No Thread on Kidd beating teams with good Coaches?

[One Last Shot]

A coach can screw up a good team a lot easier than make a bad team good. How hard is it to win with Luka and Kyrie and Luka and Brunson? But when you do what he did in Game 4 against the Clippers bench both centers and make Maxi the main rim protector who proceeded to get cooked, that's a negative for his team. I think coaches in the NBA are mostly overrated. Spo getting the Heat to the Finals as the 8th and 7th seed was an exception, but how hard was it to win a championship with prime Lebron, Wade and Bosh? Phil Jackson 11 rings but he had MJ, Pippen, Kobe, Shaq, every championship Pop won he had Tim Duncan etc...

Kobe, MJ and Shaq have a combined 1 ring without Phil and they had many coaches before and after him. Shaq only won with another great coach in Riley.

Right but let's say those Bulls teams had another coach, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have won championships, or Kobe/Shaq Lakers, or Duncan with Pop. Maybe the amount of championships was greater because of Phil or Pop, impossible to say because it's hypothetical. Although I do give Phil credit for creating the triangle offense. You can't say that about most coaches though they usually just run the same schemes other coaches do.

And people say "Jordan won nothing before Phil" Well he didn't have Scottie until 88, and then he was a rookie averaging 8 ppg. Those weren't great Bulls teams by any stretch in the 80's. Phil was there in 89 and 90 (actually he was hired as an assistant in 87, but that isn't quite the same) and they still couldn't win until 91. But again I probably give Phil more credit than any coach due to creating the triangle offense. But that doesn't mean Bulls would have not won in the 90's at all without him.

Like with Duncan do I think Duncan could have won championships without Pop? Yes, do I think Pop would have won on those Spurs teams without Duncan? No. It's a star driven league.

It's not Phil Jackson, it's Tex Winter who developed the triangle offense in the 1960s and it became popular when he convinced Chicago Bulls head coach Phil Jackson to implement it in the 1990s that won the Bulls 6 NBA titles and another 3 NBA titles for the Lakers where Tex Winter was an assistant for Jackson on both of those championship teams.

[ChipotleWest]

Kobe, MJ and Shaq have a combined 1 ring without Phil and they had many coaches before and after him. Shaq only won with another great coach in Riley.

Right but let's say those Bulls teams had another coach, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have won championships, or Kobe/Shaq Lakers, or Duncan with Pop. Maybe the amount of championships was greater because of Phil or Pop, impossible to say because it's hypothetical. Although I do give Phil credit for creating the triangle offense. You can't say that about most coaches though they usually just run the same schemes other coaches do.

And people say "Jordan won nothing before Phil" Well he didn't have Scottie until 88, and then he was a rookie averaging 8 ppg. Those weren't great Bulls teams by any stretch in the 80's. Phil was there in 89 and 90 (actually he was hired as an assistant in 87, but that isn't quite the same) and they still couldn't win until 91. But again I probably give Phil more credit than any coach due to creating the triangle offense. But that doesn't mean Bulls would have not won in the 90's at all without him.

Like with Duncan do I think Duncan could have won championships without Pop? Yes, do I think Pop would have won on those Spurs teams without Duncan? No. It's a star driven league.

It's not Phil Jackson, it's Tex Winter who developed the triangle offense in the 1960s and it became popular when he convinced Chicago Bulls head coach Phil Jackson to implement it in the 1990s that won the Bulls 6 NBA titles and another 3 NBA titles for the Lakers where Tex Winter was an assistant for Jackson on both of those championship teams.

Ah, I stand corrected. I think I heard that before actually but just forgot.

[sikma42]

Right now he’s out coaching the COTY.


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[Baz]

I don't think Kidd is a bad coach & come playoff time he always steps up his game. But he has shown himself to be an individual that takes no accountability when he coaches badly, and he has a tendency to make baffling and costly decisions quite often. His interviews after any loss are always quite telling. Credit for improving the defense & giving this team grit. Luka & Kyrie like him & that can be half the struggle as a coach. I do think if these players bought into a better coach this could be a top championship contender, and honestly it should be when Kyrie & Luka are your backcourt.

[OfficialRef]

Its his fault when they lose but its on the players if they win for some odd reason. Hes been scapegoated so hard he will never get his dues.

[Jabroni Lames]

A coach can screw up a good team a lot easier than make a bad team good. How hard is it to win with Luka and Kyrie and Luka and Brunson? But when you do what he did in Game 4 against the Clippers bench both centers and make Maxi the main rim protector who proceeded to get cooked, that's a negative for his team. I think coaches in the NBA are mostly overrated. Spo getting the Heat to the Finals as the 8th and 7th seed was an exception, but how hard was it to win a championship with prime Lebron, Wade and Bosh? Phil Jackson 11 rings but he had MJ, Pippen, Kobe, Shaq, every championship Pop won he had Tim Duncan etc...

I love how people nonchalantly accept Brunson as a superstar now, but forget that it was Kidd who helped him develop beyond anybody’s expectations. And Kidd did the same for Giannis. He’s definitely great at instilling confidence into young guys, and talent is 90% of the game in the NBA.

[theFireBlanket]

A coach can screw up a good team a lot easier than make a bad team good. How hard is it to win with Luka and Kyrie and Luka and Brunson? But when you do what he did in Game 4 against the Clippers bench both centers and make Maxi the main rim protector who proceeded to get cooked, that's a negative for his team. I think coaches in the NBA are mostly overrated. Spo getting the Heat to the Finals as the 8th and 7th seed was an exception, but how hard was it to win a championship with prime Lebron, Wade and Bosh? Phil Jackson 11 rings but he had MJ, Pippen, Kobe, Shaq, every championship Pop won he had Tim Duncan etc...

I love how people nonchalantly accept Brunson as a superstar now, but forget that it was Kidd who helped him develop beyond anybody’s expectations. And Kidd did the same for Giannis. He’s definitely great at instilling confidence into young guys, and talent is 90% of the game in the NBA.

Larry Drew saw what Jason Kidd saw & was fired. He said Giannis reminded him of Magic Johnson, called him a point forward & empowered him in multitude of ways.

Jason Kidd's influence is so overstated. He limited him from shooting 3s, which if anything setback his rookie conversion percentage.

The Marvelous Journey(watch it, if you haven't). Giannis was getting here, without Kidd.

[tamaraw08]

Right but let's say those Bulls teams had another coach, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have won championships, or Kobe/Shaq Lakers, or Duncan with Pop. Maybe the amount of championships was greater because of Phil or Pop, impossible to say because it's hypothetical. Although I do give Phil credit for creating the triangle offense. You can't say that about most coaches though they usually just run the same schemes other coaches do.

And people say "Jordan won nothing before Phil" Well he didn't have Scottie until 88, and then he was a rookie averaging 8 ppg. Those weren't great Bulls teams by any stretch in the 80's. Phil was there in 89 and 90 (actually he was hired as an assistant in 87, but that isn't quite the same) and they still couldn't win until 91. But again I probably give Phil more credit than any coach due to creating the triangle offense. But that doesn't mean Bulls would have not won in the 90's at all without him.

Like with Duncan do I think Duncan could have won championships without Pop? Yes, do I think Pop would have won on those Spurs teams without Duncan? No. It's a star driven league.

It's not Phil Jackson, it's Tex Winter who developed the triangle offense in the 1960s and it became popular when he convinced Chicago Bulls head coach Phil Jackson to implement it in the 1990s that won the Bulls 6 NBA titles and another 3 NBA titles for the Lakers where Tex Winter was an assistant for Jackson on both of those championship teams.

Ah, I stand corrected. I think I heard that before actually but just forgot.

It seems to me you are too young not to know that Phil didn't create the Triangle but who the heck cares if he didn't. Most systems and schemes have been created from way way back but it's also about coaches selecting the correct strategies based on player personnel, making the appropriate tweaks and selling those ideas to your players. Jordan at first was very lukewarm with that Triple Post offense, and heck he thought he would be successful hiring Doug Collins AGAIN when he unretire playing for Washington.
Kobe thought the same then when tried Rudy Tomjanovich back in 2005. Guess what? That coach lasted 43 games and quit because Kobe was so frustrated with his "thick playbook". Kobe also tried Mike Brown... then Mike D'Antoni. Shaq was embarrassed in Orlando even with a very good supporting cast.....
To say that that the Bulls would have won anyway even without Phil is crazy IMO. That's purely speculative.

[sp6r=underrated]

It's not Phil Jackson, it's Tex Winter who developed the triangle offense in the 1960s and it became popular when he convinced Chicago Bulls head coach Phil Jackson to implement it in the 1990s that won the Bulls 6 NBA titles and another 3 NBA titles for the Lakers where Tex Winter was an assistant for Jackson on both of those championship teams.

Ah, I stand corrected. I think I heard that before actually but just forgot.

It seems to me you are too young not to know that Phil didn't create the Triangle but who the heck cares if he didn't. Most systems and schemes have been created from way way back but it's also about coaches selecting the correct strategies based on player personnel, making the appropriate tweaks and selling those ideas to your players. Jordan at first was very lukewarm with that Triple Post offense, and heck he thought he would be successful hiring Doug Collins AGAIN when he unretire playing for Washington.
Kobe thought the same then when tried Rudy Tomjanovich back in 2005. Guess what? That coach lasted 43 games and quit because Kobe was so frustrated with his "thick playbook". Kobe also tried Mike Brown... then Mike D'Antoni. Shaq was embarrassed in Orlando even with a very good supporting cast.....
To say that that the Bulls would have won anyway even without Phil is crazy IMO. That's purely speculative.

+1. As a 90s Knicks fan, whose 2nd favorite player of all-time is Tim Duncan I detest Phil Jackson. I hated his smug press conferences, his ability to work the refs, astericking the 99 season for vanity but the man was an absurdly good coach.

The 90s Bull peaked at a higher level than any other team in NBA history. In their 6 championship seasons they played a total of 2 elimination games. When Michael Jordan retired for a year and a half they still pushed the Knicks to 7 games. When he arrived in LA they went from face planting in the post-season every year to 3-peating.

His last season in the NBA was probably the only time you can argue his team under-performed in the post-season. I'm sure the 90s bulls would have won some titles but I doubt they win as many or peak as high. Same with the Shaq-Kobe lakers. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Kobe-Gasol lakers failed to win any. Phil was great as his job

[DreamTeam09]

I must say, at times I didn't like him as a coach. I have to admit tho, he's been coaching the hell out of this group. Getting the most out of his guys & a buy in like never before. Props to him

[Karate Diop]

Watch on YouTube

Y'all can hate, but the Kidd b great.

[tamaraw08]

Ah, I stand corrected. I think I heard that before actually but just forgot.

It seems to me you are too young not to know that Phil didn't create the Triangle but who the heck cares if he didn't. Most systems and schemes have been created from way way back but it's also about coaches selecting the correct strategies based on player personnel, making the appropriate tweaks and selling those ideas to your players. Jordan at first was very lukewarm with that Triple Post offense, and heck he thought he would be successful hiring Doug Collins AGAIN when he unretire playing for Washington.
Kobe thought the same then when tried Rudy Tomjanovich back in 2005. Guess what? That coach lasted 43 games and quit because Kobe was so frustrated with his "thick playbook". Kobe also tried Mike Brown... then Mike D'Antoni. Shaq was embarrassed in Orlando even with a very good supporting cast.....
To say that that the Bulls would have won anyway even without Phil is crazy IMO. That's purely speculative.

+1. As a 90s Knicks fan, whose 2nd favorite player of all-time is Tim Duncan I detest Phil Jackson. I hated his smug press conferences, his ability to work the refs, astericking the 99 season for vanity but the man was an absurdly good coach.

The 90s Bull peaked at a higher level than any other team in NBA history. In their 6 championship seasons they played a total of 2 elimination games. When Michael Jordan retired for a year and a half they still pushed the Knicks to 7 games. When he arrived in LA they went from face planting in the post-season every year to 3-peating.

His last season in the NBA was probably the only time you can argue his team under-performed in the post-season. I'm sure the 90s bulls would have won some titles but I doubt they win as many or peak as high. Same with the Shaq-Kobe lakers. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Kobe-Gasol lakers failed to win any. Phil was great as his job

Yes, when Jordan retired and was replaced by the freaking journeyman Pete Myers, they won 55 regular season games.
Also note that in 2005, Phil also coached the Lakers to 45 wins with the Smush Parker and Kwame Brown in his starting lineup. 8th best in ORTG... Let that sink in for a moment... then again the young ones here probably do not know who Smush and Kwame were back then.

[ChipotleWest]

I said on the Mavs board I decided not to complain about Kidd any longer and at least give him a totally clean slate. The Mavs seem to like Kidd and the defense is playing great. Is he perfect? No, but I concede that he's probably right for this Mavs team. Now if he does something like Game 4 of the Clippers series which I still think was dumb I'll complain about it but otherwise I'm good with Kidd as coach of the Mavs. Even if OKC came back and won the series as long as I didn't think it was Kidd's fault I won't be like "get another coach".

[Mavrelous]

Kidd is a great defensive coach with the right personell, he also is great at in series adjustments and can respond to changes in opposing team offense, he is however:
- quick to give up when things get rough or don't go his way
- As a result, if he's lost, he can go for long stretches of not calling a TO (20 points leads gone w/o a TO)
- Bad offensive coach, relies mainly on Luka/Kyrie with basic spread P&R sets

Mavs are much better team than Kawhi-less Clips, series needlessly got tight, but Mavs with slumping amd injured Luka and w/o Maxi are worse than OKC, he's leading the series right now (knocking on wood).
The series he coached in 22 against the Suns was great, against the Ws he couldn't respomd to Kerr.

[Effigy]

He's won series against...

Dwayne Casey
Quin Snyder
Monty Williams
Ty Lue

That's not bad.

It's not terrible, but it's not amazing either.

[TMac Culloch]

Well he left the nets in the most unprofessional way and wouldn't make defensive scheme adjustments in Milwakee but maybe the Lakers stint changed him like the media suggests

[prejt]

He's definitely underrated in online sports forums. There's a reason why the Mavs rushed to extend him.

[Edrees]

I just want Mavs fans to admit he's a better coach than Darvin Ham

[theFireBlanket]

Probably not the best choice of words in thread title re: J. Kidd, given his history of domestic abuse.

[ChipotleWest]

If Mavs win last night someone's bumping this thread to flex on Kidd, but I'm actually going to defend Kidd here.

Luka/Kyrie combined for 60 ppg in the regular season, last night they combined for 27. Mavs missed 11 free throws, Thunder missed 1 and somehow this was a close game. Should have been a blow out. Mavs lead about 95% of the game.

Mavs look to me to be the best defensive team in the League even over Minnesota. But man does offense suck right now. The coach didn't make Luka be out of shape and have a sprain knee though.