Jokic is the best player since Jordan

[dhsilv2]

Yes I agree, Shaq got somehow forgotten by OP, if we just talking skill, talent, ability, and not overall career achievements, which of course, Shaq has those as well. But Shaq is up there when it comes to peak dominance. Man was on another level.

I remember Bill and Lowe were discussing something few years ago, and they touched on Shaq's Heat trade, and Bill pretty nonchalant says - when you trade for that Shaq, even olded Shaq, he still pretty much guarantees you at least one trip to the finals still. -

Not sure that take is true. I mean, Shaq went to finals and won finals with the Heat, but was it guarantee I am not sure. But either way, how nany players in the last 40 years can even grant such claim to begin with? Certainly LeBron in my opinion. Does Jokic guarantee a trip to the finals, or can you at least see Bill or someone say such a thing?

The thing is, people just think that Shaq was a fat dude dunking on people.
He was an athlete even at 385lbs and his footwork was elite. Also, his passing skill was great for a guy who was often double/triple teamed and able to find the open man

Shaqs athleticism was absolutely insane. No one has moved under that weight as Shaq. I remember when CAVS played that game against Olympiacos, and we got Shaq vs Sofoklis. Even CAVS Shaq moved way better than Sofoklis and Shaq was actually stronger than him. They remain top 2 strongest basketball players I have ever seen and the gap between these 2 and the next guy who woukd be third place, is rather enourmous. I have no doubt it was the only time in Schortsanitis' career where he was overpowered and not just outrunned.

And yes, Shaq was a good passer, he was one of the best passing centers, was pretty good at long transition starting passes. Was not elite as Divac or Webber or Brad Miller even, and by todays standards, he wouldn't be special, but his passing was very good.

Was Shaq stronger than Ben Wallace? He was more massive and such he could leverage people more. But in terms of raw strength?

[1993Playoffs]

I disagree. I think shaq Jordan and LeBron peaked higher than Jokic.

[Cubbies2120]

As good as he is I still take peak Shaq but not mad at that ranking.

Edit: Went to check to see how many 20pt losses Shaq had in his '00 year and he had 1. In that game he was 13-17 and had 30pts lol. One could argue that in this current NBA, that Shaq just wouldn't allow his team to ever be down such a margin. He was that unguardable.

Jokic is extremely efficient but dunks are 99.999%. If you denied Shaq deep positioning one play, chances are he'd obtain it the very next play and score with ease. Some are either too young or forget just how dominant peak Shaq was. Forget the aesthetics and focus on pure dominance.

Interestingly Jokic at his peak efficiency season shot better from 0-3 feet than Shaq in his peak...

[dhsilv2]

5 years peak LA Shaq from 0-3 had a FG% of 0.764

Last 5 season Jokic from 0-3 had a FG% of 0.757

I consider 1 singular year to be one's peak and multiple years to be one's prime. So do '00 Shaq specifically and then do Jokic's best year and THEN report back.

you mean the '00 playoffs when the corps of 34 year old Pippen and 35 year old Sabonis almost eliminated LA?

With a prime Rasheed Wallace, Bonzi Wells, Damon Stoudamire, past his prime Steve Smith, and rising Briant Grant.

That blazers team was extremely deep.

[dhsilv2]

Can’t give him that over LeBron, sorry.

But if he even wins another couple I’d put him ahead of Steph and firmly top 10.

What year(s) do you consider Lebron's peak seasons? 2009 is generally seen as his best individual season though some I think put 2013 there. Thoses were his best seasons though. And in one of those he didn't win or even make the finals.

[Ssj16]

Funny, because if lakers had even 33-34year old lebron instead of 39, lakers are up 2-0 and this thread isn't made. But that's life.

This sounds like copium and also not accounting for the fact that Jokic has another gear and Murray had a very bad game until the last 5 minutes.

We could play the what if game all day but the fact is Jokic has shown over the past 4-5 years that his greatness is no fluke. No need to diminish it.

[nikster]

Lol Lebron played garbage teams in the East during those runs.
A few examples
2016 he faced Pistons first round with Reggie Jackson as its best player, Millsap Hawks 2nd round, Derozan in ECF. And that’s with Kyrie as his running mate who is all by himself better than those players.
2018 his so called GOAT run ECF was vs rookie Tatum. Jokic and Jordan would have just as easily crushed those teams as Lebron did.

And prime LeBron would've crushed the path Denver had last year too. As would many other non title winning teams from 2000-2020. There are 5 Jokic threads made a day seemingly now. Denver is (barely) beating a team led by a 39 year old Lebron and AD. Jokic is 29. The fact that Lebron is closely competing against him shows how much better Lebron was imo.

So when Lebron was 29, in 2014, would it be impressive for him to take down a 39 year old Jokic? I don't think so, it would've been expected, just as its expected for Denver to win this series. Similarly, swap 2014 Lebron in place for 39 year old Lebron this year, and the Lakers are probably up 2-0.

You talk as if Lebron dominated his opponents in his prime when he barely scraped by and even LOST to older teams too. Lost to Mavs with an older Dirk and old Kidd. Needed 7 games and a Ray Allen shot vs a 37 year old Duncan. Lost embarrassingly to 38 year old Duncan and pre-prime Kawhi. The fact that old Dirk and Duncan competed and WON vs Lebron shows how better prime Dirk and Duncan are. (Besides, what closely competing are you talking about? Lebron has lost 10 straight to Nuggets lol). Ya’ll Bron fans are just salty your King aint the King no more lol

Funny that you included Dirks. He was 32 for that 2011 title, that's within a normal window for a players prime. thats 7 years ago for Lebron, just a year after his 2016 title.

[hardenASG13]

Lol Lebron played garbage teams in the East during those runs.
A few examples
2016 he faced Pistons first round with Reggie Jackson as its best player, Millsap Hawks 2nd round, Derozan in ECF. And that’s with Kyrie as his running mate who is all by himself better than those players.
2018 his so called GOAT run ECF was vs rookie Tatum. Jokic and Jordan would have just as easily crushed those teams as Lebron did.

And prime LeBron would've crushed the path Denver had last year too. As would many other non title winning teams from 2000-2020. There are 5 Jokic threads made a day seemingly now. Denver is (barely) beating a team led by a 39 year old Lebron and AD. Jokic is 29. The fact that Lebron is closely competing against him shows how much better Lebron was imo.

So when Lebron was 29, in 2014, would it be impressive for him to take down a 39 year old Jokic? I don't think so, it would've been expected, just as its expected for Denver to win this series. Similarly, swap 2014 Lebron in place for 39 year old Lebron this year, and the Lakers are probably up 2-0.

You talk as if Lebron dominated his opponents in his prime when he barely scraped by and even LOST to older teams too. Lost to Mavs with an older Dirk and old Kidd. Needed 7 games and a Ray Allen shot vs a 37 year old Duncan. Lost embarrassingly to 38 year old Duncan and pre-prime Kawhi. The fact that old Dirk and Duncan competed and WON vs Lebron shows how better prime Dirk and Duncan are. (Besides, what closely competing are you talking about? Lebron has lost 10 straight to Nuggets lol). Ya’ll Bron fans are just salty your King aint the King no more lol

I'm not a Lebron fan. Dirk was 31 in 2011, but yeah the heat did choke. As far as 38 year old Duncan.......did you see the 2014 Spurs play?

How about responding to my points? Do you think things would be different in this series with 2014 Lebron in place of current, 39 year old Lebron? Do you think a 39 year old Jokic would be leading a team past 29 year old Lebron?

[Ssj16]

Hold your horses, sure I think jokers peak is up there but no way is he levels above guys like Lebron curry and shaq. At best they are around the same.

Jokers been dominating the league but he hasn't been more dominant as shaq or curry during their peak.

Joker is back to back mvp, 1 chip so far. His teams haven't completely crushed the regular season or playoffs. He's had his failings before and don't mention what ifs or oh he could've had 3 mvps. We could do the what if's for shaq curry and Lebron easily.

But the facts are:

Shaq 3 peated 16-1 in the playoffs. West playoffs teams all had their 14/15th roster guys lumbering bigs to deal with shaq aka foul him.

Curry had his teams go 67 and 73 wins, back to back mvp one unanimous, changed the way the game is now played. Then kd came and they dominated the league two more years but that turned into a super team.

Lebrons peak is just as good with the mvps and 2 titles in Miami even if it's a super team.

Joker has passed Curry's peak in the playoffs. He still needs to keep building his resume to put him a head of Curry career wise but Jokic has been fairly dominant in the playoffs with less help. If Curry won those other 2 championships without KD, this would probably be a different discussion.

[KembaWalker]

Jokic is better than Jordan, just not as great (yet)

He is a joy to watch

[mcmurphy]

He needs to tie LeBron in rings first for me to even entertain that conversation

IMHO It will just depend on when he stops playing
If he plays until he's 40 (maybe to buy a few more horses) I'm sure that another 3 rings aren't so unattainable.
I imagine a 35 year old Jokic playing 25-30 minutes in SAS with Wemby (and 80 years old Pop)

[Ssj16]

And prime LeBron would've crushed the path Denver had last year too. As would many other non title winning teams from 2000-2020. There are 5 Jokic threads made a day seemingly now. Denver is (barely) beating a team led by a 39 year old Lebron and AD. Jokic is 29. The fact that Lebron is closely competing against him shows how much better Lebron was imo.

So when Lebron was 29, in 2014, would it be impressive for him to take down a 39 year old Jokic? I don't think so, it would've been expected, just as its expected for Denver to win this series. Similarly, swap 2014 Lebron in place for 39 year old Lebron this year, and the Lakers are probably up 2-0.

You talk as if Lebron dominated his opponents in his prime when he barely scraped by and even LOST to older teams too. Lost to Mavs with an older Dirk and old Kidd. Needed 7 games and a Ray Allen shot vs a 37 year old Duncan. Lost embarrassingly to 38 year old Duncan and pre-prime Kawhi. The fact that old Dirk and Duncan competed and WON vs Lebron shows how better prime Dirk and Duncan are. (Besides, what closely competing are you talking about? Lebron has lost 10 straight to Nuggets lol). Ya’ll Bron fans are just salty your King aint the King no more lol

I'm not a Lebron fan. Dirk was 31 in 2011, but yeah the heat did choke. As far as 38 year old Duncan.......did you see the 2014 Spurs play?

How about responding to my points? Do you think things would be different in this series with 2014 Lebron in place of current, 39 year old Lebron? Do you think a 39 year old Jokic would be leading a team past 29 year old Lebron?

What's the point about bringing up prime LeBron? As mentioned, you swap out Jokic with prime LeBron and Miami probably wins an extra chip. The what-ifs are so lame because Jokic has proven he's a made man.

[Jta444]

And prime LeBron would've crushed the path Denver had last year too. As would many other non title winning teams from 2000-2020. There are 5 Jokic threads made a day seemingly now. Denver is (barely) beating a team led by a 39 year old Lebron and AD. Jokic is 29. The fact that Lebron is closely competing against him shows how much better Lebron was imo.

So when Lebron was 29, in 2014, would it be impressive for him to take down a 39 year old Jokic? I don't think so, it would've been expected, just as its expected for Denver to win this series. Similarly, swap 2014 Lebron in place for 39 year old Lebron this year, and the Lakers are probably up 2-0.

You talk as if Lebron dominated his opponents in his prime when he barely scraped by and even LOST to older teams too. Lost to Mavs with an older Dirk and old Kidd. Needed 7 games and a Ray Allen shot vs a 37 year old Duncan. Lost embarrassingly to 38 year old Duncan and pre-prime Kawhi. The fact that old Dirk and Duncan competed and WON vs Lebron shows how better prime Dirk and Duncan are. (Besides, what closely competing are you talking about? Lebron has lost 10 straight to Nuggets lol). Ya’ll Bron fans are just salty your King aint the King no more lol

I'm not a Lebron fan. Dirk was 31 in 2011, but yeah the heat did choke. As far as 38 year old Duncan.......did you see the 2014 Spurs play?

How about responding to my points? Do you think things would be different in this series with 2014 Lebron in place of current, 39 year old Lebron? Do you think a 39 year old Jokic would be leading a team past 29 year old Lebron?

That’s why I just said older Dirk because he is older and also old Kidd. I mean if Dirk had prime Wade instead of old Kidd, Lebron wouldve been swept again lmao. Anyway we dont know what 38 year old Jokic is his game might age nicely because he is a big. 29 year old Bron doesnt have the same IQ and shooting now Aaron Gordon might have an easier time vs a more athletic but lower IQ and shooting Lebron. Yall bron fans act as if there’s a Lebron that combined high athleticism high IQ great shooting when he didnt really have all those at once. So yea tell me then why cant 39 year old Lebron lead a team like 39 year old Duncan did. He has AD which is so much more better than old Manu and young Kawhi. Just face it, Lebron ball is not that effective. 4 championships in 22 years that not a good rate dude

[Lockdown504090]

As good as he is I still take peak Shaq but not mad at that ranking.

Edit: Went to check to see how many 20pt losses Shaq had in his '00 year and he had 1. In that game he was 13-17 and had 30pts lol. One could argue that in this current NBA, that Shaq just wouldn't allow his team to ever be down such a margin. He was that unguardable.

Jokic is extremely efficient but dunks are 99.999%. If you denied Shaq deep positioning one play, chances are he'd obtain it the very next play and score with ease. Some are either too young or forget just how dominant peak Shaq was. Forget the aesthetics and focus on pure dominance.

Interestingly Jokic at his peak efficiency season shot better from 0-3 feet than Shaq in his peak...

Lebron has been as good in the pain now as he was in his prime too. Maybe we should t compare paint fg% between 2004 and 20024 because of spacing and rule changes in such a simple way? Maybe relative numbers based on volume and efficiency. Jokic is still awesome, just not the best way to do this

[hardenASG13]

You talk as if Lebron dominated his opponents in his prime when he barely scraped by and even LOST to older teams too. Lost to Mavs with an older Dirk and old Kidd. Needed 7 games and a Ray Allen shot vs a 37 year old Duncan. Lost embarrassingly to 38 year old Duncan and pre-prime Kawhi. The fact that old Dirk and Duncan competed and WON vs Lebron shows how better prime Dirk and Duncan are. (Besides, what closely competing are you talking about? Lebron has lost 10 straight to Nuggets lol). Ya’ll Bron fans are just salty your King aint the King no more lol

I'm not a Lebron fan. Dirk was 31 in 2011, but yeah the heat did choke. As far as 38 year old Duncan.......did you see the 2014 Spurs play?

How about responding to my points? Do you think things would be different in this series with 2014 Lebron in place of current, 39 year old Lebron? Do you think a 39 year old Jokic would be leading a team past 29 year old Lebron?

That’s why I just said older Dirk because he is older and also old Kidd. I mean if Dirk had prime Wade instead of old Kidd, Lebron wouldve been swept again lmao. Anyway we dont know what 38 year old Jokic is his game might age nicely because he is a big. 29 year old Bron doesnt have the same IQ and shooting now Aaron Gordon might have an easier time vs a more athletic but lower IQ and shooting Lebron. Yall bron fans act as if there’s a Lebron that combined high athleticism high IQ great shooting when he didnt really have all those at once. So yea tell me then why cant 39 year old Lebron lead a team like 39 year old Duncan did. He has AD which is so much more better than old Manu and young Kawhi. Just face it, Lebron ball is not that effective. 4 championships in 22 years that not a good rate dude

Championships are hard to win. Winning 4 of them is good.
To the point about Duncan. 39 year old Lebron can lead a team like 39 year old Duncan did. Better, in fact. The 2014 spurs were just an extremely good team, top to bottom, and played beautiful basketball. The Lakers arent/don't, not nearly to the level of the 2014 spurs. That was a well oiled machine.

Believe it or not, the 2014 spurs were better than current Denver. Jokic and Denver have never played a team as close to as good as them, or the 2011 mavericks for that matter, in a playoff series.

[tsherkin]

Maybe we should t compare paint fg% between 2004 and 20024 because of spacing and rule changes in such a simple way?

24.1% of shots were 0-3 feet in the RS this year, at 69.9% FG.

In 04, 29.7% in that range at 59.2%.

[Roger Murdock]

I think in an ideal matchup Jokic is probably better than LeBron or Jordan but LeBron and Jordan are the most versatile players of all time and don’t have exploitable weaknesses.

Movement offense that pressures all 3 levels can exploit Jokic’s footspeed. The Celtics might be able to abuse this - we haven’t seen it since GSW and that wasn’t a fair matchup with the injured roster.

[Jta444]

I'm not a Lebron fan. Dirk was 31 in 2011, but yeah the heat did choke. As far as 38 year old Duncan.......did you see the 2014 Spurs play?

How about responding to my points? Do you think things would be different in this series with 2014 Lebron in place of current, 39 year old Lebron? Do you think a 39 year old Jokic would be leading a team past 29 year old Lebron?

That’s why I just said older Dirk because he is older and also old Kidd. I mean if Dirk had prime Wade instead of old Kidd, Lebron wouldve been swept again lmao. Anyway we dont know what 38 year old Jokic is his game might age nicely because he is a big. 29 year old Bron doesnt have the same IQ and shooting now Aaron Gordon might have an easier time vs a more athletic but lower IQ and shooting Lebron. Yall bron fans act as if there’s a Lebron that combined high athleticism high IQ great shooting when he didnt really have all those at once. So yea tell me then why cant 39 year old Lebron lead a team like 39 year old Duncan did. He has AD which is so much more better than old Manu and young Kawhi. Just face it, Lebron ball is not that effective. 4 championships in 22 years that not a good rate dude

Championships are hard to win. Winning 4 of them is good.
To the point about Duncan. 39 year old Lebron can lead a team like 39 year old Duncan did. Better, in fact. The 2014 spurs were just an extremely good team, top to bottom, and played beautiful basketball. The Lakers arent/don't, not nearly to the level of the 2014 spurs. That was a well oiled machine.

Believe it or not, the 2014 spurs were better than current Denver. Jokic and Denver have never played a team as close to as good as them, or the 2011 mavericks for that matter, in a playoff series.

Lmao how can a 39 year old Bron be a better leader than 39 year old Duncan when he keeps getting swept and Duncan actually won the chip that year in a tough West and vs a prime Lebron? That 2014 Spurs was good bec of Duncan’s defense and unselfishness and leadership all of which Lebron doesnt have as a 39 year old. He cant play good defense, he whines instead of being an example to teammates, and hogs the ball and doesnt create plays for AD and just wants to accumulate counting stats. Complete opposite of Duncan. Put 39 year old Lebron in that 2014 Spurs team instead of Duncan and they dont win the chip. Lebron ball is just not that good. Of your 4 championships, 2 were on shortened weird seasons. 2 he got bailed out by Ray and Kyrie and needed game 7’s and whining to get Draymond suspended just to win.

[dhsilv2]

And prime LeBron would've crushed the path Denver had last year too. As would many other non title winning teams from 2000-2020. There are 5 Jokic threads made a day seemingly now. Denver is (barely) beating a team led by a 39 year old Lebron and AD. Jokic is 29. The fact that Lebron is closely competing against him shows how much better Lebron was imo.

So when Lebron was 29, in 2014, would it be impressive for him to take down a 39 year old Jokic? I don't think so, it would've been expected, just as its expected for Denver to win this series. Similarly, swap 2014 Lebron in place for 39 year old Lebron this year, and the Lakers are probably up 2-0.

You talk as if Lebron dominated his opponents in his prime when he barely scraped by and even LOST to older teams too. Lost to Mavs with an older Dirk and old Kidd. Needed 7 games and a Ray Allen shot vs a 37 year old Duncan. Lost embarrassingly to 38 year old Duncan and pre-prime Kawhi. The fact that old Dirk and Duncan competed and WON vs Lebron shows how better prime Dirk and Duncan are. (Besides, what closely competing are you talking about? Lebron has lost 10 straight to Nuggets lol). Ya’ll Bron fans are just salty your King aint the King no more lol

Funny that you included Dirks. He was 32 for that 2011 title, that's within a normal window for a players prime. thats 7 years ago for Lebron, just a year after his 2016 title.

32 is for sure prime, but it's virtually unheard of to consider that as a peak season. And I'd tend to argue it was the peak of either guy. Just perhaps their best playoff runs combined with good team composition and results.

[Cubbies2120]

I'm not a Lebron fan. Dirk was 31 in 2011, but yeah the heat did choke. As far as 38 year old Duncan.......did you see the 2014 Spurs play?

How about responding to my points? Do you think things would be different in this series with 2014 Lebron in place of current, 39 year old Lebron? Do you think a 39 year old Jokic would be leading a team past 29 year old Lebron?

That’s why I just said older Dirk because he is older and also old Kidd. I mean if Dirk had prime Wade instead of old Kidd, Lebron wouldve been swept again lmao. Anyway we dont know what 38 year old Jokic is his game might age nicely because he is a big. 29 year old Bron doesnt have the same IQ and shooting now Aaron Gordon might have an easier time vs a more athletic but lower IQ and shooting Lebron. Yall bron fans act as if there’s a Lebron that combined high athleticism high IQ great shooting when he didnt really have all those at once. So yea tell me then why cant 39 year old Lebron lead a team like 39 year old Duncan did. He has AD which is so much more better than old Manu and young Kawhi. Just face it, Lebron ball is not that effective. 4 championships in 22 years that not a good rate dude

Championships are hard to win. Winning 4 of them is good.
To the point about Duncan. 39 year old Lebron can lead a team like 39 year old Duncan did. Better, in fact. The 2014 spurs were just an extremely good team, top to bottom, and played beautiful basketball. The Lakers arent/don't, not nearly to the level of the 2014 spurs. That was a well oiled machine.

Believe it or not, the 2014 spurs were better than current Denver. Jokic and Denver have never played a team as close to as good as them, or the 2011 mavericks for that matter, in a playoff series.

I don’t agree that the Spurs cast of players is better as a whole, but the Nuggets have the - by far - best player in the world and a guy whose having a top 3 all-time peak. So even if the Spurs are better the Nuggets would win.

I know you’re just mad and venting because the usual Embiid choke job is going on, but please don’t continue being a hater of the Jokic-led Nuggets in every possible thread. Just focus on coping through the last 2 games of Philly’s season and listening to Nurse and Embiid (of all people!) complain about an unfair whistle.