James eyeing Howard's Defensive Player Of Year award

[heatwillbeback]

There's nothing "fabricated" in those stats. There's no formula, it's +/- numbers. Nothing like PER or Win Shares at all. For what it's worth, defensive RAPM ranks Boozer as the 409th best defensive player in the league.

That's even worse. +/- is the WORST statistical measurement in statistical history. Its been proven completely unreliable and false each and every day. and yes it is a measurement of stats, it is a formula.

No. Imagine you're being defended by point guard A, who is a notoriously weak defender who struggles to stay in front of his man. You get by point guard A, and look to attack the basket, however, small forward B quickly comes in to help, blocking your way from the basket, forcing you to pull up for a jumper, and you brick it. Point guard A is credited with forcing you to miss a field goal, however, point guard A played no part in you missing that field goal.

first of all, Mysnergysports have it all categorized, post up, spot up, iso, p&r, off-screen, etc

Second of all, that is hardly the case, SF do not help in penetration to the rim because most of the time they are guarding their man on the three point line.

The ones who do help off of penetration are pf's and centers.

But none of this matter becasuse mysnergysports categorizes the plays. and you can look at each category seperately and come to conclusion.

Yes, although, with ZERO context.

It does have alot of context and more context than the rubbish +/-, DRG, and DWS.
Mysnergysports are actually done by video with the eye.

Yes, and Lebron James is 195 because HE ALSO covers so much ground, switches like heck, and guards and alters almost every shot he can get to. I'm pretty sure I covered this in my earlier post. I'm guessing you just glanced at the stats and didn't actually read it.

absolutely not, Lebron hardly switches, infact he NEVER switches unless its on purpose, Spo's defensive scheme is not to switch. They hardly switch. Unlike the Knicks, magics and other teams who switch on every play. You will hardly find lebron on the wrong man in a half court situation.

2010 Miami Defensive rating 104.1
2011 Miami Defensive rating 103.5

Miami have also been a defensive minded team way before Lebron got there.
Secondly about RAPM and +/-.

Dirk Nowiski a 2.4 per 100 possesion? Its well known He doesn't play a lick of defense.
And is ranked 308 at Snergy.

i'm sorry but there is no stat measurement more useless than +/- except DRG and WS

you do not know the Heat's scheme obviously.

[Honey Bear]

Sorry.. LeBron isn't DPOY material. The only people that believe that are Miami writers and fans. It's either going to be Dwight or Ibaka.

The notion that people think LeBron is on Jordan's or Pippen's level of defense is sickening and I've seen it talked about in a few places.

I understand LeBron's a versatile player on defense, but he's not DPOY material, not the least bit for a wing defender anyway. You have to dominate on defense to get that honor.

[C-izMe]

Lebron is not a good man defender, he's average at best as those Synergy stats prove. He's great at playing the lanes, closes out quick, and rotates well.

According to synergy this year and last year he has been a top 70 iso and post defender. Almost no one else has done that. What makes Lebron fall is the amount of threes he gives up off screens and spot ups.

[SideshowBob]

Sorry.. LeBron isn't DPOY material. The only people that believe that are Miami writers and fans. It's either going to be Dwight or Ibaka.

The notion that people think LeBron is on Jordan's or Pippen's level of defense is sickening and I've seen it talked about in a few places.

I understand LeBron's a versatile player on defense, but he's not DPOY material, not the least bit for a wing defender anyway. You have to dominate on defense to get that honor.

Well, I've seen arguments for why Lebron IS a great defender. However, I haven't actually seen an argument made for why he's NOT one. Just a bunch of baseless claims.

Would you like to make an argument?

[C-izMe]

Sorry.. LeBron isn't DPOY material. The only people that believe that are Miami writers and fans. It's either going to be Dwight or Ibaka.

The notion that people think LeBron is on Jordan's or Pippen's level of defense is sickening and I've seen it talked about in a few places.

I understand LeBron's a versatile player on defense, but he's not DPOY material, not the least bit for a wing defender anyway. You have to dominate on defense to get that honor.

Well, I've seen arguments for why Lebron IS a great defender. However, I haven't actually seen an argument made for why he's NOT one. Just a bunch of baseless claims.

Would you like to make an argument?

Not agreeing but Lebron has never had Artest/possibly Scottie/current Deng impact. He's always been a little short. Maybe he believes that you need to be at that level to win it (not what he probably means though. I'm just optimistic).

[Bladers]

My list is:
Deng (this guy is a monster)
Iggy (almost never seen a SF keep up with PGs for whole games like he can)
Dwight (plays spectacular when they win and horrible when they lose. Too unmotivated every other game)
Wallace (Guards three positions very well excluding what KLove did to him)
Lebron (Best man defender in the league. Hasnt been consistent as a help defender though)
KG (best help defending big in the L)
JSmoove (leaps and bounds better than two years ago)
Wade (great help defender when he gets down the court)
Serge (OKC gives up a lot of attempts in the paint but they let up one of the lowest FG%. Blame Russell-lite Serge)
LMA (has really played bad defensively since the injury in Atlanta. Might not be 100%)

No according to facts. According to facts he's 195.

Iggy ranks 46
Deng ranks 30
Sefo ranks 46
Harden ranks 85.

These are all better defenders than Lebron

[Bladers]

Sorry.. LeBron isn't DPOY material. The only people that believe that are Miami writers and fans. It's either going to be Dwight or Ibaka.

The notion that people think LeBron is on Jordan's or Pippen's level of defense is sickening and I've seen it talked about in a few places.

I understand LeBron's a versatile player on defense, but he's not DPOY material, not the least bit for a wing defender anyway. You have to dominate on defense to get that honor.

Well, I've seen arguments for why Lebron IS a great defender. However, I haven't actually seen an argument made for why he's NOT one. Just a bunch of baseless claims.

Would you like to make an argument?

Funny how i owned your argument and you couldn't and haven't come up with a rebuttal, now you are challenging another person who you know isn't informed after someone whose informed put you in your place.

[C-izMe]

My list is:
Deng (this guy is a monster)
Iggy (almost never seen a SF keep up with PGs for whole games like he can)
Dwight (plays spectacular when they win and horrible when they lose. Too unmotivated every other game)
Wallace (Guards three positions very well excluding what KLove did to him)
Lebron (Best man defender in the league. Hasnt been consistent as a help defender though)
KG (best help defending big in the L)
JSmoove (leaps and bounds better than two years ago)
Wade (great help defender when he gets down the court)
Serge (OKC gives up a lot of attempts in the paint but they let up one of the lowest FG%. Blame Russell-lite Serge)
LMA (has really played bad defensively since the injury in Atlanta. Might not be 100%)

No according to facts. According to facts he's 195.

Iggy ranks 46
Deng ranks 30
Sefo ranks 46
Harden ranks 85.

These are all better defenders than Lebron

Where does he rank in the ISO and POST category? He's ranked at the top in both the last two years (possibly three). He ranks low on synergy because of his spot up defense.

[SideshowBob]

Funny how i owned your argument and you couldn't and haven't come up with a rebuttal, now you are challenging another person who you know isn't informed after someone whose informed put you in your place.

I've already explained to you why I can't put much stock into Synergy stats, which is really all the evidence you've provided. Andrea ****ing Bargniani is ranked 35 places ahead of Dwight Howard, as the number 11 defender in the league

Also, I've made clear that I value help defense much more than man defense, and I'm not all that concerned with how many positions Lebron can cover. It's really quite a simplistic concept. Stopping the opposing team is much more likely to lead to a win than stopping a single player. The player that contributes more to the overall team defense is the more valuable player to me. In that context, Lebron is incredibly valuable, and that's something Synergy stats don't capture

Another point, I have already mentioned in this thread that I don't have Lebron winning DPOY as of this moment, and two defender you've mentioned as being superior to Lebron (Iggy and Deng) are currently #1 and #2 in my personal DPOY rankings.

[KodyGSoufSide]

john lucas III

[sipclip]

The guy that started this thread is a joke. Watch Lebron a few games and you will see why he is one of the best defensive players in the league. The guy is all over the place helping out every teammate on the court and has a huge impact that statistics can't even come close to measuring.

[Mamba Venom]

If James wins, ESPN MUST surrender their right to vote. They have too many votes. And they are becoming sheep.

[Monarch]

But if it's not on Synergy...it can't be true, right? Since I don't watch the games, I rely on Synergy to sound like I do know what I'm talking about. But if Synergy is lying...oh man oh man, I can't take this.

[droponov]

He doesn't deserve it. Give it to Howard or KG. If it's going to be a perimeter player, pick Iggy, Marion or Deng before him.

A point about Synergy: it's a great tool that all of you should buy, but players have different roles, defend different opponents, play in different schemes with different helpers. The stats de per si aren't worth that much. Give a look at the videos.

[C-izMe]

He doesn't deserve it. Give it to Howard or KG. If it's going to be a perimeter player, pick Iggy, Marion or Deng before him.

A point about Synergy: it's a great tool that all of you should buy, but players have different roles, defend different opponents, play in different schemes with different helpers. The stats de per si aren't worth that much. Give a look at the videos.

The videos are why I subscribed. You can also watch every game on there (so I can see the Knicks play). They do show that Deng and Iggy are definetly over Lebron (not that they'll win it as Lon as the media has James, Dwight, and Serge as the front runners.

[SideshowBob]

@Bladers

Synergy Stats BARELY scratch the surface of an individual's defensive impact. They only focus on box score metrics and don't always credit the right player for the defensive play.

Where in the Synergy stats do they keep track of box-outs? If player A does an effective job of boxing out his man, and teammate B gets the rebound, shouldn't player A receive some credit for the rebound, which IS in fact, a defensive play?

If player A is covering his man (opp. A), and teammate B comes over in order to help trap, one of many things could happen. NONE of which, synergy keeps track of. Opp. A will be forced into a bad shot, credit will go to player A and not B. Opp. A will be forced into a turnover, credit will go to player A and not B. Opp. A will be forced to run out the shot clock and perhaps pass to a teammate for a bad shot, which misses; neither player A or player B receives credit.

Player A is slow to rotate, and player B has to compensate, player A's man spots up and hits a shot before Player B can recover to make up for the defensive mistake. Player B is credited with allowing a made field goal, while player A, who made the mistake, doesn't get discredited at all.

Player A mistimes a block on an opposing players shots, causing it to fall right into the hands of an opposing big man, who quickly puts it back in. Player B is credited with allowing a field goal, while player A is credited with preventing one. Once again, Player A's makes a mistake that Player B wrongly gets credit for.

What about ball-denial? Assume player A is guarding a superstar offensive player. If player A does an effective job at simply not allowing that player to get the ball, that effect will never show up in synergy stats. Don't tell me that's not good defense.

And I can go on and on. The Synergy stats are great as a reference, but they offer little to NO context, and don't cover anything beyond the box score.

The adjusted Plus/Minus stats on the other hand, don't really break down each and every play, however, they paint a great picture of how much an individual can impact his team defensively. I'm much more willing to take those seriously than Synergy Stats

[sonicFLAME6]

Funny how i owned your argument and you couldn't and haven't come up with a rebuttal, now you are challenging another person who you know isn't informed after someone whose informed put you in your place.

I've already explained to you why I can't put much stock into Synergy stats, which is really all the evidence you've provided. Andrea ****ing Bargniani is ranked 35 places ahead of Dwight Howard, as the number 11 defender in the league

Also, I've made clear that I value help defense much more than man defense, and I'm not all that concerned with how many positions Lebron can cover. It's really quite a simplistic concept. Stopping the opposing team is much more likely to lead to a win than stopping a single player. The player that contributes more to the overall team defense is the more valuable player to me. In that context, Lebron is incredibly valuable, and that's something Synergy stats don't capture

Another point, I have already mentioned in this thread that I don't have Lebron winning DPOY as of this moment, and two defender you've mentioned as being superior to Lebron (Iggy and Deng) are currently #1 and #2 in my personal DPOY rankings.

Lol I have the same take that you do on defense. Another thing I want to add is Howard can clog the middle but really there is less talent on PF and even more in the C position while the SF position has the highest amount elite level scorers in the NBA. Right of the top of my head you have, Melo, LeBron, Durant, Marion, Granger ect. In my opinion it is harder to man up at the SF than C. Not ti take anything away from Howard and guys like Ibaka and so on. But hen you are pretty much biggest and longest player on the block it is easier to clog up the lane then if you are defending the perimeter.
I agree though about Iggy, Deng being slightly above LeBron. But Deng missed some games so in reality I just have Iggy above LeBron but to say he houldnt be considered for the award is comical.

[SideshowBob]

Lol I have the same take that you do on defense. Another thing I want to add is Howard can clog the middle but really there is less talent on PF and even more in the C position while the SF position has the highest amount elite level scorers in the NBA. Right of the top of my head you have, Melo, LeBron, Durant, Marion, Granger ect. In my opinion it is harder to man up at the SF than C. Not ti take anything away from Howard and guys like Ibaka and so on. But hen you are pretty much biggest and longest player on the block it is easier to clog up the lane then if you are defending the perimeter.
I agree though about Iggy, Deng being slightly above LeBron. But Deng missed some games so in reality I just have Iggy above LeBron but to say he houldnt be considered for the award is comical.

I'm not sure who its going to be for me by the end of the season. Lebron's really turned it up as of late, Deng's missed some games, and Iggy's been remarkably consistent. I think any of the three could end up my #1. It's fairly close

[MVP Rose]

LeBron has literally no argument over Dwight

Hell, I think Iguodala and Deng are both better defenders than him, they just won't get the hype because they aren't allowed to hand-check:

[arsenic]

LeBron has literally no argument over Dwight

Hell, I think Iguodala is a better defender than him

You're probably right, but it's still stronger than Rose's argument was for MVP last season and he got it so who knows maybe luck will go Lebron's way, but to receive this type of recognition at the very least is good enough for me. Lebron's versatility on the defensive end is a quality that can't be properly measured as far as impact but is certainly a valuable asset to have.