NBA Message boards in the 80's

[dhsilv2]

I agree more with Capn'O: I think being prone to stats is a natural tendency, and basketball cards filled that inborn desire. Kind of tangential to what you're saying, though...

Not trying to start a philosophical argument...

Not sure we're speaking different thing. It was just for SOOOOOOOOOO long, we just didn't know who so many guys were on bad teams. We got 1 national game a year for some teams. So our ONLY knowledge when a trade or something happened were those stats. It was just all we had to go on.

I was speaking to the cause and effect relationship in your first sentence. Based on your responses, it seems clear I was right that this was tangential to what you were saying. To be clear, I agree with the rest of what you've written. In that sense, you're right that we're not speaking different things.

I see what you're saying. I guess I was kinda also adding that we sorta HAD to learn to know players by stats as we couldn't know some guys from film. So now as we get older, it's just more natural to read stats than it might be for someone 20. Not that I disagree that we all have a tendency in general to want to see stats to quantify our sight too.

[scrabbarista]

Hey, anyone else remember books?


Those were awesome.

[JonFromVA]

Yeah, Jon. I had the baseball encyclopedia too and wowed my peers with my knowledge!

It made mornings exciting.

To that effect, the papers were also your main source of stats documentation until that year's sports cards came out the following season and the papers would only show your league leaders. Which is why sports cards boomed during that time. People had some access to national games but not complete so cards supplemented that for people who wanted a bigger taste. Of course, with those you were only getting basic stats but the stats were actually a big part of it.

It was a pretty big deal when all of a sudden you could go to nba.com and look up anyone.

So these guys on old message boards... they just didn't have a whole lot of data to go by. I remember a lot of these proto advanced stats getting talked about in the early 2000s on the usenet boards. Some of the bigger nerds on the boards were developing efficiency measures in real time. Maybe tsherkin can weigh in there because the Raptors board was particularly prolific in that way iirc.

One of the reasons those of us who grew up on basketball cards are prone to stats. That's really how we first knew players outside of the mega stars who got most of the national games. The better you were with reading a stat sheet the better you understood a trade.

Totally. That said, I recently revisited the trade that sent Charles Smith to NYK in '92. They were just coming off an exhilarating series against the Bulls where it really looked like we had a shot at beating them and running to the title. While we were losing Xavier McDaniel, Knicks fans were by and large thrilled to be bringing in a 20 point scorer next to Ewing. But it didn't work out. Smith never really found a role with the Knicks and while they did make the finals in '94 it was almost in spite of Smith. Then, of course, the '93 Bulls series where he couldn't hit a contested layup to push Game 7.

So I watched some tape of Smith on the Clippers and it hit me. Why the hell did anyone think this would work? First of all, he was clearly a power forward and the Knicks kept Oakley for this trade. He didn't have the handles to be a small forward nor the speed to keep up with better small forwards on defense. But second, most of his points came on the break or otherwise assisted. He wasn't a halfcourt creator, so trading Jackson and slowing the game down was obviously going to hinder his impact with the team. X-Man, a true small forward, was a FAR better fit even if he was starting to age.

And it hit me again - we have FAR more access to tape of Charles Smith on the Clippers now than we would have had at the time. Nobody was watching a late night Clippers game to check up on Charles Smith. You'd only know about him because of his basketball card. Fans were really riding blinds in comparison in how we watched the game. It was easier to sell narratives because that's all we had.

Even with all the resources available, fans are still guilty of judging players by box score stats, but everyone starts somewhere.

There are plenty of people who've watched Charles Smith throughout his college and early NBA career, they just might not had made it to the Knicks forum.

Fan bases will also cling to a hope of what might be.

[Capn'O]

We used to care about the allstar game because it was our only chance to really see a lot of players. Maybe YOU stayed up the ONE time a year a trash team was on national TV on the west coast. But lets be real, nobody made sure to see everyone of those games. So an allstar like Richmond was a guy nobody had seen play since his warriors days on SAC....other than the allstar game. And fans would form their view of his game based on those games.

Correct, which in turn made players care more about the game. This was your big chance to make an impression. Whereas, I can watch DeRozan Bulls highlights or full games for days if I want to now.

[dhsilv2]

We used to care about the allstar game because it was our only chance to really see a lot of players. Maybe YOU stayed up the ONE time a year a trash team was on national TV on the west coast. But lets be real, nobody made sure to see everyone of those games. So an allstar like Richmond was a guy nobody had seen play since his warriors days on SAC....other than the allstar game. And fans would form their view of his game based on those games.

Correct, which in turn made players care more about the game. This was your big chance to make an impression. Whereas, I can watch DeRozan Bulls highlights or full games for days if I want to now.

I kinda agree that players cared more. But those games were still utter trash even then. They were better than today mind you...but especially when the benches got in there or when guys were trying to get a huge dunk or ally oop...guys just moved aside to put on a show.

Which we see with guys from 86 complaining about just that with Dr J in this very thread

[dhsilv2]

Hey, anyone else remember books?


Those were awesome.

Eh...kinda sucked.

But at the same time, the first time I had to get a book from the library in middle school, it was a book on Wilt Chamberlain that I think was published late 60's early 70's. Turns out before we were all talking on message boards, people used to write long form about these guys.

[Capn'O]

We used to care about the allstar game because it was our only chance to really see a lot of players. Maybe YOU stayed up the ONE time a year a trash team was on national TV on the west coast. But lets be real, nobody made sure to see everyone of those games. So an allstar like Richmond was a guy nobody had seen play since his warriors days on SAC....other than the allstar game. And fans would form their view of his game based on those games.

Correct, which in turn made players care more about the game. This was your big chance to make an impression. Whereas, I can watch DeRozan Bulls highlights or full games for days if I want to now.

I kinda agree that players cared more. But those games were still utter trash even then. They were better than today mind you...but especially when the benches got in there or when guys were trying to get a huge dunk or ally oop...guys just moved aside to put on a show.

Which we see with guys from 86 complaining about just that with Dr J in this very thread

Sure. It was rarely a good game. There's just even less incentive for players to make it so now.

[dhsilv2]

Correct, which in turn made players care more about the game. This was your big chance to make an impression. Whereas, I can watch DeRozan Bulls highlights or full games for days if I want to now.

I kinda agree that players cared more. But those games were still utter trash even then. They were better than today mind you...but especially when the benches got in there or when guys were trying to get a huge dunk or ally oop...guys just moved aside to put on a show.

Which we see with guys from 86 complaining about just that with Dr J in this very thread

Sure. It was rarely a good game. There's just even less incentive for players to make it so now.

I feel like we used to get a young guy every few years who wanted to prove himself. AI is the first guy who comes to mind. Now...you don't even have that. But the vets often were just there to go through the motions...maybe a few guys like an MJ or a Kobe/Wade type would want to get aggressive. Maybe Bird or Magic got competitive? Not sure if I've rewatched any of these allstar games recently enough. And those, especially in the mid 80's were before my time.

[jkvonny]

Haha!
Yep. You know.

Sounds about right. Very late 80s and 90s.

And I'll tell you what... looking back, it was an AMAZING feeling.

You never knew what to expect.

I vividly remember my surprise when, in the 1994 All-Star weekend, I got the sunday newspapers and saw the East starters:

Shaq
Derrick Coleman
Pippen
Kenny Anderson
BJ Armstrong

I was like,

"Who are Coleman and Anderson?"

And, most importantly... "how the heck is BJ Armstrong an All-Star?"

I remember seeing a bunch of Bulls games, and never thought Armstrong was THAT good...

Cocky lil guy who can shoot the 3 ball.
He is from the midwest, too. Played for the Iowa Hawkeyes in college.
The Chicago fans loved him.

The Reggie Miller of the Bulls. lol. JK

[Edrees]

Can you explain to me how this existed? The internet was around in the 80s? Where exactly was this posted and found?

[jkvonny]

Can you explain to me how this existed? The internet was around in the 80s? Where exactly was this posted and found?

Proto-internet was around during parts of the '80s, early '90s. In it's infancy. Similar to file sharing, I guess you can say?
Nothing much like it is today, very basic, archaic, prototype, primitive, developmental stages, non mainstream, etc.

Read the whole thread and it will make sense to you. Takes too long to explain it all. lol

[GSWFan1994]

Can you explain to me how this existed? The internet was around in the 80s? Where exactly was this posted and found?

A couple of months ago I read that the military had internet in the mid-60s... I mean, a very basic, rudimentary version of it, obviously.

Some countries had it in the 80s, in colleges, IT companies and so on.

As the post above says, read the whole thread, it's definitely worthwhile!

[miamiheat319]

Maybe open the paper to scour box scores.

Just saying this makes me feel really old.

The idea of having to wait until you got the newspaper in the morning to know the stats for games out of your region seems.........so strange to me.

Sounds kind of cool though.

Also, there were NBA magazines, many of them. I used to buy everything I saw, it was very cheap. There was even the Slam Magazine here, somehow it was imported and I bought dozens of them, even manage to subscribe it for a few years. Still got my collection somewhere in the house.

Cheers!

great stories! this may be a dumb question but were the magazines translated to portuguese or in english?

loving the stories from everyone else too. i'll add i remember going to the library when i was in school and renting player biographies. that was another good way to learn about players

[GSWFan1994]

Hey, anyone else remember books?


Those were awesome.

I have a collection of roughly 30/35 basketball books, mind you!

And dozens more in digital format...

And tell you what, all of them are in english language... meaning, I had to import all of them from the USA!

Love books. I have thousands in the house. From many different topics. One of my favourite hobbies.

Oh, and before I forget: remember when you told me, in another post, that you sent me a PM? I didn't receive it, just checked my inbox... could you send it again, please?

[GSWFan1994]

Haha!
Yep. You know.

Sounds about right. Very late 80s and 90s.

And I'll tell you what... looking back, it was an AMAZING feeling.

You never knew what to expect.

I vividly remember my surprise when, in the 1994 All-Star weekend, I got the sunday newspapers and saw the East starters:

Shaq
Derrick Coleman
Pippen
Kenny Anderson
BJ Armstrong

I was like,

"Who are Coleman and Anderson?"

And, most importantly... "how the heck is BJ Armstrong an All-Star?"

I remember seeing a bunch of Bulls games, and never thought Armstrong was THAT good...

I had this thought while reading your comment.

I don't believe the rumour that MJ was forced to retire by Stern because of his gambling, but if you imagine some kind of backroom power struggle between Stern and Jordan, then you can imagine Stern pulling strings to prove to Jordan that the league made him and not vice versa. Hence, delusionally: "See, we can make BJ Armstrong a star, just like we made you a star."

As I said, I don't believe any of this, but it's an interesting idea.

I mean, the dude was clearly not an All-Star... starter...

Yes, I don't believe it either. I think the motive is his father's death, it's pretty clear to me. That caused a huge effect on him. As far as I know, he was very close to his father.

As for Armstrong, it's very strange indeed, but when you take into account the All-Stars starters were determined by fan voting, and that Chicago was overachieving greatly that season (Jordan had just retired), it could be explained that way. Also, Horace Grant was voted in as a reserve as well.

[GSWFan1994]

Haha!
Yep. You know.

Sounds about right. Very late 80s and 90s.

And I'll tell you what... looking back, it was an AMAZING feeling.

You never knew what to expect.

I vividly remember my surprise when, in the 1994 All-Star weekend, I got the sunday newspapers and saw the East starters:

Shaq
Derrick Coleman
Pippen
Kenny Anderson
BJ Armstrong

I was like,

"Who are Coleman and Anderson?"

And, most importantly... "how the heck is BJ Armstrong an All-Star?"

I remember seeing a bunch of Bulls games, and never thought Armstrong was THAT good...

Cocky lil guy who can shoot the 3 ball.
He is from the midwest, too. Played for the Iowa Hawkeyes in college.
The Chicago fans loved him.

The Reggie Miller of the Bulls. lol. JK

Armstrong was one of those classic cases of guys who made the All-Star team once, and never sniffed again... like Mo Williams, for example. Dozens of guys like that.

Also, Coleman and Anderson were still young when they made it, then it never happened again as well. Good, above average careers for both, but they surely underachieved relative to their talent, no?

Cheers.

[PistolPeteJR]

Maybe not as impressive as the OP, here are the GB on June 1, 2002

https://web.archive.org/web/20020601193258/http://realgm.com/boards/viewforum.php?forum=6&38791

Too bad we can't click on these threads, and realgm's current database starts from 2008.

Also props to Ostertag for donating a kidney to his dying sister. He played four more seasons after that.

Whatcha mean? I can click on the threads.

[GSWFan1994]

The idea of having to wait until you got the newspaper in the morning to know the stats for games out of your region seems.........so strange to me.

Sounds kind of cool though.

Also, there were NBA magazines, many of them. I used to buy everything I saw, it was very cheap. There was even the Slam Magazine here, somehow it was imported and I bought dozens of them, even manage to subscribe it for a few years. Still got my collection somewhere in the house.

Cheers!

great stories! this may be a dumb question but were the magazines translated to portuguese or in english?

loving the stories from everyone else too. i'll add i remember going to the library when i was in school and renting player biographies. that was another good way to learn about players

It depends on the magazine. Usually they were imported:

- Slam was definitely the original edition, in english then. It still surprises me to this day how they were able to import the magazine from the USA to Brazil (and mind you, not in a capital, big city, but distribute it to the smallest cities around the state - it must have been quite a demand back then)... and tell you what, you could find the magazine in multiple places, like even in a gas station in the middle of the road!

I still have my Slam collection somewhere in the house. I remember the first one I got, it was with Grant Hill on the cover. Rookie Grant Hill! It was issue number 7 IIRC.

Later on I managed to do a subscription of the magazine. Do you imagine how I did it? I asked for like 10 dollars from my father, sent it via letter to the USA, and voila... 3 months later a magazine was delivered at my father's house. They really kept their word, gotta give them that. And I had this subscription for like 5, 6 years.

- There were national (portuguese brazilian printed) magazines, yes. I remember it quite clearly. Man, the NBA was such a fever during that time. I started playing basketball when I was 12, and by the time I was 16/17, now in high school, I remember a guy who used to play with us who had a Charlotte Hornets logo tattooed on his back.... and I kid you not, he told everyone he was planning on tattooing all the team logos on his back, lol. I wonder what he's up to nowadays, that was like 30 years ago.

- There were also european imported magazines. I remember one which was in portuguese language. Now bear in mind: portuguese, and brazilian portuguese are different languages, very similar, yet with different meaning for words, let me give you 3 examples:

- "Cacetinho" means "french bread" in portuguese, but it means "little dick" (slang) in brazilian portuguese.

- In Portugal, "embaraçada" means "pregnant"; in Brazil, "embaraçada" means "embarrassed".

- "Rabo da bicha" means "end of the line" in portuguese (rabo = end, bicha = line), but in brazilian portuguese it means "homo's ass" (rabo = ass, bicha = slang for homossexual).

Imagine the confusion reading the magazine...

I remember an article about the Chicago Bulls, and in a certain part it said something like this: "this player is on the rabo da bicha on their rotation, it will be very difficult for him to overcome that situation"



I just took a great trip down memory lane...

[infinite11285]

Great find OP. Although, it makes me wonder who will be reading our posts +40 years from now

[tsherkin]

Can you explain to me how this existed? The internet was around in the 80s? Where exactly was this posted and found?

Networked communication well predates the late 90s. Universities, libraries, DARPAnet... HTML debuted around 93 if memory serves but AOL and CompuServe and the like also predate that.

War Games, a movie released in 1983, had modems and internet connections. They were just slow as all hell.