WCQF | (3) Houston Rockets vs Oklahoma City Thunder (6) | HOU 2-1

[bakesale]

People really still think Russ has the same amount of talent to work with as Harden does?

If you think that. You must not like Russ. Want Harden to Win MVP or just a Houston Rockets fan...Because Harden has clearly the better team to work with here and it's really not even close.

Adams got Gobert level contract and people on here were seriously debating as to who was the better player between him and Gobert. Obviously I think Gobert is better, but it was debated nonetheless.

I will say that I like Adams and do think he has plenty of talent. When Russ takes all his rebounds and shots, it's hard for Adams to show off his wares.

Kanter and Gibson aren't any worse than say Capela and Anderson.

Oladipo is every bit as talented as any guard Houston has, it's just a shame he doesn't get enough usage/touches.

Roberson is effectively the same as Beverley.

Rockets are a bit more talented overall sure, but it's not light years ahead, like you're making it out to be.

[Mylie10]

Is he the lowest IQ MVP of all time?

Nope

[Young_Star11]

Russ has 'carried' OKC all season and it has been to the detriment of the team as others stand and watch.

Harden has 'elevated' Houston all season and has helped others become better.

If only people saw that.

[SpreeS]

OKC w/o Westbrick FG% 42.5 eFG% 47.2 TS% 51.4
Westbrick FG% 39.5 eFG% 41.9 TS% 50.1

[BallerTalk]

I can't say Harden is "better with talent" until he matches Westbrook's playoff resume. When Westbrook had Durant, they made finals and 3 WCF. Harden needs to prove himself beyond the 1st round.

Sorry but this comment was so egregious that it just demanded my attention.
Here are the facts.

Durant:
1 NBA Finals
4 WCF
3 Missed Playoffs

Westbrook:
1 NBA Finals
4 WCF
2 Missed Playoffs

Harden:
1 NBA Finals
3 WCF*
0 Missed Playoffs

*Add that Harden is the only one of the 3 to reach the conference finals with no other All-Star on his team.

To suggest that Westbrook has a better playoff resume than Harden is dubious at best and that's before we get into the fact that Westbrook has spent the entirety of his playoff career (until now) as the secondary star to a top 10 player.

[+2number4+]

We can only ask for Westbrook to get better because the rest of the team won't, at least not yet. It's the patient game we play #OKC

It's a crazy thing to say but the only way we get better is for him to reach an even higher level

Like 50 shots a game higher?

OK, I am not participating in the GB game threads for the playoffs; but I did go through and read a lot of comments post-game (something I do during the regular season - I like seeing what other fan bases think). As a Mod for the GB I have to say that I appreciate everyone's participation tonight. I did not read every comment; but I did not see any instances which were out of bounds. Obviously, this is a game that can get chippy; and some comments got a bit heated. That said, no one seemed to go after other posters or make things unnecessarily personal. Thank you all for that!

I have come to grips with the fact that the ongoing MVP discussion will be a major factor in the discussion of this series. I do not blame any of you; but rather the stupid NBA for waiting until the end of June for their stupid awards show which I feel is stupid and if you haven't picked up on my feelings then just know that I think that the June 26th regular season awards show is a stupid idea and I will not be watching. I really, really hope that someone leaks the results and ruins the NBA's stupid plans for that stupid show.

That said...it is clear that many of you like discussing the MVP situation. I am not an animal rights activist; but I am pretty opposed to the beating of dead horses. Not everyone shares that mentality, and I respect that. The common theme I picked up upon tonight (and in the past few weeks) is the discussion of the level of talent on each roster. On that front here are my thoughts:

it is not a straight-up measure of one roster against the other in terms of the individual talent of players. The disparity exists, as far as I'm concerned, in team philosophy. I do not believe that Houston's roster is full of better individual players; but it is pretty clear that every player on Houston's roster is a specific fit with defined roles.

Houston has a team identity. It is Harden. That identity is reinforced by coaching in D'Antoni and management in Morey. Every player on the roster is good on their own; but in this specific system centered around a unifying theme (Harden), they work better.

OKC may have some players who are better individually; but I do not see the same cohesiveness of team identity. I cannot enter a discussion of "if we switch Harden & Westbrook which team is better?" because that ignores the bigger picture. One team is currently constructed better than the other. It is not a damnation of OKC, as they have had to deal with some major identity issues with the departure of one of the best players in the NBA. The Rockets, as a system from top to bottom, kind of have something special going on right now, and I am really digging that vibe.

That said - there is A LOT of basketball left in this series. Again, as a General Board mod I appreciate how everyone has handled themselves in this thread. If I have missed anything then remember that I am not policing the thread. If anyone runs across a problem them please report the problem and do not escalate the issue. We are all here because we love basketball and we like getting the point of view of others. Let's keep it cool like that!

Love to OKC...but GO ROCKETS!

Sent from my E6533 using RealGM mobile app

[Fobbie]

Series far from over, Rockets did what they had to do. Now Thunders get a chance to even the series at home.

[FlatearthZorro]

He makes some poor decisions for sure, I dont know why he is so erratic but he needs to look in the mirror. I love russ but he needs make better decisions by not shooting low IQ shots

It's always been Russell's game. He shoots a ton of bad shots, noone has been able to change that(Brooks, Donovan etc). Just who he is. People enjoy watching him, he's a great player, but I never saw him as a winning player. Despite the 3 doubles and stuff, I think he's a me-first type player who shoots in the low 40's. 43 shots to score 51 points.

[ken6199]

If Westbrook HAS to take all of those shots because his supporting cast is that bad, then fine, I may disagree, but fine.

What can not be defended though, as far as I can see anyway, is the quality of the shots he took. Long twos and contested threes over and over. If you have to take all those shots could you not find easier ones? I mean you're the best athlete on the floor by far. How about posting up Pat Bev or something. Anything other than what I saw. And part of the blame for this goes to Billy D as well.

I don't think any OKC will say his quarter was anything but bad. You're right that he should get better shots. He got desperate and settled for hero shots. I can't really say I wish he'd passed more because they'd blown a bunch of easy ones. 5-20 in the paint tonight. But I hate the heat checks and possessions with nobody touching the ball but him. That's the Kobe in him though. You live with the 5% bad because of the 95% good.

Tonight just illustrates the small margin of error OKC is working with in this series. Even before the 4th, Russell was 13-25 with an incredible game all around, maybe the best performance we'll see from any player this playoffs through 3 quarters, and yet they were up only 3. That's with Harden having an average game. OKC's roster is totally outmatched in this series.

He was also very very tired playing the entire 4th quarter, and as a direct result of constant harassment from Beverley. Similar to Harden, who had to deal with Roberson's elite defense most of the game. Unfortunately for Westbrook, the talent different surrounding him and Harden, and more importantly the team setup, left him little choice other than jacking up shots after shots.

This reminds me of the last time these two teams met in the playoffs 4 years ago. It was 12-13 first round, we lost 2-4 (them without Westbrook). Harden didn't even have Dwight at that time, Lin, young Parsons, stone hand Asik were what he had to work with, but he still brought the best out of them, while having a 'mediocre' series himself. Westbrook arguably has better supporting cast this year compared to that Rockets team, we'll see if he makes some adjustment in game 3 & 4. He gotta let go some of his ego, which you can clearly see from his interviews.

[MoMan24]

Just watched LBJ's post game interview for game 2 and he was upset at himself for getting 8 turnovers. I have seen him say when he has played poorly before. Mind you he had a 25 10 7 4 4 game. That is a leader and someone I can play with. TT can yell back at him. To me Russel has never done anything wrong in his mind. I am not sure he ever says he played bad, or turned the ball over too much, or took too many shots. Its like the Thunder organization are held prisoner by this guy. That 4th quarter was an embarrassment, and no one should have beef with KD leaving that. If OKC wins it is cause Russ is MVP, if they lose it cause his teammates are all bums.

[karkinos]

to everyone saying wb's supporting cast sucks: you can't just expect his teammates to miraculously start shooting and shooting well if he decides to pass the ball in the post season. if wb was really invested in winning, he needed to and should have used the regular season to build team chemistry. he's going to go down every game gunning, and he probably should at this point since there's only so many games left. but there's a lot more to do in the offseason in his approach to winning.

[E-Balla]

How would you expect Oladipo to get into a rhythm when all he's doing is standing around on offense, knowing that the only way he will get the ball is if Westbrook needs to get bailed out. Give Oladipo opportunities early in the shot clock and let him play basketball and not stand around ball.

Have you considered that Oladipo just isn't that good of a player? He was painfully mediocre in Orlando before he even played with Westbrook.

He's not any more or less mediocre than Eric Gordon or Lou Williams. Both of those guys went for 21 tonight. Oladipo can do the same thing given the opportunities. If Oladipo had 21 points, the Thunder are tied 1-1.

Lmao Lou and EG carried Harden in the 1st half while roasting OKC. Lou was averaging 27 points per 36 in LA and EG played way better with Harden on the bench. Oladipo ain't as good as they are. Never has been. You want to talk about Dipo having 21 points? Maybe he would've if he wasn't 4-14 with 5 turnovers.

[SlowPaced]

To me Russel has never done anything wrong in his mind. I am not sure he ever says he played bad, or turned the ball over too much, or took too many shots.

Just two weeks ago when he was asked if he was playing to increase his assists, he answered with "I was 6/25".

So yeah, you're off.

[E-Balla]

And yeah Harden gets his teammates involved and so much better... Remind me again of how Taj Gibson's production took a dive after the trade and Lou's didn't? Oh wait Lou's production did take a dive and Taj's didn't.

Harden averages more time with the ball in his hands per game than Westbrook. He's even more of a ball hog and its obvious. Having capable teammates doesn't make it any less obvious.

[SlowPaced]

So many people are arguing that Russ' supporting cast is actually decent and he simply doesn't get them involved.

You think Steven Adams is a good player because of his DEFENSE. You think Andre Roberson is a decent player because of his DEFENSE. Russ' supporting cast is absolute trash offensively. They ranked dead last in three point percentage, they can't stretch the floor at all for Russ to operate. Their only playmaker outside of Russ is Oladipo, and he isn't a very good one.

Harden's cast is loaded with offensive talent. Great shooters all around. Tailor made system. Not the case with Russ. It's not even just the lack of offensive talent around him, it'a terrible fit. Westbrook is a penetrator that doesn't have anyone spacing the floor for him. And the only player that he can effectively play the two man game is Kanter, who gets limited minutes due to his terrible defense.

[Ice Trae]

And yeah Harden gets his teammates involved and so much better... Remind me again of how Taj Gibson's production took a dive after the trade and Lou's didn't? Oh wait Lou's production did take a dive and Taj's didn't.

Harden averages more time with the ball in his hands per game than Westbrook. He's even more of a ball hog and its obvious. Having capable teammates doesn't make it any less obvious.

uh what? WB has a higher usage rate than Harden...

[Slava]

35 points on 7 shots made, 20 free throw attempts to 17 field goal attempts. The quintessential James Harden game.

[E-Balla]

And yeah Harden gets his teammates involved and so much better... Remind me again of how Taj Gibson's production took a dive after the trade and Lou's didn't? Oh wait Lou's production did take a dive and Taj's didn't.

Harden averages more time with the ball in his hands per game than Westbrook. He's even more of a ball hog and its obvious. Having capable teammates doesn't make it any less obvious.

uh what? WB has a higher usage rate than Harden...

Usage rate means absolutely nothing in terms of time spent with the ball in their hands. It just means Westbrook ends more possessions. Westbrook was only 3rd in time of possession per game under Wall and Harden this year.

[Teckon]

So many people are arguing that Russ' supporting cast is actually decent and he simply doesn't get them involved.

You think Steven Adams is a good player because of his DEFENSE. You think Andre Roberson is a decent player because of his DEFENSE. Russ' supporting cast is absolute trash offensively. They ranked dead last in three point percentage, they can't stretch the floor at all for Russ to operate. Their only playmaker outside of Russ is Oladipo, and he isn't a very good one.

Harden's cast is loaded with offensive talent. Great shooters all around. Tailor made system. Not the case with Russ. It's not even just the lack of offensive talent around him, it'a terrible fit. Westbrook is a penetrator that doesn't have anyone spacing the floor for him. And the only player that he can effectively play the two man game is Kanter, who gets limited minutes due to his terrible defense.

So Russ supporting cast are good defensively but poor offensively and Kanter can be effective offensively but has terrible defense? The point is the Coach needs to develop scheme/plays to maximizing their players whether offensively or defensively. Basketball are played on both offensive and defensive ends. There are offensive players and there are defensive players. There are much fewer 2 ways players. Rockets have better offensive players but most of them are not good defensively. In Rockets' team there are only 2 defensively good players (Bevs and Ariza).

While Rockets can score, they also need to defend in order to win games. Rockets uses team defense to cover their individually poorer defense. In game 1, what impressed me is not the 118 points scored but the fact Rockets hold OKC to 87 points - much lower than OKC's average. In game 2, Rockets score their average 115 points and still win because OKC could not slow Rockets' offense even though OKC score 111 points - higher than OKC's average score. OKC has better defensive players and need to find way to slow Rockets' offense, not keeping offensive pace with Rockets. This loss is on Russ (PG) for failing to control the game tempo and offensive pace by playing hero ball in 4th quarter.

[Teckon]

And yeah Harden gets his teammates involved and so much better... Remind me again of how Taj Gibson's production took a dive after the trade and Lou's didn't? Oh wait Lou's production did take a dive and Taj's didn't.

Harden averages more time with the ball in his hands per game than Westbrook. He's even more of a ball hog and its obvious. Having capable teammates doesn't make it any less obvious.

uh what? WB has a higher usage rate than Harden...

Usage rate means absolutely nothing in terms of time spent with the ball in their hands. It just means Westbrook ends more possessions. Westbrook was only 3rd in time of possession per game under Wall and Harden this year.

According to NBA.com, all 3 (Westbrook, Harden, Walls) have the same time (8.9) per possession during Regular Season with Westbrook ranking 1st follows by Wall then Harden.
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
Please back up your claim with fact.