he has years of evidence to show that he isn't a good coach here. Not including his time in Orlando.

It'd be typical Hornets/Bobcats fashion to finally have what seems to be a competent squad and hopefully a good GM and then to keep around one of the dinosaurs of Hornets/Bobcats MJ era.

Can Cliff or let him be an advisor like Mitch and let the new GM/Owners get their own guy.

lmcguir15 · Post #422 » by **lmcguir15** » Fri Feb 16, 2024 1:31 pm

GoBobs wrote:How much can these guys know as far as X's and O's in our system. He probably just told them to get out there and feel it out and it's the best basketball we have seen all year.

In the last postgame Cliff mentioned that Mann commented something to the effect of, when I was in OKC we had hundreds of plays and only ran 1/3 of them, can you tell me which third is actually important? So, there is some element of just guys who care and have a higher IQ at play here.

vorbis · Post #423 » by **vorbis** » Fri Feb 16, 2024 2:27 pm

Clifford is definitely competent
(which is more than you can say for some other Charlotte coaches over the years *cough*Ham Biscuit*cough*Mike Dunlap*cough*)
but he is nowhere close to a difference maker.

if you keep him beyond this year there had better be a sunsetting plan for him. he won't be the coach of the next Hornets playoff team. one way or another. that's my firm belief.

I think there's a world where he still has a role in the organization, to be sure. but the team will need a fresh voice going forward. all the best to him.

Post #424 » by **yosemiteben** » Fri Feb 16, 2024 4:21 pm

I don't know what to make about judging coaches at this point. I could be convinced that coaches can make the difference between a good and bad team and also could be convinced that coaches really don't fundamentally impact winning at all.

I fully expected ATL to take a huge leap under Snyder, and they're as bad as they were before. I was sure he was a great coach, now I'm not sure if the issue is he's not a good coach or if it doesn't matter one way or the other.

lmcguir15 · Post #425 » by **lmcguir15** » Fri Feb 16, 2024 10:46 pm

yosemiteben wrote:I don't know what to make about judging coaches at this point. I could be convinced that coaches can make the difference between a good and bad team and also could be convinced that coaches really don't fundamentally impact winning at all.

I fully expected ATL to take a huge leap under Snyder, and they're as bad as they were before. I was sure he was a great coach, now I'm not sure if the issue is he's not a good coach or if it doesn't matter one way or the other.

Definitely think good coaching matters and makes a difference, it's just only the elite coaches that make appreciable differences. I fully believe under different stewardship the Heat aren't as good as they've been and that is due in large part to Spo. For coaches 15-30 a lot of it is what you're able to put in the floor. Monty made the finals with Suns and Detroit is hapless. Which is in part why I'm so pro Bud. He's been an impeccable regular season coach in multiple places.

Bassman · Post #426 » by **Bassman** » Sat Feb 17, 2024 2:10 am

I believe Budenholzer is the most qualified coaching candidate available now. Would love to see such a hire for this team. Having said that, the President, GM and owners may not like his approach/philosophy/beard etc. There was a reason the Bucks tossed him after the playoff blunder, despite his successes there. Maybe the players were getting ground down and made that known to management. Coaches DO make a difference IMO in three key areas; player relationship/motivation, game management and player development. Additionally their ability to manage their assistants and staff is important. Clifford seems to do well with player relationships, but his game management is awful and player development has never been a strength.

HornetJail · Post #427 » by **HornetJail** » Sat Feb 17, 2024 4:29 pm

Bassman wrote:I believe Budenholzer is the most qualified coaching candidate available now. Would love to see such a hire for this team. Having said that, the President, GM and owners may not like his approach/philosophy/beard etc. There was a reason the Bucks tossed him after the playoff blunder, despite his successes there. Maybe the players were getting ground down and made that known to management. Coaches DO make a difference IMO in three key areas; player relationship/motivation, game management and player development. Additionally their ability to manage their assistants and staff is important. Clifford seems to do well with player relationships, but his game management is awful and player development has never been a strength.

Schnall saw Budenholzer firsthand as an owner of the Hawks. He was still there when they let Bud walk away, but they had a successful 5-year run, and we just need someone that will lead a turnaround, even if he isn't necessarily the guy to put a contender over the top

UNCNYC · Post #428 » by **UNCNYC** » Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:28 am

yosemiteben wrote:I don't know what to make about judging coaches at this point. I could be convinced that coaches can make the difference between a good and bad team and also could be convinced that coaches really don't fundamentally impact winning at all.

I fully expected ATL to take a huge leap under Snyder, and they're as bad as they were before. I was sure he was a great coach, now I'm not sure if the issue is he's not a good coach or if it doesn't matter one way or the other.

What I find I like most about coaches are coaches that are FREE FLOWING. Coaches that OVER COACH or are too SYSTEM LIKE I do not like. I like to leave as much to the talent as possible. Just play the right players. Especially in the NBA. In the NFL I prefer coaches who have more of a game plan. In basketball only time I need a game plan is if a team is throwing something unexpected or at the end of the game.

Post #429 » by **fatlever** » Thu Feb 29, 2024 5:29 pm

Watch on YouTube

This video cracked me up. This guy does this for all the coaches so take it with a grain of salt, still hilarious though.

Post #430 » by **fatlever** » Fri Mar 1, 2024 9:15 pm

my guess... odds on cliff returning now at 50%

lmcguir15 · Post #431 » by **lmcguir15** » Sat Mar 2, 2024 12:58 pm

fatlever wrote:my guess... odds on cliff returning now at 50%

Apparently, per Rod Boone in one of his latest articles said that the Hornets have to decide on Clifford by 4/30. I wasn't aware of this detail in his contract I guess.

The way they finish out the season will be important, which 10 games ago was unthinkable. Just please don't settle for safety and mediocrity. Clifford has had ample chance to prove himself with this organization and as respected as he may be, has shown time and time again he's not a coach that finds himself in high leverage playoff games.

MasterIchiro · Post #432 » by **MasterIchiro** » Sat Mar 2, 2024 4:17 pm

My hope is that they hired Peterson midstream in order to create more runway for a coaching search.

I also believe Kupchak had a soft spot rehiring him after being tasked with firing him after his first stint here. And I don't believe Kupchak would've agreed to fire Clifford mid-season while feeling comfortable stepping down at age 70 after the bulk of the work was completed at the trade deadline.

There is now someone in place who can re-home Clifford after declining his option. He got 2 years of rope and doesn't have the portfolio to justify another year with the group.

I see the new front office wanting to start fresh and for the new group to learn under a different coach, or else risk having to unlearn his system. That's harder to do if you prolong it.

MasterIchiro · Post #433 » by **MasterIchiro** » Sat Mar 2, 2024 4:19 pm

That said, I preferred Borrego between the two. It was a mistake to fire him given the Clifford hire. They had a better plan in mind and Kenny Atkinson set back the transition to modern basketball on both sides of the ball. 2 years is more than enough.

MasterIchiro · Post #434 » by **MasterIchiro** » Sat Mar 2, 2024 4:22 pm

It would make zero sense to overhaul the roster, golden parachute the vet (multiple championship) GM only to keep a coach as the lone survivor, especially given his record these past 2 seasons injury or not.

Change everything except the coach? I can't really fathom it. It's peak negativity to think this way.

Post #435 » by **yosemiteben** » Wed Mar 6, 2024 4:30 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:It would make zero sense to overhaul the roster, golden parachute the vet (multiple championship) GM only to keep a coach as the lone survivor, especially given his record these past 2 seasons injury or not.

Change everything except the coach? I can't really fathom it. It's peak negativity to think this way.

It's not peak negativity, it's recognizing a possibility based on comments like this from our new guy:

Read on Twitter

And I get it, he's a relationship guy and he's not going to come in and alienate our current head coach given their past history, and I agree that it is unlikely that Cliff stays on as head coach after this year. I don't view it as completely impossible, however.

Post #436 » by **JDR720** » Wed Mar 6, 2024 4:36 pm

There's like a 75% chance Clifford is back.

Which is 75% too high.

Bassman · Post #437 » by **Bassman** » Wed Mar 6, 2024 4:54 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:It would make zero sense to overhaul the roster, golden parachute the vet (multiple championship) GM only to keep a coach as the lone survivor, especially given his record these past 2 seasons injury or not.

Change everything except the coach? I can't really fathom it. It's peak negativity to think this way.

It's not peak negativity, it's recognizing a possibility based on comments like this from our new guy:

Read on Twitter

And I get it, he's a relationship guy and he's not going to come in and alienate our current head coach given their past history, and I agree that it is unlikely that Cliff stays on as head coach after this year. I don't view it as completely impossible, however.

This did NOT make my day. Come on Peterson…save the plaudits for Cliff’s retirement press conference in April.

Rays Pompadour · Post #438 » by **Rays Pompadour** » Wed Mar 6, 2024 7:34 pm

Advisor. That's what Clifford should be. A mature voice in an immature world, a plodder, a process guy. You need those in every organization.

But my gut says the organization will give Clifford a try with a full, healthy roster, meaning a two-year extension.

Rich4114 · Post #439 » by **Rich4114** » Wed Mar 6, 2024 9:34 pm

Rays Pompadour wrote:Advisor. That's what Clifford should be. A mature voice in an immature world, a plodder, a process guy. You need those in every organization.

But my gut says the organization will give Clifford a try with a full, healthy roster, meaning a two-year extension.

Delete this idea

Post #440 » by **JDR720** » Wed Mar 6, 2024 10:05 pm

The year is 2030. Charlotte have turned Miller into Indiana Paul George, Melo had another surgery because his ankles are broke... again and Mark is a backup PF because his back was operated on, causing him to lose 6 inches of height.

And Steve Clifford, our all-time winningest and losingest coach, is having a post-game presser talking about defense and playing the right way.

As we are currently in 16th place in the East, because Memphis and Minnesota moved East due to expansion and the new expansion teams drafted Mann and Miles, who we left unprotected so Miles could move to Vegas with his wife (who he hasn't hit in over 1.5 years).