Which of these recent players will ultimately rank above Kobe?

[Hair Jordan]

Malachi Flynn.

[CodeBreaker]

Don't know how more people don't vote Kawhi. Yes his career will go down as very marred by injuries but when he is healthy he has a case for one of the best 2-way players ever. His scoring efficiency is waaay better than Kobe's (he's shooting 53/42/89 this year) and he is at least as clutch. Plus I'd say there aren't any better defenders than him on that list, though you could make a case for Giannis or KG.

Fore sure Kobe had far more longevity and I get that for a lot of people that is a defining factor, but it's not like Kawhi doesn't have a solid resume despite his injuries, with 2 FMVPs and 2 DPOYs. Personally I'd take a healthy Kawhi over Kobe. Am I the only one?

You're not alone. Give me peak Kawhi over peak Kobe.

[CobraCommander]

Dudes without rings need not apply. Min of entry will be 2 chips to be in the discussion- 3 for it to be serious

Rings are a team achievement.

Basketball is a team game

Notice no one talking about Tmac and Nique and Ai and Barkley - all of whom probably would be one of the best players of any era - what do they have in common
-

Yep no rings - no rings no chance of passing Kobe in a team sport -

No one cares about individual play in a team sport - you guys don’t get the point of basketball-

Clue - it’s not to get buckets, or dibble fancy or mean mug or get contracts -

It’s to win championships-

Jordan without chips ain’t the goat -

[SweaterBae]

There are a lot of better players on that list, not any better careers.

[theforumblue]

would kobe even be better than jalen brunson on the knicks? would he even be top 20? would he be able to stomach watching all his teammates launch 3s that "rightfully" should go to him? you know the answer, and that means almost all current #1 on the teams rank above kobe all time.

[FarBeyondDriven]

Luka? Is this a joke? Dude has been in the league for six seasons and has won a whopping 12 playoff games lmao. You know who else was drafted the same year as Luka and has as many playoff wins? Trae. Bridges too and he's won 21 playoff games and went to a Finals. Tatum was drafted the year before and has won 52 playoff games, been to the Finals as well and he's not on this list but Luka is?!! I'll never understand the Luka obsession. He's empty stats in a joke league with meaningless offensive numbers.

[One_and_Done]

Luka? Is this a joke? Dude has been in the league for six seasons and has won a whopping 12 playoff games lmao. You know who else was drafted the same year as Luka and has as many playoff wins? Trae. Bridges too and he's won 21 playoff games and went to a Finals. Tatum was drafted the year before and has won 52 playoff games, been to the Finals as well and he's not on this list but Luka is?!! I'll never understand the Luka obsession. He's empty stats in a joke league with meaningless offensive numbers.

People are voting based on the end of their careers. Did you read the OP?

[DCasey91]

1. Jokic (marginal impact defender but probably offensive GOAT)
2. Giannis (poor distance shooter)
3. Luka (no defensive impact)
4. KG (not an elite scorer)
5. KD (weak leader; never won a title as the real #1 option)
6. Dirk (doesn't run the offense, no defensive impact)
7. Kobe (career basically over at age 34)
8. Kawhi (frequently injured)
9. SGA (unproven in playoffs)
10. Embiid (durability especially long-term; playoff choker?)

Dirk doesn’t run the offence? Smoking something

Dirk is mad underrated now. I’m just going to say it it’s definitely double standard agenda going on

[rand]

1. Jokic (marginal impact defender but probably offensive GOAT)
2. Giannis (poor distance shooter)
3. Luka (no defensive impact)
4. KG (not an elite scorer)
5. KD (weak leader; never won a title as the real #1 option)
6. Dirk (doesn't run the offense, no defensive impact)
7. Kobe (career basically over at age 34)
8. Kawhi (frequently injured)
9. SGA (unproven in playoffs)
10. Embiid (durability especially long-term; playoff choker?)

Dirk doesn’t run the offence? Smoking something

Dirk is mad underrated now. I’m just going to say it it’s definitely double standard agenda going on

Of course he didn't. The offense ran through Dirk but Dirk did not run the offense. Someone else brought the ball up, someone else typically initiated the half-court offense and someone else made a pass to Dirk in his chosen set-up spots. That's why Dirk averaged the least assists of any player on this list and had the largest percentage of his own FGs assisted. If the percentage of the time each player had the ball was recorded, Dirk would undoubtedly rank 10th on this list in that measure by a clear margin.

And I agree that Dirk is generally underrated but I ranked him above Kobe here which very few others in this thread did. Which among the players I ranked ahead of Dirk would you take him over?

[iggymcfrack]

Dudes without rings need not apply. Min of entry will be 2 chips to be in the discussion- 3 for it to be serious

Rings are a team achievement.

Basketball is a team game

Notice no one talking about Tmac and Nique and Ai and Barkley - all of whom probably would be one of the best players of any era - what do they have in common
-

Yep no rings - no rings no chance of passing Kobe in a team sport -

No one cares about individual play in a team sport - you guys don’t get the point of basketball-

Clue - it’s not to get buckets, or dibble fancy or mean mug or get contracts -

It’s to win championships-

Jordan without chips ain’t the goat -

T-Mac, AI, Dominique, and Barkley? That they were never the best player in the league? Oh wait that’s Kobe too. That they didn’t play defense? Oh ****, still Kobe. Is it that they don’t rank in the top 100 in career RAPM? Wait ****, that’s ANOTHER thing they have in common with Kobe! Yeah, there’s a lot of reasons none of these players are top 20 guys all-time.

I don’t care about the rings thing so much though. Chris Paul, John Stockton, and Karl Malone all would be in my top 20 all-time even without rings.

[One_and_Done]

If Kobe had been drafted by Charlotte he'd have zero rings too.

[naabzor]

Maybe Jokic if he wins more and continue to dominate and that's about it.

[Bloodbather]

I wouldn't bet on anyone here except for Jokić. Giannis is the closest. Dončić is a maybe.

[dhsilv2]

Is this serious ?

So, basically players with inflated stats and little ( or zero ) championship pedigree can beat one of the top all time players , who was near MJ in 2010 ?

Only Jokic and Giannis have chance - Kobe has 5 rings....these guys playing in the juice ball era of no defense - If you don’t get 4-5 rings you not approaching a guy who is called the mamba

Because if you're called mamba you're outside the top 10,000 just for the stupid self given name?

[dhsilv2]

Dudes without rings need not apply. Min of entry will be 2 chips to be in the discussion- 3 for it to be serious

Rings are a team achievement.

Basketball is a team game

Notice no one talking about Tmac and Nique and Ai and Barkley - all of whom probably would be one of the best players of any era - what do they have in common
-

Yep no rings - no rings no chance of passing Kobe in a team sport -

No one cares about individual play in a team sport - you guys don’t get the point of basketball-

Clue - it’s not to get buckets, or dibble fancy or mean mug or get contracts -

It’s to win championships-

Jordan without chips ain’t the goat -

Nique and AI wouldn't be one of the best players in any era, including their own. Both are massively overrated players. Tmac had one legit all time great season, but injuries limited him. Chuck gets plenty of love...he's an all time great and gets talked about and ranked fairly for what he did. None of these guys become better with a ring.

The only players who get over the top love for their rings are the 70's knick players (outside of Walt) and for some reason Zeke, who isn't a top 50 player, but people always try and move him up the ranks.

[dhsilv2]

Rings are a team achievement.

Basketball is a team game

Notice no one talking about Tmac and Nique and Ai and Barkley - all of whom probably would be one of the best players of any era - what do they have in common
-

Yep no rings - no rings no chance of passing Kobe in a team sport -

No one cares about individual play in a team sport - you guys don’t get the point of basketball-

Clue - it’s not to get buckets, or dibble fancy or mean mug or get contracts -

It’s to win championships-

Jordan without chips ain’t the goat -

T-Mac, AI, Dominique, and Barkley? That they were never the best player in the league? Oh wait that’s Kobe too. That they didn’t play defense? Oh ****, still Kobe. Is it that they don’t rank in the top 100 in career RAPM? Wait ****, that’s ANOTHER thing they have in common with Kobe! Yeah, there’s a lot of reasons none of these players are top 20 guys all-time.

I don’t care about the rings thing so much though. Chris Paul, John Stockton, and Karl Malone all would be in my top 20 all-time even without rings.

We don't have RAPM data for nique or chuck...at least not meaningful (forget what year nique retired).

[CobraCommander]

Rings are a team achievement.

Basketball is a team game

Notice no one talking about Tmac and Nique and Ai and Barkley - all of whom probably would be one of the best players of any era - what do they have in common
-

Yep no rings - no rings no chance of passing Kobe in a team sport -

No one cares about individual play in a team sport - you guys don’t get the point of basketball-

Clue - it’s not to get buckets, or dibble fancy or mean mug or get contracts -

It’s to win championships-

Jordan without chips ain’t the goat -

Nique and AI wouldn't be one of the best players in any era, including their own. Both are massively overrated players. Tmac had one legit all time great season, but injuries limited him. Chuck gets plenty of love...he's an all time great and gets talked about and ranked fairly for what he did. None of these guys become better with a ring.

The only players who get over the top love for their rings are the 70's knick players (outside of Walt) and for some reason Zeke, who isn't a top 50 player, but people always try and move him up the ranks.

I disagree- rings matter to these guys more than individual accolades- they say it alllllll the time.

To be an all time above Kobe you need both.

No one respects the scoring in the league right now - the nba is fun to watch but our boy had 73 and no one cares outside of tight nba circles as evidence by the fact that Caitlin vs Reese 2 got bigger numbers than any nba game in the last few years MINUS game 5 last year. Consider that for a moment - scoring being at a all time high doesn’t impress anyone because people used to have to score against LEGAL hand checking and touching was allowed...so you had to be physical to score...now you can’t do anything for defense so...all this movement = better scoring but not better regarded players. If you just look at numbers it’s gonna look like the best players ever came in the last 10 years - and we all know that’s crazy.

Hardens best years better than damn near anyone’s in history - does that really make sense?

[CobraCommander]

Rings are a team achievement.

Basketball is a team game

Notice no one talking about Tmac and Nique and Ai and Barkley - all of whom probably would be one of the best players of any era - what do they have in common
-

Yep no rings - no rings no chance of passing Kobe in a team sport -

No one cares about individual play in a team sport - you guys don’t get the point of basketball-

Clue - it’s not to get buckets, or dibble fancy or mean mug or get contracts -

It’s to win championships-

Jordan without chips ain’t the goat -

T-Mac, AI, Dominique, and Barkley? That they were never the best player in the league? Oh wait that’s Kobe too. That they didn’t play defense? Oh ****, still Kobe. Is it that they don’t rank in the top 100 in career RAPM? Wait ****, that’s ANOTHER thing they have in common with Kobe! Yeah, there’s a lot of reasons none of these players are top 20 guys all-time.

I don’t care about the rings thing so much though. Chris Paul, John Stockton, and Karl Malone all would be in my top 20 all-time even without rings.

Post a list with anyone above Kobe with NO rings?

Post a list with anyone above Kobe with 1 ring ?

[CobraCommander]

1. Jokic (marginal impact defender but probably offensive GOAT)
2. Giannis (poor distance shooter)
3. Luka (no defensive impact)
4. KG (not an elite scorer)
5. KD (weak leader; never won a title as the real #1 option)
6. Dirk (doesn't run the offense, no defensive impact)
7. Kobe (career basically over at age 34)
8. Kawhi (frequently injured)
9. SGA (unproven in playoffs)
10. Embiid (durability especially long-term; playoff choker?)

Dirk doesn’t run the offence? Smoking something

Dirk is mad underrated now. I’m just going to say it it’s definitely double standard agenda going on

Show me the offense Dirk doesn’t run to perfection -

Dirk beat prime Lebron, bosh and Wade - leading a team effort...goat like tendencies that year and that series

[dhsilv2]

Basketball is a team game

Notice no one talking about Tmac and Nique and Ai and Barkley - all of whom probably would be one of the best players of any era - what do they have in common
-

Yep no rings - no rings no chance of passing Kobe in a team sport -

No one cares about individual play in a team sport - you guys don’t get the point of basketball-

Clue - it’s not to get buckets, or dibble fancy or mean mug or get contracts -

It’s to win championships-

Jordan without chips ain’t the goat -

Nique and AI wouldn't be one of the best players in any era, including their own. Both are massively overrated players. Tmac had one legit all time great season, but injuries limited him. Chuck gets plenty of love...he's an all time great and gets talked about and ranked fairly for what he did. None of these guys become better with a ring.

The only players who get over the top love for their rings are the 70's knick players (outside of Walt) and for some reason Zeke, who isn't a top 50 player, but people always try and move him up the ranks.

I disagree- rings matter to these guys more than individual accolades- they say it alllllll the time.

To be an all time above Kobe you need both.

No one respects the scoring in the league right now - the nba is fun to watch but our boy had 73 and no one cares outside of tight nba circles as evidence by the fact that Caitlin vs Reese 2 got bigger numbers than any nba game in the last few years MINUS game 5 last year. Consider that for a moment - scoring being at a all time high doesn’t impress anyone because people used to have to score against LEGAL hand checking and touching was allowed...so you had to be physical to score...now you can’t do anything for defense so...all this movement = better scoring but not better regarded players. If you just look at numbers it’s gonna look like the best players ever came in the last 10 years - and we all know that’s crazy.

Hardens best years better than damn near anyone’s in history - does that really make sense?

Well I don't disagree that the players care about winning titles, as they should. It makes their career less successful. It doesn't make their place lessor. Huge difference here.

But god where to start.

1. This isn't the highest scoring season in NBA history. Last year was the 9th highest in nba history and this is currently the 10th highest.
2. Until all of Wilt's scoring stops getting brought up, I'm not buying that people are going to dismiss scoring.
3. Hand checking was banned after the 78 season. Yes I know there were further clarifications and adjustments in 1995 and again in 2004. But actual hand checking was banned before MJ, Magic, or Bird got into the league. And yes, scoring did go up nearly 3 points a game when they banned it! Up to 110 in 1979 (a whole 4 points less than we're scoring today).
4. I don't really see the point of bringing up Harden. I mean David Robinson has some seasons better than Harden's and nobody freaks out over that and 09 Wade for example is way way up too and I think we all would agree Harden was the better offensive player. Not better overall player, as I'm sure many value Wade's defense.
5. Just to play more on the stats, BPM only goes back to 74. In the top 50 we see Jordan, Kareem, Bird, Magic, CP3, KG, Tmac, Wade, Lebron (2009 was his best year, 15 years ago, not last 10), Dr J, Robinson, Shaq, Charles Barley...sure you also see Embiid, Luka, Jokic, KD, Giannis, Harden, Curry, Westbrook, Leonard, and ok maybe weirdly AD. But other than Leonard and AD the rest of those modern guys all have MVP's (or Luka who clearly will eventually be an MVP). Seems like the stats people are actually looking at and using are listing the right players. Since 1974 that seems like a pretty damn good list of the best players. The only name I think people are going to have issue with is Westbrook being there and Kobe not...but we've always known Kobe's peak wasn't all time (and that's why we're never going to stop seeing people ask these questions, because kobe's stats don't match in terms of peaks how he's ranked).

So yeah, I'm not understanding a lot of complaining. People here are adamant that in the 80's teams played defense when you had a league average scoring of 110.8 in Jordan's rookie year. But now there is no defense when the league is averaging 114.7? Seriously 3.9 points a game is the difference in no defense and old school tough defense?

The lowest scoring period in NBA history, outside of the 40's and 50's btw came after the league banned hand checking in 1978 and then further restricted it in 1995. So this hand checking stuff is simply put BS. Despite all the work to get rid of it, scoring would spike up a bit and then teams just figured out better ways to play defense around it.

Mean Wilt and MJ's scoring record are fine because umm...wilt played in a higher scoring league and MJ came into the league scoring 3.9 less points per game so...that was great defense. But now we score 3.9 more points per game...so it's bad defense?