Jokic is not the best in the world, and has been heavily overrated (NOW YOU CAN CHANGE VOTES)

[dhsilv2]

Gobert being a zero on offense and being as slow as he is on defense hasn't exactly helped the last few games.

Just because I don't make outrageous claims, like Gobert was the best player for Minnesota in game 1 (where Edwards had 43 points and Gobert had 6. If you've ever played in a basketball game, you'd know if a guy has 43, he had a better game than someone who scored 6) or that Mutumbo was more valuable to the 01 sixers than Allen Iverson, doesn't mean all I value is points. I understand Jokic creates for others. I also understand his team was unconscious shooting the ball from 3 last night, and always having 5 guys who can shoot it from outside on the court is an advantage for them this series, as opposed to Minnesota who often has two non shooters out there when Gobert and McDaniels are playing.

I've called for Jokic to look to score more, and he did last night. It was amazing.

Gobert isn't slow at all...he's one of the most mobile big men at his size we've seen. I just don't even know how to respond to just obviously false statements.

And meanwhile the Nuggets don't have 5 guys who can shoot at all times. The biggest reason they lost game 1 was the inability to use Gordon which was heavily the work of Gobert. Gordon has responded by confidently taking 3's despite being a 30% shooter from out there and it's working.

Now all your "Bro" talk aside with the 40 points stuff. I do agree that Gobert has a small negative impact on offense. He however is far more than making up for it on the defensive end. The problem as ANT very clearly laid things out...it's just REALLY hard to beat a team when their offense has a guy like Jokic who just doesn't make mistakes in terms of decision making. As long as the Nuggets are able to avoid turnovers and protect the ball, the Wolves are going to either need cold shooting or absolutely perfect defensive execution to win this series. As I laid our before, ANT can drop 40 a game...that won't win them the series. They have to win on defense, that's what got them here, and that's where they have to win. And defense is always a team effort, and with the wolves it's a team effort built around Gobert.

But if their defense can stop Denver either way (I don't expect Denver to continue shooting it like that), won't they need to play better offensively to win this series?

The Nuggets don't have 5 guys who can shoot at all times? Who do they play who isn't a threat to shoot. Why have they benched watson, who is a defender?

Do you think Gobert had a better game than Edwards in game 4 with his positioning and stuff? It's just as outrageous as saying he did in game 1.

The difficulty to evaluating defense is that you can do all the right things and have more or less impact game to game. Game 1 Gobert was central to forcing turnovers which as we know have variance. Jokic could have taken better care of the ball for example, but Goberts length and the non shooter in Gordon not being able to draw more attention lead to Jokic forcing things and sometimes just getting sloppy with the ball. Game 4, Gobert was fine, but the results weren't the same. We see similar things with offensive players where someone like Curry can have a 20 point game but he absolutely just crushed the other team because he kept drawing second defenders and it results in his "other guys" torching a team. Meanwhile...he can do that in another game and the ball doesn't fall. And we'll even see it with Jokic who is no Curry in terms of gravity, but if Murray can't get points off those screens and pick and rolls where Jokic just clears out 2-3 feet of space around him...he made the right play. He crushed...didn't have the impact.

So can we grade/evaluate a guy who creates when his team doesn't capitalize? That's honestly really difficult. I suppose you can create some tools of say value add, assigning value play by play and doing a deep film dive. I'd love to see some work like that done and then we could compare it back against the various RAPM metrics and perhaps we could carve out something. That said...I doubt we can get a team of people to do that for free for us...and I doubt the NBA guys who do that are going to share.

So, we kinda gotta use our eyes and watch where value is coming and accept that when something works exceptionally well, we should just give credit where credit is due.

Oh and I don't think the wolves have the team to beat the Nuggets in a shoot out. I'd be open to being wrong. And if they do...maybe you can replace Gobert if that's the strategy. But again...I don't see it. They have to win on defense. They are going to have to slow the Nuggets getting the ball up court. They are going to have to force turnovers and mistakes. And they'll going to have to find ways to exploit weak shooters.

[Woodsanity]

Nah man. Most of that was by the end of the 3rd quarter. 4 points in the 4th.

Unless you want to argue the whole 3rd quarter is garbage time despite it being only a 15 point game at half

This guy only values points per game. It's going to be impossible to explain to him that Jokic's game is built on his ability to create for others and through that his team wins games.

Just like Gobert is only playing good defense if he has a lot of blocks or steals, never mind he changes the geometry of the court and consistently makes the right reads and responses. Never mind his team is better with him on the court. And similarly, anytime someone scores in the paint on the Nuggets, it'll be Jokic's fault.

And remember, if you think Gobert or Jokic is great, you're a starts nerd. Also if Gobert doesn't get 5+ blocks or Jokic doesn't get 35+ points....they played bad because of you know...their stats.

Gobert being a zero on offense and being as slow as he is on defense hasn't exactly helped the last few games.

Just because I don't make outrageous claims, like Gobert was the best player for Minnesota in game 1 (where Edwards had 43 points and Gobert had 6. If you've ever played in a basketball game, you'd know if a guy has 43, he had a better game than someone who scored 6) or that Mutumbo was more valuable to the 01 sixers than Allen Iverson, doesn't mean all I value is points. I understand Jokic creates for others. I also understand his team was unconscious shooting the ball from 3 last night, and always having 5 guys who can shoot it from outside on the court is an advantage for them this series, as opposed to Minnesota who often has two non shooters out there when Gobert and McDaniels are playing.

I've called for Jokic to look to score more, and he did last night. It was amazing.

I would blame Kat a lot more than Gobert for game 4. Kat was utterly pathetic.

[Woodsanity]

What is this, are you seriously suggesting Murray isn't a top 30 player now? Come on man, be serious. He's top 20 at worst, with Jokic having multiple other top 40ish players. I'm not going to say the nuggets are the most stacked team in the NBA, but they for sure have one of the top 3 rosters in the NBA and Murray is the best closer in the game. Jokic is a great 40 minute player, but we've seen what he is without Murray for an entire season and now in these playoffs. He's good, but he's not ATG unless you're just Boxscore watching. Sometimes we say players are more than the sum of their parts, like a butler. But Jokic is less than the sum of his parts. The stats are deceiving.

OP, I can't believe ur actually doubling down on of the worst takes in RealGM history haha

fwiw, rs Murray is NOT a top 30 player, period but it'd be hard to argue he isn't a top 30 player in the playoffs, because he is. he's probably right around there tbh. the "closer" argument is absouletly ridicilous because a,) Jokic is a hell of a closer and he proved it over and over in both the rs and the playoffs and B.) Murray plays off Jokic and his immense gravity - put him on the Pistons and let him "close" see where that gets ya

Jokic is the defintion of being "more than the sum of his parts" (or stats), so much of what he does isn't captured in the boxscore, much more so than other superstars, even moreso than his gaudy all-around stats suggest, not to mention his numbers aren't capturing his leadership (on and off the court), his control of the game, directing traffic on both offense and defense. I mean some of it is captured by impact stats obviously but def not in raw stats

the "we've seen what he's like without Murray" is a ridicilous argument and disingenious at that - Jokic not only played that whole season without his #2, he also played without his #3 (MPJ). both happen to be max players, so there was a whole season of two max players sitting on the bench and Jokic carried Campazzo, Austin Rivers and Will Barton almost to 50 wins

the guys who were in the rotation that year (aside from AG) were basically out of the league the next season.
that's not the same as "playing without Murray" now, is it? lmfao

p.s, losing the first two games of this series with Murray going something like 3-18 from the field, isn't the same as "playing without Murray" either, it's playing with a huge net negative that is Murray (in those games), that's hardly the same thing

you doubling down on this stupidity is pure entertainment

He's a top 10 player in the playoffs.

.

He definitely hasn't been a top 10 player these playoffs. Even last game where I thought he played ok he only scored 19 points on 17 shots.

Actually kind of scary. Nuggets have gotten a very mediocre Murray, imagine he starts getting hot?

[Exp0sed]

.

He definitely hasn't been a top 10 player these playoffs. Even last game where I thought he played ok he only scored 19 points on 17 shots.

Actually kind of scary. Nuggets have gotten a very mediocre Murray, imagine he starts getting hot?

fwiw I didn't mean these playoffs, I meant in general. he hasn't been a 100% all season long it's not just this calf injury, he also missed a large chunk of games late in the season with an unrelated issue and he was basically brought back in so he'd be ready for the playoffs, if it was the midseason he would have stayed out a couple more weeks for sure

he hasn't been a top 10 playoff player this season (so far), no doubt about that

edit: MPJ was straight fire vs. the Lakers, AG has been much better than rs AG and he is on a serious heater (that's bound to cool down) and even guys like Reggie and Holiday had some serious flashes whereas they were mostly pretty bad in the rs, so all in all it balanaces itself out. it's ok to have half of Murray if AG is going for 25/15

[Sgt Major]

[dhsilv2]

.

He definitely hasn't been a top 10 player these playoffs. Even last game where I thought he played ok he only scored 19 points on 17 shots.

Actually kind of scary. Nuggets have gotten a very mediocre Murray, imagine he starts getting hot?

fwiw I didn't mean these playoffs, I meant in general. he hasn't been a 100% all season long it's not just this calf injury, he also missed a large chunk of games late in the season with an unrelated issue and he was basically brought back in so he'd be ready for the playoffs, if it was the midseason he would have stayed out a couple more weeks for sure

he hasn't been a top 10 playoff player this season (so far), no doubt about that

edit: MPJ was straight fire vs. the Lakers, AG has been much better than rs AG and he is on a serious heater (that's bound to cool down) and even guys like Reggie and Holiday had some serious flashes whereas they were mostly pretty bad in the rs, so all in all it balanaces itself out. it's ok to have half of Murray if AG is going for 25/15

Big part of AG's recent success is that the wolves are trying to leave him open and daring him to make them pay for it. Guys tend to shoot better in those scenarios. Not that he isn't on a shot shooting streak on top of that.

[Exp0sed]

just might be the GOAT floor raiser

now that Nuggets evened the series, all we're hearing is how the "others" stepped up and how Denver has the most "complete" roster in the league (except maybe a healthy Boston). all their guys are good players but they would look very differently playing different roles, in different systems and without the Joker. he's just a player maximizer, his processor is so good, once he figures out where and how you are effective on the floor, he'll create those opportunities for u

and that's without even going to the most important aspect which is his leadership by example. just like AG said at the presser after game 4, if ur superstar is selfless..how can u be selfish?

Malone deserves some credit for this as well but ultimately, the Nuggets players are bought in and fully commited. u put KCP on these Suns and maybe he doesn't give af...but everyone is together and everyone give af and hold each other accountable and Jokic is the primary reason for that

put AG on the Clippers and see what happens..or god forbid next to the low charchter \ low I.Q Embiid

these numbers in the table above are really nuts
Bruce Brown got 25m from Indy and got traded in a heartbeat, Jokic is making all of these guys play better and be better. that's remarkable.

[Sweet Serenity]

Anyone who still argues Embiid over Jokic in 2024 instantly loses all credibility. The guy's a soon to be 3x MVP and had literally one of the greatest playoff runs ever last year, now all the vultures want to come out for his first subpar playoff play in years.

Sports fans in the social media era just suck.

Embiid when fully healthy is better than Jokic fully healthy. He outplays him in head to head majority of the time. And you can also see the huge drop off in sixers play when hes out. His impact on offense and defense can not be undestated. This is very clear to an unbiased non embiid hater. The problem is embiid almost always compromised due to him being injury prone and that's what keeps this comparison close or slight edge towards jokic.

Thanks for your input ‘chokic’

I get second-hand embarrassment at his username

[Woodsanity]

Every teammate he makes better unlike certain other "superstars"....

Also so many brutally mediocre/bad teammates on that list.

[Biff]

just might be the GOAT floor raiser

now that Nuggets evened the series, all we're hearing is how the "others" stepped up and how Denver has the most "complete" roster in the league (except maybe a healthy Boston). all their guys are good players but they would look very differently playing different roles, in different systems and without the Joker. he's just a player maximizer, his processor is so good, once he figures out where and how you are effective on the floor, he'll create those opportunities for u

and that's without even going to the most important aspect which is his leadership by example. just like AG said at the presser after game 4, if ur superstar is selfless..how can u be selfish?

Malone deserves some credit for this as well but ultimately, the Nuggets players are bought in and fully commited. u put KCP on these Suns and maybe he doesn't give af...but everyone is together and everyone give af and hold each other accountable and Jokic is the primary reason for that

put AG on the Clippers and see what happens..or god forbid next to the low charchter \ low I.Q Embiid

these numbers in the table above are really nuts
Bruce Brown got 25m from Indy and got traded in a heartbeat, Jokic is making all of these guys play better and be better. that's remarkable.

Eh, Bruce Browns stats on Indy were almost identical to last year with the Nuggets. He wasn't traded because he was underperforming.

Good passers often have the effect of raising the floor. Lots of guys had career years playing for the Suns when Nash was running things. Jason Richardson shot 58% TS% his 3 years with the Suns and has a career TS% of 53%. Raja Bell 57% with the Suns and 52% with the Jazz.

[Jabroni Lames]

Where are all those guys who said Jokic' doesn't have to face big defensive centers, like they had back in the 90's? Well, he's dominating the 7'2", 4-time reigning DPOY.

Like I said... Jokic can beat you in so many ways. If it's Gobert, he's drawing him out of the paint and making plays above the break... opening up the lane for his teammates and nullifying Rudy's real benefit. If it's KAT, he can abuse him in the post or kick out to shooters when the double team comes. Jokic is an entirely different type of animal than they had back in the 90s.... we done with that.

[TheGeneral99]

Absolutely sick.

[Exp0sed]

Eh, Bruce Browns stats on Indy were almost identical to last year with the Nuggets. He wasn't traded because he was underperforming.

Good passers often have the effect of raising the floor. Lots of guys had career years playing for the Suns when Nash was running things. Jason Richardson shot 58% TS% his 3 years with the Suns and has a career TS% of 53%. Raja Bell 57% with the Suns and 52% with the Jazz.

ur right, Brown might not be the best example (and yes he wasn't traded because of his play but rather his salary was needed to match).

[Ambrose]

And to take this further:

Barton goes from playing 32.1 mpg averaging 14.7 ppg on 54.8% TS in Denver to 17.7 mpg, 6.8 ppg on 50.4% TS on two different teams the next year, and then is out of the league at 32.

Morris goes from playing 29.9 mpg, 12.6 ppg on 58.3% TS to 27.3 mpg, 10.3 ppg on 57.9% TS in Washington, then gets moved twice in the next year. Morris is out of the rotation right now for the Timberwolves at 28.

Jeff Green and Bruce Brown played fairly similarly their first years on new teams.

Facundo Campazzo went from playing 20 mpg for two years to a DNP-CD guy in Dallas at 31, then out of the league.

Austin Rivers played 22.0 mpg, scoring 6.0 ppg on 54.6% TS. Produced similarly in MN the next year, then out of the league at 30.

Paul Millsap went from spot starter in Denver to reserve on two teams the next year, and then out of the league. Though to be fair he was 36.

Bones Hyland was a rotation guy for Denver for three years. He gets traded to LAC, his mpg, ppg and TS% all decrease, and at 23 he's not even part of their playoff rotation.

JaMychal Green is a rotation guy in Denver. Goes to the Warriors, actually plays a little better, then out of the league the next year at 32.

PJ Dozier played a rotational role in Denver for a few seasons. Goes to Sacramento, isn't part of the rotation, and out of the league at 26.

Gary Harris has hung around and been a solid rotation guy for Orlando.

Vlatko Cancar played for a few years in Denver, EDIT: Still in Denver, injured.

Bryn Forbes played a little bit for Denver in 2022. Played for MN in 2023 and his numbers fell off a cliff. Then out of the league at 29.

Shaq Harrison played more games in his half season in Denver (17) then he has in his entire career since (3 years, 3 teams, 10 games played).

Basically, 90% of the guys had a two-year career or less after leaving Denver. The carry job Jokic had for two years was unreal. When people say "Denver has the best supporting cast in the league" I want to laugh. Gordon comes to Denver...all of a sudden, he's an elite role player and went from below average efficiency guy to well above, KCP goes to Denver and immediately becomes the most efficient he's ever been while playing better defense. We haven't seen Murray and Porter Jr. without Jokic, but I'm extremely confident it would not go well for them. Life is easy when you get to play with the best player in the world.

[Exp0sed]

Absolutely sick.

C. Braun is 27 pts worse with Jokic off to on, that's wild
Murray is at 20, it's good for Jokic that he has a superstar like Murray by his side

[famicommander]

And to take this further:

Barton goes from playing 32.1 mpg averaging 14.7 ppg on 54.8% TS in Denver to 17.7 mpg, 6.8 ppg on 50.4% TS on two different teams the next year, and then is out of the league at 32.

Morris goes from playing 29.9 mpg, 12.6 ppg on 58.3% TS to 27.3 mpg, 10.3 ppg on 57.9% TS in Washington, then gets moved twice in the next year. Morris is out of the rotation right now for the Timberwolves at 28.

Jeff Green and Bruce Brown played fairly similarly their first years on new teams.

Facundo Campazzo went from playing 20 mpg for two years to a DNP-CD guy in Dallas at 31, then out of the league.

Austin Rivers played 22.0 mpg, scoring 6.0 ppg on 54.6% TS. Produced similarly in MN the next year, then out of the league at 30.

Paul Millsap went from spot starter in Denver to reserve on two teams the next year, and then out of the league. Though to be fair he was 36.

Bones Hyland was a rotation guy for Denver for three years. He gets traded to LAC, his mpg, ppg and TS% all decrease, and at 23 he's not even part of their playoff rotation.

JaMychal Green is a rotation guy in Denver. Goes to the Warriors, actually plays a little better, then out of the league the next year at 32.

PJ Dozier played a rotational role in Denver for a few seasons. Goes to Sacramento, isn't part of the rotation, and out of the league at 26.

Gary Harris has hung around and been a solid rotation guy for Orlando.

Vlatko Cancar played for a few years in Denver, no one else him picked up, out of the league at 25.

Bryn Forbes played a little bit for Denver in 2022. Played for MN in 2023 and his numbers fell off a cliff. Then out of the league at 29.

Shaq Harrison played more games in his half season in Denver (17) then he has in his entire career since (3 years, 3 teams, 10 games played).

Basically, 90% of the guys had a two-year career or less after leaving Denver. The carry job Jokic had for two years was unreal. When people say "Denver has the best supporting cast in the league" I want to laugh. Gordon comes to Denver...all of a sudden, he's an elite role player and went from below average efficiency guy to well above, KCP goes to Denver and immediately becomes the most efficient he's ever been while playing better defense. We haven't seen Murray and Porter Jr. without Jokic, but I'm extremely confident it would not go well for them. Life is easy when you get to play with the best player in the world.

Vlatko Cancar is still on the Nuggets roster. He blew his knee out playing with Luka for Slovenia in the World Cup last summer.

[prejt]

Luka is the better player and that will be proven if/when they meet up in the playoffs, provided Luka is healthy, but he's better than Embiid. Much more consistent and performs in big games.

[AleksandarN]

OP, I can't believe ur actually doubling down on of the worst takes in RealGM history haha

fwiw, rs Murray is NOT a top 30 player, period but it'd be hard to argue he isn't a top 30 player in the playoffs, because he is. he's probably right around there tbh. the "closer" argument is absouletly ridicilous because a,) Jokic is a hell of a closer and he proved it over and over in both the rs and the playoffs and B.) Murray plays off Jokic and his immense gravity - put him on the Pistons and let him "close" see where that gets ya

Jokic is the defintion of being "more than the sum of his parts" (or stats), so much of what he does isn't captured in the boxscore, much more so than other superstars, even moreso than his gaudy all-around stats suggest, not to mention his numbers aren't capturing his leadership (on and off the court), his control of the game, directing traffic on both offense and defense. I mean some of it is captured by impact stats obviously but def not in raw stats

the "we've seen what he's like without Murray" is a ridicilous argument and disingenious at that - Jokic not only played that whole season without his #2, he also played without his #3 (MPJ). both happen to be max players, so there was a whole season of two max players sitting on the bench and Jokic carried Campazzo, Austin Rivers and Will Barton almost to 50 wins

the guys who were in the rotation that year (aside from AG) were basically out of the league the next season.
that's not the same as "playing without Murray" now, is it? lmfao

p.s, losing the first two games of this series with Murray going something like 3-18 from the field, isn't the same as "playing without Murray" either, it's playing with a huge net negative that is Murray (in those games), that's hardly the same thing

you doubling down on this stupidity is pure entertainment

He's a top 10 player in the playoffs.

.

He definitely hasn't been a top 10 player these playoffs. Even last game where I thought he played ok he only scored 19 points on 17 shots.

Actually kind of scary. Nuggets have gotten a very mediocre Murray, imagine he starts getting healthy

FIFY

[AleksandarN]

Luka is the better player and that will be proven if/when they meet up in the playoffs, provided Luka is healthy, but he's better than Embiid. Much more consistent and performs in big games.

How is Luka the better player than Jokic?

[jordanwilliams6]

I almost think he’s underrated, especially by some.

The impact he has on the floor and his teammates is unlike anything I’ve even seen before. It’s in GOAT territory.

I’d love for him to win 3-4 championships.