Who's the G.O.A.T. ?

[Lukeem]

Wilt lost to the nationals, Celtics and knicks in playoffs. And that was running into the Celtics I think 9 times.

Jordan lost to the bucks, Celtics, pistons and magic plus his two years of not making the playoffs. The way you can say wilt had the better team was because he was on it and the most dominant player ever.

The last part is not an opinion, it is a fact. Jordan didn’t win as much as Russell that’s a fact not an opinion.

Jordan never beat a team as good as the 67 Celtics... wilt could have won more and it would have looked better. Same goes for Jordan. Same goes for bill Russell. You look really bad when you love the field goal posts depending on what player you’re talking about.

I'm not moving any goal posts. MJ and Russell capitalized on their opportunities to win, hence why they're ahead. Wilt however was the one seed and lost. He had home court and lost. He switched teams and got HOF teammates and lost, then he did it again and lost. If anything you seem to be one moving the goal posts for Wilt. How can he be the most dominant player ever but it was never his fault when he lost while on a contender? He wasn't the unluckiest player ever. He had some underwhelming playoff series that contributed to losing.

All of what you said about wilt’s performance and capitalizing or not capitalizing also applies to Jordan.

Wilt however was able to lead his team past an all time great team

[PizzaSteve]

KAJ. dominance, longevity, innovation. Name of the game is points. If LBJ passes him in total pts., he takes the crown. Jordan has best peak, bit didnt sustain.

I personally feel that Kareem is top 3, and probably one of 4 with a strong GOAT argument (MJ, LBJ, Kareem, and Wilt), but total points while a GREAT accomplishment is not at all what makes him the GOAT. If Malone had not gotten injured in his final year, chances are he sticks around for atleast one more year, he'd probably have become the all-time leader (he finished roughly 1400pts behind Kareem). Despite Malone having come so close to Kareem, he's never come close to being in the argument for GOAT, and currently I'd say people have him around 15th overall. If you look at the top 6, which has Kobe and Dirk too, two guys who most wouldn't even put top 10, that puts 3 guys in the top 6 who aren't top 10 players. Longevity is really big, but peak tends to be valued a lot more in this argument, if not MJ wouldn't even be in the discussion.

I didnt say it was the only reason. His level of play right out of college, a clearly dominant player, elevated teams to championship level, fundamental team player, sustained all star level for an extremely long career. Overcame huge racism driven obstacles, modern players need not worry about. Ultra high game IQ. But i generally hate rank attempts across eras. Too many apples to oranges.

[JordansBulls]

.
WHAT ABOUT LARRY BOID??!!

He doesn't have as great a peak, prime, nor accolades as the others.

[JordansBulls]

Since 2020 Lebron lost in round 1 as the #1 favorite in 2021 https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html (Lakers 1st)

Then in 2022 as the #2 favorite missed play in https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html (Lakers 2nd)

And this year was in the 13th seed until a trade happened and then got swept 4-0 which was the third decade he got swept 4-0.

[RTG HD]

[LakersLegacy]

*260 playoff games.

lebron has now been the clear-cut best player in the finals 8 times and is still the best in the world in his 17th/18th season, east... west... don't matter, lebron is a one man dynasty.

The argument against $tat$ is a results approach where the stats are simply the style part that doesn’t matter as much. What matters is the max # of championship results

In which 6 is more than 4. And defending the title 4 times is more than defending the title 1 time

[Raps in 4]

I don't see how it isn't Jordan. He's up there with the best statistically and he has the most impressive playoff accomplishments of any player ever.

[One_and_Done]

The results here are worse than for the worst MVP thread.

[JordansBulls]

The results here are worse than for the worst MVP thread.

You just showed up all of a sudden or are you a previous poster?


There is also 60 million on Youtube



You don't even get that for president of the U.S.

[One_and_Done]

60 million bots can't be wrong.

This is one case where the majority is laughably wrong, and in time will become the minority.

[JordansBulls]

60 million bots can't be wrong.

This is one case where the majority is laughably wrong, and in time will become the minority.

So what are you saying about the people on this forum? viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2008047&start=500
600+ votes is a lot different than 32 votes. 60 million is a lot different than either.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29187444/michael-jordan-better-lebron-james-every-way-says-poll-nba-fans

[One_and_Done]

I'm saying with the passing of time, after Jordan retires and his haters remember him more fondly, the Jordan fans will start to die out. The average fan will look at Lebron's 44k points, and 13k assists and rebounds, and he will become the new lay persons GOAT.

[RTG HD]

[lakerz12]

I'm saying with the passing of time, after Jordan retires and his haters remember him more fondly, the Jordan fans will start to die out. The average fan will look at Lebron's 44k points, and 13k assists and rebounds, and he will become the new lay persons GOAT.

I didn’t realize that the purpose of NBA basketball was the accumulation of stats.

Do they give out a trophy for that?

Surely Russell Westbrook will also then be considered a top 10 all time great.

[CpttCanada]

I'm saying with the passing of time, after Jordan retires and his haters remember him more fondly, the Jordan fans will start to die out. The average fan will look at Lebron's 44k points, and 13k assists and rebounds, and he will become the new lay persons GOAT.

LeBrons chance to catch Jordan in popularity and praise was during his playing career and that never happened. People aren’t going to start loving LeBron after retires. In fact people like you are in the minority and are going to die out way before Jordan fans. Michael Jordan is basketball, LeBron failed to take that title away from him and will fade away for it.

[DonaldSanders]

I'm saying with the passing of time, after Jordan retires and his haters remember him more fondly, the Jordan fans will start to die out. The average fan will look at Lebron's 44k points, and 13k assists and rebounds, and he will become the new lay persons GOAT.

LeBrons chance to catch Jordan in popularity and praise was during his playing career and that never happened. People aren’t going to start loving LeBron after retires. In fact people like you are in the minority and are going to die out way before Jordan fans. Michael Jordan is basketball, LeBron failed to take that title away from him and will fade away for it.

Yup. It's much more likely that a new player, say a Wembenyama, ends up challenging MJ for the consensus GOAT.

[indiegrind]

MJ. And this is coming from a Lebron fan who rooted against MJ when he was playing.

[Yank3525]

I'm saying with the passing of time, after Jordan retires and his haters remember him more fondly, the Jordan fans will start to die out. The average fan will look at Lebron's 44k points, and 13k assists and rebounds, and he will become the new lay persons GOAT.

LeBrons chance to catch Jordan in popularity and praise was during his playing career and that never happened. People aren’t going to start loving LeBron after retires. In fact people like you are in the minority and are going to die out way before Jordan fans. Michael Jordan is basketball, LeBron failed to take that title away from him and will fade away for it.

A bit harsh, but correct.

The MJ vs LeBron dies the minute he retires. The media will move on to the next guy to compare to MJ.

[KrAzY3]

I'm saying with the passing of time, after Jordan retires and his haters remember him more fondly, the Jordan fans will start to die out. The average fan will look at Lebron's 44k points, and 13k assists and rebounds, and he will become the new lay persons GOAT.

LeBrons chance to catch Jordan in popularity and praise was during his playing career and that never happened. People aren’t going to start loving LeBron after retires. In fact people like you are in the minority and are going to die out way before Jordan fans. Michael Jordan is basketball, LeBron failed to take that title away from him and will fade away for it.

A bit harsh, but correct.

The MJ vs LeBron dies the minute he retires. The media will move on to the next guy to compare to MJ.

I don't think LeBron's chance is over, but he needs to do something to move the needle. Making it to the WCF was pretty nice actually, but getting swept took away any credit he was going to get. Never a good look to get swept in the playoffs (he's now "winning" in that regard 3-2 over Jordan).

Karl Malone put up a lot of stats late in his career too, he's third all time in scoring, no one seems to care (he's not even in this poll). If LeBron doesn't do anything truly remarkable for his remaining time, he's just accumulating empty stats. But, if he wins another FMVP or something? That would give people more to think about...

[rzzzzz]

In person, on the court, Wilt Chamberlain was the greatest athlete I laid eyes on. Only player to stop Russell, which he did once.
Russell was also stopped by a sprained ankle in the finals against St. Louis. Otherwise, he won 11 rings, 2 NCAAs and the Olys.
Jordan won 6 rings, an NCAA and an Oly. Though that Oly team he was on was ridiculous. He didn’t win a ring before or after Phil.
Kareem won 3 NCAAs with a great coach and 6 rings with incredible team mates.
Bob Horry won 7 with 3 teams and was clutch as hell, but no one calls him GOAT.

Don’t know why basketball fans are so hung up on GOAT. Something unknowable since you can’t match up different eras and rules.