Where do you Rank Scottie Pippen in 2024 Season

[picc]

I feel like comparing him in any way to Kawhi is a good way to communicate that you dont actually remember Pippen and are just saying things to participate.

The similarities are that they both played defense. Thats it. And even the type of defense they played was very different. Saying Pippen is Kawhi lite is like saying Pippen is Jordan lite. Those statements make an equal amount of sense. You could use Ben Simmons and it would make more sense than Kawhi would.

If you dont really know much about something, dont feel like you HAVE to two cents it. There’s plenty of players and topics i’m ignorant about. No shame in it. I just dont talk about them. And hopefully I can learn more through the discussion.

[SportsGuru08]

https://eu.theledger.com/story/news/2000/06/01/pippen-is-catalyst-portland-s/8096155007/

1. The article you cited admits that the Blazers were loaded, thus proving my point.

2. They won Game 2 in a blowout with Rasheed Wallace and Steve Smith taking charge in the third quarter to blow the game open. They won Game 6 with Scottie shooting 1 for 6 with Smith and Bonzi Wells leading the way. So this claim about Pippen being the catalyst is just plain wrong.

3. Where was this great leadership in Game 7 when his teammates needed him most? Where was Scottie all 4th quarter? Oh right, he was standing around shrinking from the spotlight.

The fact is Scottie was gift-wrapped the most loaded roster in the league at that time and couldn't even make the NBA Finals.

The leading scorer average 16.4 ppg.. That was good for 42nd best in the NBA that season.

You are really hung up on this as if this proves anything. The reason why is because they had so many guys who could give you 20-25 on any given night, they didn't need any of their guys to average more than that.

Nine different players would be the the high-scorer in a game for the Blazers over the course of that season. The Lakers had only three different players lead them and only a handful of times was Shaquille O'Neal NOT the high scorer all season.

And to repeat, the Blazers had a higher ORTG than the Lakers in 2000.

You can spin it however you like; that was a stacked roster.

[og15]

Probably 6-10 overall. He'd be an elite defender - not just good, but top of the league elite. That has a lot of value by itself. He'd also be a solid all-around offensive player, though he couldn't maintain the volume + efficiency of the top guys. So he couldn't single-handedly carry an offense like Jokic or Doncic.

Replace Wiggins with him and Golden State has the best record in the WC and is the title favorite.

You can replace Wiggins with a lot of current players not at Pippen’s level and have that result for GS though.

I feel like comparing him in any way to Kawhi is a good way to communicate that you dont actually remember Pippen and are just saying things to participate.

The similarities are that they both played defense. Thats it. And even the type of defense they played was very different. Saying Pippen is Kawhi lite is like saying Pippen is Jordan lite. Those statements make an equal amount of sense. You could use Ben Simmons and it would make more sense than Kawhi would.

If you dont really know much about something, dont feel like you HAVE to two cents it. There’s plenty of players and topics i’m ignorant about. No shame in it. I just dont talk about them. And hopefully I can learn more through the discussion.

Yea, I just don’t know how a Kawhi comparison even came to mind, it simply makes no sense.

[SelfishPlayer]

1. The article you cited admits that the Blazers were loaded, thus proving my point.

2. They won Game 2 in a blowout with Rasheed Wallace and Steve Smith taking charge in the third quarter to blow the game open. They won Game 6 with Scottie shooting 1 for 6 with Smith and Bonzi Wells leading the way. So this claim about Pippen being the catalyst is just plain wrong.

3. Where was this great leadership in Game 7 when his teammates needed him most? Where was Scottie all 4th quarter? Oh right, he was standing around shrinking from the spotlight.

The fact is Scottie was gift-wrapped the most loaded roster in the league at that time and couldn't even make the NBA Finals.

The leading scorer average 16.4 ppg.. That was good for 42nd best in the NBA that season.

You are really hung up on this as if this proves anything. The reason why is because they had so many guys who could give you 20-25 on any given night, they didn't need any of their guys to average more than that.

Nine different players would be the the high-scorer in a game for the Blazers over the course of that season. The Lakers had only three different players lead them and only a handful of times was Shaquille O'Neal NOT the high scorer all season.

And to repeat, the Blazers had a higher ORTG than the Lakers in 2000.

You can spin it however you like; that was a stacked roster.

Portland's other hall of fame player Arvydas Sabonis averaged 11.8 ppg that season.

[og15]

if you extrapolate 1993 stats to todays pace & space gane, Pippen is a 25-10-10 player who can gaurd all 5 positons at a 1st team defense caliber.

Exactly!

If Russell Dumbrook/Westbrick can average a triple double for 3 years in the supposedly “tough” conference with his out of control low IQ knucklehead style Pip would have no problem matching it.

The modern game has been dumbed down for a lower BBall IQ generation of players who want to base their game on athleticism and playground moves, beginner level stuff basically.

Possibly, but maybe not.

Bulls pace was 91.9 (league average 95.1), they were 25/27 in pace. Pippen played 38.3 mpg, so about 73.3 possessions. Average pace this season was 98.5, highest mpg was 37.8, DeRozan. So a similar team would have something like a 97 pace with him playing 36 mpg, which would be around 72.7 possessions a game. So he could potentially be playing fewer possessions if he’s not on a team where the coach plays him as high minutes because minutes allocation is simply different now than in the past.

So that season he averaged 22.0, 8.7, 5.6, 2.9 stl, 3.2 tov. The estimation is that pace and space adds 3 ppg, 2 rpg, and 4 apg. I think that specific season you would see something closer to +1 ppg, same rpg unless he’s hunting them, and around +2 apg, so 23 ppg, 8-9 rpg and 6.5-7.5 apg.

Of course if the idea is that one is trying to force stats unto him, that could be done, but if the idea is on a team trying to win, then no one is really trying to copy Westbrook.

[ballzboyee]

Of course if the idea is that one is trying to force stats unto him, that could be done, but if the idea is on a team trying to win, then no one is really trying to copy Westbrook.

Exactly. Pippen is not playing like Westbrook. Pippen was a guy who always played in the flow of the offense and rarely tried to force things. Also, people consider Pippen a second option in Chicago, but even playing next to Jordan, Pippen was fairly high volume player. He had quite a number of seasons in which he averaged right around 17 attempts per game with a peak at 18 attempts. Just to put that in perspective, Lebron this year averaged 18 per game. Pippen in today's league is not shooting much more than he did in the 90's. I think he would be like Mikal Bridges with better playmaking and more versatile defense, which would be a very good player. Bridges has been a good defender, and like I said there is a diminishing return on defense today because the league is so much more friendly to the offense. I mean Bridges has 7'1" wingspan and right around 6'6" to 6'7" sg/sf and a pretty freakish athlete. Is Pippen a better athlete than Bridges? Maybe slightly, but they are similar athletes. That's my best guess as to an analog for a modern day Pippen. Pippen still has the one Achilles that he was just a not great at shot creation and finishing in the half court. He wasn't that efficient in certain areas of his game. I don't think he becomes a first option by time traveling him into the future. He's still your very good second option and elite glue guy on both sides of the court.

[JR Hawks]

Pippen is one of the most overrated players in NBA history. Not top 75 all time and not top 10 today.

[LaLover11]

Pippen is one of the most overrated players in NBA history. Not top 75 all time and not top 10 today.

Please explain

[bledredwine]

Pippen is one of the most overrated players in NBA history. Not top 75 all time and not top 10 today.

I can see calling him overrated or underrated given the polarity of his career (mostly because it’s hard to see the level of a player who’s next to Jordan) but I can’t see not placing him in the top 75. I can even relate to an extent- On one hand, Pippen has credited part his defensive improvement to Jordan constantly having young Pipp guard him at practices and stated that the Bulls needed Jordan’s leadership to thrive. But on the other hand, Pippen came into the league with athletic gifts that few possessed and Jordan immediately saw this in him- Pipp was chosen because he had what it took to thrive. He also stated that he doesn’t win six without Pipp (which is obvious as any star needs their second but a testament to Pipp’s greatness). In the right atmosphere, Pippen would thrive regardless IMO. He would potentially be a slightly better offender and slightly worse defender, if placed in today’s league as top dog on a team and with no Jordan. No one is stopping him going to the rack- that’s for sure. Think of a lebron lite… that’s actually the best comparison that I can think of. A 22/7/7 version of LBJ with a prime of 24/8/8. MJ may have been 38/7/6 give or take on his own (key distinction, playing point scorer) in the cut/dish game for reference but who really knows. Pippen was a better player than Russell Westbrook- much smarter and with a more reliable shot, excellent defense and somewhat worse slashing.

So I have a question.
Who can you name who played top five ever defense at his position, could play the point effectively, rebound, hit the three, slash, was lethal in transition and plugs instantly into any team?

And if he was a byproduct of the current era, you’d better believe that he’d have worked on and have had a great three ball.

I will say this- there have been some high IQ individual players (Magic, Bird, Kidd, Nash, Russell come to mind) but seeing the one two of Jordan Pippen is the smartest basketball that I’ve seen played between a 1-2, by a significant margin, and on both ends of the court. Their teamwork was flawless and vicious. We really need to go back and watch some Bulls games to understand.It was Larry Magic type of IQ between a 1-2 with the fundamentals, communication and coordination in place 100% of the time. I wish that everyone could have experienced it, because it was special. Even my grandma who lived in Missouri and didn’t give a rats ass about sports got ready with grandpa to watch those games.

[cupcakesnake]

If Scottie is on a team with the right fit (uptempo transition team with spacing and a structured motion offense and lots of cutting) I think you can argue he gets to play his peak game in a modern context.

I think he be in the 5-13 range this year. I have Tatum, Kawhi, KD, Brunson, Ant, George, AD, Sabonis, Lebron in that range right now. I think his relative lack of scoring stops him from being a top MVP candidate, but his value on defense combined with his offensive versatility gets him into the range right behind that.

Peak Pippen was a freak athlete. One of the fastest players in the NBA with a 7'3" wingspan and a crazy motor. Physically he'd an edge the older wings of 2024 (Kawhi, KD, Lebron), even if all those players have much better scoring tools.

[MavsDirk41]

He's like a playmaking point guard version of Kawhi. Kawhi sometimes has been regarded as the second best player in the league behind LeBron. He would be in discussion for best player in the league. He finished 3rd in MVP voting that year you presented. He's a lock down defensive player and a championship level playmaker. Top 3...

Pippen was never the offensive player Leonard is lol. He never had the 3 point shooting, free throw shooting or mid range game of Kawhi Leonard. Pippen had one year in his career where he was the number one option on his team offensively (93/94 Bulls). In Houston it was Barkley and on those stacked Portland teams where they often had 5-6 players in double figures it was Wallace or Steve Smith. Pippen was best as a secondary scorer. His biggest strength was his defensive versatility and his playmaking ability as a 3. In todays nba he would be top 10 to 12 probably. You are overrating Pippen on here but it fits your agenda of dissing Jordan.

[SelfishPlayer]

He's like a playmaking point guard version of Kawhi. Kawhi sometimes has been regarded as the second best player in the league behind LeBron. He would be in discussion for best player in the league. He finished 3rd in MVP voting that year you presented. He's a lock down defensive player and a championship level playmaker. Top 3...

Pippen was never the offensive player Leonard is lol. He never had the 3 point shooting, free throw shooting or mid range game of Kawhi Leonard. Pippen had one year in his career where he was the number one option on his team offensively (93/94 Bulls). In Houston it was Barkley and on those stacked Portland teams where they often had 5-6 players in double figures it was Wallace or Steve Smith. Pippen was best as a secondary scorer. His biggest strength was his defensive versatility and his playmaking ability as a 3. In todays nba he would be top 10 to 12 probably. You are overrating Pippen on here but it fits your agenda of dissing Jordan.

Pippen was actually a 6'7" floor general point guard that the Bulls turned into a SF in the triple post offense. Pippen entered the NBA as a point guard. Houston tried to make him a 3&D/isolation scorer and it failed. Portland knew what he always was and it worked. Kawhi will never be rated above Pippen, durability is the best ability. Pippen should NEVER be a #1 option, just like Magic Johnson. #1 options are easy to come across, championship level floor generalship is rare.

[MavsDirk41]

He's like a playmaking point guard version of Kawhi. Kawhi sometimes has been regarded as the second best player in the league behind LeBron. He would be in discussion for best player in the league. He finished 3rd in MVP voting that year you presented. He's a lock down defensive player and a championship level playmaker. Top 3...

Pippen was never the offensive player Leonard is lol. He never had the 3 point shooting, free throw shooting or mid range game of Kawhi Leonard. Pippen had one year in his career where he was the number one option on his team offensively (93/94 Bulls). In Houston it was Barkley and on those stacked Portland teams where they often had 5-6 players in double figures it was Wallace or Steve Smith. Pippen was best as a secondary scorer. His biggest strength was his defensive versatility and his playmaking ability as a 3. In todays nba he would be top 10 to 12 probably. You are overrating Pippen on here but it fits your agenda of dissing Jordan.

Pippen was actually a 6'7" floor general point guard that the Bulls turned into a SF in the triple post offense. Pippen entered the NBA as a point guard. Houston tried to make him a 3&D/isolation scorer and it failed. Portland knew what he always was and it worked. Kawhi will never be rated above Pippen, durability is the best ability. Pippen should NEVER be a #1 option, just like Magic Johnson. #1 options are easy to come across, championship level floor generalship is rare.

Leonard peaked higher than Pippen ever did. Leonard led his team to a championship while winning finals MVP and averaging 29/10/3. Even on these Clippers teams Leonard has always been the teams #1 option offensively and their best player. Leonard overall is a better player than Pippen, floor general or not. Pippen needed a system to play within - Bulls triangle offense with Jordan, those stacked Portland teams with Sabonis, Wallace, Stoudamire, Bonzi Well, Steve Smith. You can build a team around Leonard more so than Pippen can Leonard is the guy.

[SelfishPlayer]

Pippen was never the offensive player Leonard is lol. He never had the 3 point shooting, free throw shooting or mid range game of Kawhi Leonard. Pippen had one year in his career where he was the number one option on his team offensively (93/94 Bulls). In Houston it was Barkley and on those stacked Portland teams where they often had 5-6 players in double figures it was Wallace or Steve Smith. Pippen was best as a secondary scorer. His biggest strength was his defensive versatility and his playmaking ability as a 3. In todays nba he would be top 10 to 12 probably. You are overrating Pippen on here but it fits your agenda of dissing Jordan.

Pippen was actually a 6'7" floor general point guard that the Bulls turned into a SF in the triple post offense. Pippen entered the NBA as a point guard. Houston tried to make him a 3&D/isolation scorer and it failed. Portland knew what he always was and it worked. Kawhi will never be rated above Pippen, durability is the best ability. Pippen should NEVER be a #1 option, just like Magic Johnson. #1 options are easy to come across, championship level floor generalship is rare.

Leonard peaked higher than Pippen ever did. Leonard led his team to a championship while winning finals MVP and averaging 29/10/3. Even on these Clippers teams Leonard has always been the teams #1 option offensively and their best player. Leonard overall is a better player than Pippen, floor general or not. Pippen needed a system to play within - Bulls triangle offense with Jordan, those stacked Portland teams with Sabonis, Wallace, Stoudamire, Bonzi Well, Steve Smith. You can build a team around Leonard more so than Pippen can Leonard is the guy.

Leonard played with two MVPs.

[SportsGuru08]

Pippen was actually a 6'7" floor general point guard that the Bulls turned into a SF in the triple post offense. Pippen entered the NBA as a point guard. Houston tried to make him a 3&D/isolation scorer and it failed. Portland knew what he always was and it worked. Kawhi will never be rated above Pippen, durability is the best ability. Pippen should NEVER be a #1 option, just like Magic Johnson. #1 options are easy to come across, championship level floor generalship is rare.

Leonard peaked higher than Pippen ever did. Leonard led his team to a championship while winning finals MVP and averaging 29/10/3. Even on these Clippers teams Leonard has always been the teams #1 option offensively and their best player. Leonard overall is a better player than Pippen, floor general or not. Pippen needed a system to play within - Bulls triangle offense with Jordan, those stacked Portland teams with Sabonis, Wallace, Stoudamire, Bonzi Well, Steve Smith. You can build a team around Leonard more so than Pippen can Leonard is the guy.

Leonard played with two MVPs.

Neither of whom was in their primes when Kawhi played with them.

[SportsGuru08]

The leading scorer average 16.4 ppg.. That was good for 42nd best in the NBA that season.

You are really hung up on this as if this proves anything. The reason why is because they had so many guys who could give you 20-25 on any given night, they didn't need any of their guys to average more than that.

Nine different players would be the the high-scorer in a game for the Blazers over the course of that season. The Lakers had only three different players lead them and only a handful of times was Shaquille O'Neal NOT the high scorer all season.

And to repeat, the Blazers had a higher ORTG than the Lakers in 2000.

You can spin it however you like; that was a stacked roster.

Portland's other hall of fame player Arvydas Sabonis averaged 11.8 ppg that season.

Irrelevant for all the reasons I've stated repeatedly.

[Raps in 4]

Top-20 player probably.

The Kawhi comparisons are absurd. Kawhi is a much better scorer than Pippen ever was. Healthy, peak Kawhi is closer to Jordan in impact than Pippen is to Kawhi.

[SelfishPlayer]

Top-20 player probably.

The Kawhi comparisons are absurd. Kawhi is a much better scorer than Pippen ever was. Healthy, peak Kawhi is closer to Jordan in impact than Pippen is to Kawhi.

Wrong. Kawhi's highest VORP was 7.1. Pippen's highest VORP was 7.2. Jordan's highest VORP was 12.5!!!!!!!!

[MavsDirk41]

Pippen was actually a 6'7" floor general point guard that the Bulls turned into a SF in the triple post offense. Pippen entered the NBA as a point guard. Houston tried to make him a 3&D/isolation scorer and it failed. Portland knew what he always was and it worked. Kawhi will never be rated above Pippen, durability is the best ability. Pippen should NEVER be a #1 option, just like Magic Johnson. #1 options are easy to come across, championship level floor generalship is rare.

Leonard peaked higher than Pippen ever did. Leonard led his team to a championship while winning finals MVP and averaging 29/10/3. Even on these Clippers teams Leonard has always been the teams #1 option offensively and their best player. Leonard overall is a better player than Pippen, floor general or not. Pippen needed a system to play within - Bulls triangle offense with Jordan, those stacked Portland teams with Sabonis, Wallace, Stoudamire, Bonzi Well, Steve Smith. You can build a team around Leonard more so than Pippen can Leonard is the guy.

Leonard played with two MVPs.

The year before Pippen went to Portland they were the second seed in the west with a 35-15 record. They lost to San Antonio in the western conference finals. Portland was a very good team before Pippen went there. Pippen was a great 2 way player but he played with the goat. Leonard played with another top 10 ten player but he still peaker higher than Pippen.

[Raps in 4]

Top-20 player probably.

The Kawhi comparisons are absurd. Kawhi is a much better scorer than Pippen ever was. Healthy, peak Kawhi is closer to Jordan in impact than Pippen is to Kawhi.

Wrong. Kawhi's highest VORP was 7.1. Pippen's highest VORP was 7.2. Jordan's highest VORP was 12.5!!!!!!!!

VORP is a cumulative stat. Kawhi misses tons of games.

Peak regular season BPM:

Jordan: 13.0
Kawhi: 10.1
Pippen: 7.7

Peak playoff BPM:

Jordan: 14.6
Kawhi: 14.2
Pippen: 7.8