NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player

Moderators: bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285, Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake

Rupert Murdoch
Starter
Posts: 2,020
And1: 1,906
Joined: May 05, 2009

NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#1 » by Rupert Murdoch » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:35 am

Carmelo Anthony, whom the Knicks are considering acquiring in a trade, is sometimes thought of as a selfish player. Indeed, he is the center of the Denver Nuggets’ offense: when he is on the court for them, about 30 percent of their possessions end in Anthony shooting, going to the foul line, or committing a turnover. Nor is Anthony much of a passer: over his career, he’s accumulated 3.1 assists per 36 minutes played, considerably less than that of other high-volume scorers like Kobe Bryant (4.6 assists per 36 minutes) or LeBron James (6.2).

In taking all of those shots, however, Anthony has also done something else: he’s made his teammates much more efficient offensive players.

Anthony is a controversial player among those who devote their time to analyzing basketball statistics. The reason is as follows: although he scores a lot of points, he does not do so especially efficiently. His True Shooting Percentage (TS%) – which accounts not just for two-point buckets but also for three-point shots and drawing fouls, neither of which are a particular strength of Anthony’s – is .527 this year and .543 for his career. Those figures are roughly at the league average, which is about .540 in most years.

Anthony’s TS% is also worse than all five of the Knicks’ regular starters, including Wilson Chandler (.579), Danilo Gallinari (.600), and Landry Fields (.611), the men whom he might replace in the lineup. This has led some to argue that Anthony could actually represent a step backward for the Knicks. David Berri, an economist at Southern Utah University who has developed a statistic called Wins Produced that places an extremely high premium on efficiency, told the Wall Street Journal that a Knicks roster with Anthony, Amare Stoudemire and Raymond Felton — but without Fields or Chandler — would win only 29 games per season.

This strikes me as highly implausible: the Nuggets, with a supporting cast that isn’t obviously any better than the one that Anthony would be joining in New York, have won an average of 48 games per season since Anthony’s rookie year, despite playing in the deep Western Conference. They have also been a relatively efficient offensive team. The year before Anthony joined the Nuggets, they ranked dead last in the N.B.A. in offensive efficiency (points scored per possession) on their way to winning just 17 games. But their offensive efficiently ranking shot up to 8th in the league in Anthony’s rookie season and has remained roughly at that level since.

What is missing from formulas like Berri’s is an account of what Anthony does to the rest of the Nuggets. Because he is able to score from anywhere in the court, Anthony draws attention and defenders away from his teammates, sometimes leaving them with wide-open shots. He also allows them to be more selective about the shots that they choose to take, since they know that Anthony can usually get a respectable shot off before the 24-second clock expires if needed.

These effects produce a profound increase in the efficiency of Anthony’s supporting cast when he is on the floor. In the 135 games that he played with the Nuggets, for instance, Allen Iverson’s True Shooting Percentage was 55.9 percent – much better than the 51.2 TS% that Iverson, a notoriously inefficient shooter, posted outside of Denver over the course of his career.

In fact, this is true of almost every Nugget who has played a sufficient number of minutes with Anthony. I identified 16 players who have accumulated least 2,000 minutes with the Nuggets in years when Anthony was on the team, and have also played at least 2,000 minutes in the N.B.A. without Anthony (either because they were playing for a different team or because they were on the Nuggets before Anthony’s rookie season). All but 2 of the players – Marcus Camby and Voshon Lenard – posted a higher TS% playing with Anthony than without him, and on average, he improved his teammates’ TS% by 3.8 points (to 55.0 percent from 51.2 percent).

Image

The effect of a player who improves the rest of his team’s TS% by 3.8 points is extremely substantial: it is works out to their scoring about 5 or 5.5 additional points per game solely on the basis of this efficiency gain. That, in turn, translates into about 15 additional wins per season for an average team, according to a commonly-used formula. This is how Anthony creates most of his value — not in the shots he takes himself, but in the ones he creates for his teammates – and some of the “advanced” formulas completely miss it.

With that said, there is reason to question whether Anthony would have quite the same effect in New York that he did in Denver. With a few exceptions like Iverson, the Nuggets have generally surrounded Anthony with defensively-minded players like Camby who are not especially eager to shoot or who do not do so especially well. The Knicks, by contrast, are a run-and-gun team with lots of good shooters and they already rank fifth in the league in offensive efficiency.

There are some precedents for pairing several high-volume scorers together and seeing them thrive: when Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen joined Paul Pierce on the Celtics, for instance, all three players took fewer shots, but all three were rewarded with a significant increase in their TS%. On the other hand, Dwyane Wade, LeBron James and Chris Bosh have not seen an increase in their efficiency since joining together on the Miami Heat, even though they are shooting a bit less often.

So there are no guarantees – one would need to consider more carefully exactly how Anthony would integrate into Mike D’Antoni’s offense and exactly which type of shots he’d take. One would also need to think about Anthony’s defense and rebounding, where he is no standout. But upon a more careful examination, the argument that Anthony is a merely average offensive player turns out to be superficial.



http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/15/why-carmelo-anthony-is-the-ultimate-team-player-and-what-advanced-stats-miss-about-him/#more-5197
PanicBeats
Banned User
Posts: 901
And1: 0
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
Location: Philadelphia

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#2 » by PanicBeats » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:40 am

I am really so tired of hearing about Carmelo Anthony. Please trade him already Denver.
User avatar
ndnow
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,763
And1: 2,010
Joined: Feb 13, 2006
     

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#3 » by ndnow » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:45 am

I was wondering when the NY media would join the recruiting.
PanicBeats
Banned User
Posts: 901
And1: 0
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
Location: Philadelphia

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#4 » by PanicBeats » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:47 am

ndnow wrote:I was wondering when the NY media would join the recruiting.


The Mayor is next.
User avatar
the_warden
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,583
And1: 13
Joined: Jun 30, 2009
Location: TUCSON, AZ

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#5 » by the_warden » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:23 am

ndnow wrote:I was wondering when the NY media would join the recruiting.


We're calling Nate Silver "the NY media" now?
@RyanOutrich wrote:@chrisbosh seems just like yesterday u hatched ouuta ur shell and the ugliest dino of them all was born
User avatar
the_warden
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,583
And1: 13
Joined: Jun 30, 2009
Location: TUCSON, AZ

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#6 » by the_warden » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:26 am

He is as much "the NY media" as the Freakanomics guys, which is to say not at all.
@RyanOutrich wrote:@chrisbosh seems just like yesterday u hatched ouuta ur shell and the ugliest dino of them all was born
J Smitty
Banned User
Posts: 2,978
And1: 2
Joined: Nov 29, 2008
Location: South Park, Colorado

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#7 » by J Smitty » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:30 am

Melo is no stand out in rebounding, despite being the best rebounding small forward in the game. Yeah, keep believing that.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,350
And1: 22,382
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#8 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:01 am

Thanks for sharing this. btw, for those who don't know, Nate Silver is kind of a bad ass. Had the thread been titled with "Nate Silver" in it instead of "NY Times", that would have been more of an eye catcher to me.

For those interested, here's what I wrote in response on Times' site:

Nate, big fan of your political writing so I know you know your stuff. I'd be curious to know how familiar you are with Apbrmetrics (basketball's scrappy, less successful brother to Sabermetrics.
Your critique of Berri is right. For the life of me I'm not sure how he gets so much attention.
Your statements about Melo's impact on teammates TS%, what comparisons have you done with him compared to other stars? He's good, but exactly how much does he stand out?

Here's what comes to mind for me: We have what we call plus/minus statistics in basketball which directly measure how well a player's presence on the court correlates to scoreboard success. \"adjusted plus/minus\" or APM, attempts to use regression analysis to get a more precise measurement of what a player adds. Not fool-proof, but since you're already trying to use correlation of TS% to measure Melo's impact, it's not any kind of a stretch to really look at APM.

So, Melo NEVER impresses ridiculously with this metric, just as he never impresses ridiculously by any box score based all-in-one metric (PER, WP, WS, etc). Not saying he does poorly, just that he by no means looks like the top 5 player that his supporters think he is.

Here's a 6 year sample size from '03-04 to '08 of APM calculated by Steve Ilardi:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... l=en#gid=0

Things to note: Melo's offense is well above average. At +4.46, he is 18th among those listed in the analysis (which includes everyone playing more than X minutes in '08-09) as an offensive player. However, guys like LeBron and Wade are at +7 and greater. Meanwhile, Melo's defense is below average at -3.26, which makes his cumulative total of +1.2 quite pedestrian.

Expect him to help the Knicks if he comes, but do not think of him as somebody who is at all comparable to LeBron or prime Kevin Garnett for that matter.
Cheers,
http://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
ShelB
Banned User
Posts: 5,492
And1: 4
Joined: Oct 11, 2001
Location: White Vegas

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#9 » by ShelB » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:39 pm

the_warden wrote:
ndnow wrote:I was wondering when the NY media would join the recruiting.


We're calling Nate Silver "the NY media" now?

the_warden wrote:He is as much "the NY media" as the Freakanomics guys, which is to say not at all.


A member of the media is a member of the media is a member of the media.
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 92,222
And1: 31,807
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#10 » by tsherkin » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:54 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Thanks for sharing this. btw, for those who don't know, Nate Silver is kind of a bad ass. Had the thread been titled with "Nate Silver" in it instead of "NY Times", that would have been more of an eye catcher to me.

For those interested, here's what I wrote in response on Times' site:


Nice piece, Doc.
User avatar
Starkiller
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,014
And1: 269
Joined: Nov 24, 2009
     

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#11 » by Starkiller » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:21 pm

No chance in hell I'm reading all that just to be told that "Dude is the truth."
This ^
User avatar
Darain
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,294
And1: 39
Joined: Dec 09, 2010
Location: Florida

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#12 » by Darain » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:12 pm

Funny how JR smith benefits alot from carmello being gone
crowd goes wild wrote:Joel Anthony. Dude could probably give you around 27 ppg if he wasn't playing along side Chris Bosh.

I'm not a Kobe fan
nhh90 wrote:Kobe hasn't been doubled in a game since 07-08 season.
Azull
Sophomore
Posts: 113
And1: 0
Joined: Mar 02, 2009

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#13 » by Azull » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:53 pm

To see the real impact i would have to see the same chart for other teams and their top players. The best player on a team playing is going to make the game easier for teammates by virtue of drawing more defivsive attention of the other team. Without having a sample set to see how Melo compares to other top players in improveing his team its hard to say if this is a lot or a little.
User avatar
corona
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 15,940
And1: 234
Joined: Apr 29, 2006

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#14 » by corona » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:01 pm

One would also need to think about Anthony’s defense and rebounding, where he is no standout.

he has the same rebound% as amare stoudemire, a center.
malcrk
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,783
And1: 61
Joined: Jul 25, 2010

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#15 » by malcrk » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:58 pm

fivethirtyeight got picked up by the NY Times? That's awesome. I used to read that site all the time.
User avatar
HeyJoe
Starter
Posts: 2,323
And1: 12
Joined: Jul 15, 2010

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#16 » by HeyJoe » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:02 pm

corona wrote:
One would also need to think about Anthony’s defense and rebounding, where he is no standout.

he has the same rebound% as amare stoudemire, a center.


lol this is the first time i've seen melo's rebounding called into question

i keep saying nene's rebounding's underrated cause melo swats everything
User avatar
Ruhiel
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,502
And1: 45
Joined: Dec 28, 2010

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#17 » by Ruhiel » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:05 pm

since when is Amare a center? Carmelo is well known for beasting on the boards though
I feel that if Knicks land Carmelo they'll still need a guard to make a Big 3, and facilitate/spread the load. Melo and Amare will not be facilitating for each other. IDK i would like 2 see if NYK gets 2 the next level :D
J08
Banned User
Posts: 1,829
And1: 0
Joined: Oct 16, 2008

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#18 » by J08 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:21 pm

melo is probably the best rebounding small forward in the game right now, especially offensive rebounding. this guy is a beast on the boards.
Nutty Nats Fan
RealGM
Posts: 10,651
And1: 7,483
Joined: Aug 12, 2007

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#19 » by Nutty Nats Fan » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:48 pm

And for those calling Melo's defense in to question, when Melo is in the game this year, opposing SF's have a per of 10. If that isn't good defense, I don't know what is.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,350
And1: 22,382
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: NY Times: Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player 

Post#20 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:49 pm

ShelB wrote:
the_warden wrote:
ndnow wrote:I was wondering when the NY media would join the recruiting.


We're calling Nate Silver "the NY media" now?

the_warden wrote:He is as much "the NY media" as the Freakanomics guys, which is to say not at all.


A member of the media is a member of the media is a member of the media.


This kind of universal cynicism is annoying.

Silver is a guy who became a rock star among baseball statisticians and then transformed election prediction. He's a legit phenom that the Times desperately acquired and don't have the ability to say "Hey, write something positive about the Knicks" to, and yet people dismiss him simply because he's in the "media". It's just silly.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!

Return to The General Board