NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 4: MVP Thread's Revenge)

[Exp0sed]

Any argument you have with Kawhi falls off when you look at Giannis; same defensive impact with better numbers with less help. Giannis is third behind SGA and Jokic. I can't see the Kawhi for MVP case

I wrote a day or two ago that I have Kawhi 4th behind Giannis rn

as for the Kawhi for MVP there isn't a case...yet. as in to actually win MVP, he still might tho..the Euro hate is real and SGA might be a year too early in terms of recognition etc, not to mention a Kawhi comeback story carrying the Clippers to the 1st seed well, it's a nice story that's for sure

[_NoMas]

I no longer qualify PG13 and Harden as superstars, the gap between this PG13 and Jalen Williams isn't that great

how do u figure that?
like I said, Harden was a top 15-20 last season and he's a top 20 player this sesaon as well. Williams is underrated in his own right, I agree he may be closer to that range then most ppl realize

PG13 is only 33, he's averaging 22.6\5.4\3.6 in just 33.9 mpg on 50\40\90 (!)

when he was 28 in his last OKC season, in his prime - he had more usage, which led to more shots (and thus points) and assists but he's shooting better from every range this season than he did in that MVP caliber season

his defense was a little better than, he has slipped (a bit) on that end but maybe he's just conserving energy and focus for the playoffs, he's no spring chicken after all and that would be prudent

for comparison, KL is averaging: 24.4\6.4\5.2 playing the same 34 mpg on 51\40\88
a bit better than PG13 but def very close and comparable. they even have basically the same To's (2\2.1) and STL (1.7\1.6)

not saying that raw stats are everything but they have basically been 1A\1B this season

idk about "superstar" but Harden and PG13 are both still clearly better than anyone on the Nuggets roster and have a good argument to being better than Chet and Willams as well

Murray balled out in the playoffs, a-la Kyrie in his best days but rs season Murray, i'm not sure that player is even top 40-50, not to mention he missed quite a few games. AG and MPJ aren't top 40 players either..

Clippers have two players besides KL who are most def let's say..top 25-30 players at the very least? that's stacked..and it hurts his case for sure

The reason those shooting splits between Kawhi and PG look close is because you made them up. Actual stats for the season:

PG: 22.6 points on 46/41/91
Kawhi: 24.4 points on 53/46/89

That also doesn’t take into account that Kawhi is getting double and triple teamed on a nightly basis…

[Exp0sed]

I no longer qualify PG13 and Harden as superstars, the gap between this PG13 and Jalen Williams isn't that great

how do u figure that?
like I said, Harden was a top 15-20 last season and he's a top 20 player this sesaon as well. Williams is underrated in his own right, I agree he may be closer to that range then most ppl realize

PG13 is only 33, he's averaging 22.6\5.4\3.6 in just 33.9 mpg on 50\40\90 (!)

when he was 28 in his last OKC season, in his prime - he had more usage, which led to more shots (and thus points) and assists but he's shooting better from every range this season than he did in that MVP caliber season

his defense was a little better than, he has slipped (a bit) on that end but maybe he's just conserving energy and focus for the playoffs, he's no spring chicken after all and that would be prudent

for comparison, KL is averaging: 24.4\6.4\5.2 playing the same 34 mpg on 51\40\88
a bit better than PG13 but def very close and comparable. they even have basically the same To's (2\2.1) and STL (1.7\1.6)

not saying that raw stats are everything but they have basically been 1A\1B this season

idk about "superstar" but Harden and PG13 are both still clearly better than anyone on the Nuggets roster and have a good argument to being better than Chet and Willams as well

Murray balled out in the playoffs, a-la Kyrie in his best days but rs season Murray, i'm not sure that player is even top 40-50, not to mention he missed quite a few games. AG and MPJ aren't top 40 players either..

Clippers have two players besides KL who are most def let's say..top 25-30 players at the very least? that's stacked..and it hurts his case for sure

The reason those shooting splits between Kawhi and PG look close is because you made them up. Actual stats for the season:

PG: 22.6 points on 46/41/91
Kawhi: 24.4 points on 53/46/89

That also doesn’t take into account that Kawhi is getting double and triple teamed on a nightly basis…

bro relax..I didn't make anything up, I just looked at PG13's 2p% instead of overall FG%, just because i did it in a haste
believe me, I think, know and see that KL is clearly better than PG13 and has been this season as well. i'm aware of Kawhi getting alot more defensive attention

you could say the same about Tatum and Brown
points is the gap isn't THAT big between the two (which hurts Kawhi's MVP case whether u think so or not) and the second point was that this Clipper team is stacked even when comparing it to teams with other MVP candidates

they have the best #2 AND the best #3 in Harden, at least among teams with a viable MVP candidate atm

[mkot]

I think Jokić will take his foot off the gas towards the end of the season regardless of seeding.

SGA might win the trophy if OKC keeps standing at #1 in the West, as I correctly predicted before the season

What makes you think this? Jokic has to play like an MVP for Denver to have any chance. This is why he's basically the MVP every year. Denver is lost without him.

They are the 4th seed right now. They can't afford to coast. Not like Jokic would anyway. He never misses games and he never "takes his foot off the gas".

I did not say Jokić or the team will coast, but they certainly will take a few games off here and there to rest and get ready for the playoffs. HCA is important for them, but I don't think they need to go all out for it especially when/if it becomes clear that it's out of reach towards the end.

[bwgood77]

I've been thinking Kawhi should firmly be in the MVP conversation as well....I made a post earlier on the Phx board saying...

On another note, Kawhi has been a monster this year. I think he should firmly be in the MVP conversation.

He is averaging 24.4/6.3/3.7 which obviously isn't as good as the top tier guys for counting stats (Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, Luka, etc) but he has been a crazy good defender and is near the league leader in steals at 1.7 a game.

But most impressively is his 3pt%, at 45.7% and over a 64% TS%. Splits of 53.3/45.7/89.2. So very close to the 50/40/90 group....not sure there is a 50/45/90 group.

I think he's probably the best player on the best team. Since the Clips went 0-5 as they learned to play with Harden, I'm fairly certain they have the best record..maybe by quite a bit.

They are the team I really don't want Phx to meet in the playoffs again. Denver of course too. One of those matchups in the first round would be crazy. Phx may drop a bit in the standings too because their schedule to end the season after the AS game is brutal. They do play Houston 3x early who I thought was tougher earlier in the year, but they also are likely to make a trade or two to improve before the deadline.

[dygaction]

I've been thinking Kawhi should firmly be in the MVP conversation as well....I made a post earlier on the Phx board saying...

On another note, Kawhi has been a monster this year. I think he should firmly be in the MVP conversation.

He is averaging 24.4/6.3/3.7 which obviously isn't as good as the top tier guys for counting stats (Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, Luka, etc) but he has been a crazy good defender and is near the league leader in steals at 1.7 a game.

But most impressively is his 3pt%, at 45.7% and over a 64% TS%. Splits of 53.3/45.7/89.2. So very close to the 50/40/90 group....not sure there is a 50/45/90 group.

I think he's probably the best player on the best team. Since the Clips went 0-5 as they learned to play with Harden, I'm fairly certain they have the best record..maybe by quite a bit.

They are the team I really don't want Phx to meet in the playoffs again. Denver of course too. One of those matchups in the first round would be crazy. Phx may drop a bit in the standings too because their schedule to end the season after the AS game is brutal. They do play Houston 3x early who I thought was tougher earlier in the year, but they also are likely to make a trade or two to improve before the deadline.

The clippers is a cheat code with three top 20 level players in a 30 team league. With reduced scoring load and Harden orchestra the show, Kawhi's gets better shooting percentage and gives better defense. I think they need at least 5 games over the 2nd best for Kawhi to have a strong case.

[jokeboy86]

Read on Twitter

?s=46

Woj driving the Kawhi MVP train

Again not surprising because since Embiid got hurt Jokic winning the MVP again is the most boring storyline for the media so its more them hoping that either Kawhi or SGA continue to make it interesting and that's by their teams finishing better than Denver in the standings. And if somehow their teams start to falter don't be surprised if they reintroduce Tatum again because they'll cite the "best player on league's best team" argument. The only time the talking heads would be willing to universally agree that Jokic should win a 3rd MVP is if he wins the title again this year because then going into next year that would end any discussion that he's the best player in the league.

I will sing this everyday till the cows come home. Only 8 guys have won 3 MVPs. Look at the list and ask yourself do you really think they want to add Joker to that list. Plus he's not even 30

[iggymcfrack]

Read on Twitter

?s=46

Woj driving the Kawhi MVP train

Again not surprising because since Embiid got hurt Jokic winning the MVP again is the most boring storyline for the media so its more them hoping that either Kawhi or SGA continue to make it interesting and that's by their teams finishing better than Denver in the standings. And if somehow their teams start to falter don't be surprised if they reintroduce Tatum again because they'll cite the "best player on league's best team" argument. The only time the talking heads would be willing to universally agree that Jokic should win a 3rd MVP is if he wins the title again this year because then going into next year that would end any discussion that he's the best player in the league.

I will sing this everyday till the cows come home. Only 8 guys have won 3 MVPs. Look at the list and ask yourself do you really think they want to add Joker to that list. Plus he's not even 30

You really think that people have a problem putting Jokić on a list with Moses, Larry, and Magic after last year? I feel like about half of people would have Joker ahead of Moses all-time already.

[Johnny Firpo]

Read on Twitter

?s=46

Woj driving the Kawhi MVP train

Again not surprising because since Embiid got hurt Jokic winning the MVP again is the most boring storyline for the media so its more them hoping that either Kawhi or SGA continue to make it interesting and that's by their teams finishing better than Denver in the standings. And if somehow their teams start to falter don't be surprised if they reintroduce Tatum again because they'll cite the "best player on league's best team" argument. The only time the talking heads would be willing to universally agree that Jokic should win a 3rd MVP is if he wins the title again this year because then going into next year that would end any discussion that he's the best player in the league.

I will sing this everyday till the cows come home. Only 8 guys have won 3 MVPs. Look at the list and ask yourself do you really think they want to add Joker to that list. Plus he's not even 30

You really think that people have a problem putting Jokić on a list with Moses, Larry, and Magic after last year? I feel like about half of people would have Joker ahead of Moses all-time already.

I feel you guys are talking about two different things. It's different being crowned by the media and having been put on an all-time list.

[Wolfgang630]

It must be nice playing on a team stacked with hall of famers…while other guys can’t have a consistent #2, let alone playing with 3 hall of famers….

[GeorgeSears]

The sports media is really pushing this "Kawhi for MVP" narrative hard. Look, he's having a nice year, but let's not lower the standards.

[Blacksheep25]

The sports media is really pushing this "Kawhi for MVP" narrative hard. Look, he's having a nice year, but let's not lower the standards.

Books aren’t buying it. He’s +5000 on my app. Jokic -159, SGA +200, Giannis and Luka at 4/1 and 5/1. Leonard is next, but 50/1.

If anyone is inclined to think the talking heads can sway it that much, worth a winger. I don’t see it.

[bwgood77]

At this point, I don't think Kawhi has a chance. Personally, at this point, I'd definitely have him top 3 though, and I would have to think long and hard about the order. (Embiid only not in it due to injury).

Kawhi is hands down the best defender. Giannis is great as is Shai. The splits are huge to me...I don't know anyone has shot like that who has been as good as defender as him, and he's always been clutch. I would without a doubt take him over anyone in the NBA in the playoffs, since he is one of a very few who raises their level of play in the playoffs. Though I know that is not relevant in MVP discussions (though maybe it should be).

I would probably have Jokic slightly ahead of Kawhi and Kawhi slightly ahead of SGA with Giannis in 4th.

[bwgood77]

The sports media is really pushing this "Kawhi for MVP" narrative hard. Look, he's having a nice year, but let's not lower the standards.

Books aren’t buying it. He’s +5000 on my app. Jokic -159, SGA +200, Giannis and Luka at 4/1 and 5/1. Leonard is next, but 50/1.

If anyone is inclined to think the talking heads can sway it that much, worth a winger. I don’t see it.

If those are the odds, that's a hell of a bet. He doesn't have a great chance, given the absurd stats of Jokic..and also Giannis and SGA, but they could end up with the best record which would give him a better chance.

Regardless, I think both of those odds are way out of whack for the seasons and impact they have had.

[Blacksheep25]

The sports media is really pushing this "Kawhi for MVP" narrative hard. Look, he's having a nice year, but let's not lower the standards.

Books aren’t buying it. He’s +5000 on my app. Jokic -159, SGA +200, Giannis and Luka at 4/1 and 5/1. Leonard is next, but 50/1.

If anyone is inclined to think the talking heads can sway it that much, worth a winger. I don’t see it.

If those are the odds, that's a hell of a bet. He doesn't have a great chance, given the absurd stats of Jokic..and also Giannis and SGA, but they could end up with the best record which would give him a better chance.

Regardless, I think both of those odds are way out of whack for the seasons and impact they have had.

Full board. I looked at them yesterday and screwed up as far as Luka and Giannis. They’re 8/1 and 10/1

I don’t follow MVP talk that close. You think 50/1 on Kawhi worth a sweat?


Jokić, Nikola
-159

Gilgeous-Alexander, Shai
+200

Antetokounmpo, Giannis
+800

Dončić, Luka
+1000

Leonard, Kawhi
+5000

Brunson, Jalen
+6000

Tatum, Jayson
+8000

Booker, Devin
+25000

Mitchell, Donovan
+25000

Durant, Kevin
+25000

Haliburton, Tyrese
+50000

Edwards, Anthony
+50000

Sabonis, Domantas
+50000

Fox, De'Aaron
+50000

Curry, Stephen
+50000

Davis, Anthony
+50000

James, LeBron
+50000

[bwgood77]

Books aren’t buying it. He’s +5000 on my app. Jokic -159, SGA +200, Giannis and Luka at 4/1 and 5/1. Leonard is next, but 50/1.

If anyone is inclined to think the talking heads can sway it that much, worth a winger. I don’t see it.

If those are the odds, that's a hell of a bet. He doesn't have a great chance, given the absurd stats of Jokic..and also Giannis and SGA, but they could end up with the best record which would give him a better chance.

Regardless, I think both of those odds are way out of whack for the seasons and impact they have had.

Full board. I looked at them yesterday and screwed up as far as Luka and Giannis. They’re 8/1 and 10/1

I don’t follow MVP talk that close. You think 50/1 on Kawhi worth a sweat?


Jokić, Nikola
-159

Gilgeous-Alexander, Shai
+200

Antetokounmpo, Giannis
+800

Dončić, Luka
+1000

Leonard, Kawhi
+5000

Brunson, Jalen
+6000

Tatum, Jayson
+8000

Booker, Devin
+25000

Mitchell, Donovan
+25000

Durant, Kevin
+25000

Haliburton, Tyrese
+50000

Edwards, Anthony
+50000

Sabonis, Domantas
+50000

Fox, De'Aaron
+50000

Curry, Stephen
+50000

Davis, Anthony
+50000

James, LeBron
+50000

Worth a sweat? Maybe if you put $100 but the payout would be $5K. Even just $10 is a $500 payout. That's definitely worth a shot. The others don't have much of a payout..the high ones and it's risky with such a small payout because they are going against the field.

And with Jokic, you have to bet $159 just to get paid $100.

If the Clips somehow end up 3 or 4 games ahead of anyone else, Kawhi may have a reasonable shot. The defense cannot be understated. Plus, he may not have the rebounds or assists of others, but he is solid there and doesn't need it as much given the team he is on. Is Shai that much more deserving if the Clips end up 5 games ahead of them?

[jokeboy86]

Read on Twitter

?s=46

Woj driving the Kawhi MVP train

Again not surprising because since Embiid got hurt Jokic winning the MVP again is the most boring storyline for the media so its more them hoping that either Kawhi or SGA continue to make it interesting and that's by their teams finishing better than Denver in the standings. And if somehow their teams start to falter don't be surprised if they reintroduce Tatum again because they'll cite the "best player on league's best team" argument. The only time the talking heads would be willing to universally agree that Jokic should win a 3rd MVP is if he wins the title again this year because then going into next year that would end any discussion that he's the best player in the league.

I will sing this everyday till the cows come home. Only 8 guys have won 3 MVPs. Look at the list and ask yourself do you really think they want to add Joker to that list. Plus he's not even 30

You really think that people have a problem putting Jokić on a list with Moses, Larry, and Magic after last year? I feel like about half of people would have Joker ahead of Moses all-time already.

Yes because Magic and Bird are automatic top 10 and Moses is borderline top 15 depending who you ask and how old they are. Also putting Jokic in the same sentence as Bird/Magic also would mean(depending who and how old) would mean he would do something that these players have not:

Shaq
Kobe
KG
KD
Steph

These guys were and are immensely more popular than Jokic but the main reason people would have a problem is because Jokic doesnt have the look/image or game that people(media) want their greatest players since Magic/Bird/Jordan to have. Duncan didnt either but 5 rings and 2 MVPs make him hard to ignore.

But besides look/image you’re right that no one should have a problem ranking Jokic with those greats. If you look back at ESPN and The Athletic’s ranking of the 75 greatest players, at minimum he’s already a top 20 player of all time and this season isnt even over yet.

[Doctor MJ]

I will sing this everyday till the cows come home. Only 8 guys have won 3 MVPs. Look at the list and ask yourself do you really think they want to add Joker to that list. Plus he's not even 30

You really think that people have a problem putting Jokić on a list with Moses, Larry, and Magic after last year? I feel like about half of people would have Joker ahead of Moses all-time already.[/quote]

Yeah so just chiming in:

I think voters were reluctant to give Jokic a 3rd MVP while they still thought of him as someone who might get classified as a "regular season wonder", but after his dominant performance leading his team to the chip I don't think there's any such reluctance. Similarly, I think MVP voters would have been happy to give Giannis a 3rd MVP in any season after he won his championship.

In general, a lot of what gets lumped into "voter fatigue" is just players not chasing regular season accolades once they reach a point where their legacy can only be improved through playoff performance.

Now, I do think there is a general truth that voters are slightly more likely to favor the guy who has gotten less love previously, and this could favor SGA slightly, but I don't think we're going to see anything like last year where voters abandoned Jokic once major pressure got applied by Embiid-related forces.

Last, it should be acknowledge that Jokic and the Nuggets coasting at the end of the year was part of the story last year, and that could happen again this year whereas I don't see SGA and the Thunder doing this. This relates to why I'd see Shai as a slight favorite right now over Jokic.

[Doctor MJ]

At this point, I don't think Kawhi has a chance. Personally, at this point, I'd definitely have him top 3 though, and I would have to think long and hard about the order. (Embiid only not in it due to injury).

Kawhi is hands down the best defender. Giannis is great as is Shai. The splits are huge to me...I don't know anyone has shot like that who has been as good as defender as him, and he's always been clutch. I would without a doubt take him over anyone in the NBA in the playoffs, since he is one of a very few who raises their level of play in the playoffs. Though I know that is not relevant in MVP discussions (though maybe it should be).

I would probably have Jokic slightly ahead of Kawhi and Kawhi slightly ahead of SGA with Giannis in 4th.

I think everyone is pretty far behind Shai & Jokic right now, but Kawhi is the guy who seems to have the best chance to jump into the top tier based on how the season is going for his team.

I do think there will be a pull to reward Kawhi with an MVP to match his stature, but I will also say that I think that pull will disappear in a debate with Jokic because Jokic is responsible for that humiliating upset of the Clippers in '19-20 where they were pre-season favorites and massive favorites in that playoff series.

On the other hand, if it ends up between Shai & Kawhi, I could see voters being quicker to side with Kawhi by a principle similar to Kobe v Paul in 2008 - the whole "X should get an MVP and this might be his last chance, and Y is young anyway". Can't help but note that this now forever plays a role in why Chris Paul isn't an NBA MVP, because he never had a season as good again, but still, I think people still tend to think in these terms.

[Chokic]

Read on Twitter

?s=46

Woj driving the Kawhi MVP train

Again not surprising because since Embiid got hurt Jokic winning the MVP again is the most boring storyline for the media so its more them hoping that either Kawhi or SGA continue to make it interesting and that's by their teams finishing better than Denver in the standings. And if somehow their teams start to falter don't be surprised if they reintroduce Tatum again because they'll cite the "best player on league's best team" argument. The only time the talking heads would be willing to universally agree that Jokic should win a 3rd MVP is if he wins the title again this year because then going into next year that would end any discussion that he's the best player in the league.

I will sing this everyday till the cows come home. Only 8 guys have won 3 MVPs. Look at the list and ask yourself do you really think they want to add Joker to that list. Plus he's not even 30

Joker as good as he is lucked out in unsual circumstances w/ the 1st mvp and if he does win this one 3rd mvp due to Embiids injuries. It really should be tied 2-2 embiid and jokic.