Jokic is the best player since Jordan

[Infinite Llamas]

He needs to tie LeBron in rings first for me to even entertain that conversation

Cool, so who are the two HOF players to help Jokic win like Lebron had in Miami?

[Infinite Llamas]

He's more skilled and his peak is similar but he's going to need a few more rings before we can even have this discussion

Pretty sure OP is talking about just skill alone and he is right...

Jokic is one of the goats...

Hope this thread doesnt get derailed by people going BUT RINGZZZ...

That's all that matters, you do know that right?

When Curry and Draymond are begging KD to join their already stacked team and they win two meaningless wins?
No, that scenario alone proved rings aren’t everything.

[Lockdown504090]

Maybe we should t compare paint fg% between 2004 and 20024 because of spacing and rule changes in such a simple way?

24.1% of shots were 0-3 feet in the RS this year, at 69.9% FG.

In 04, 29.7% in that range at 59.2%.

You don’t see the issue with that kind of comparison in terms of context of the league wide personnel and scheme changes? Embiid better than him too

[EmpireFalls]

Are we sure he isn’t better than Jordan then OP?

[hardenASG13]

That’s why I just said older Dirk because he is older and also old Kidd. I mean if Dirk had prime Wade instead of old Kidd, Lebron wouldve been swept again lmao. Anyway we dont know what 38 year old Jokic is his game might age nicely because he is a big. 29 year old Bron doesnt have the same IQ and shooting now Aaron Gordon might have an easier time vs a more athletic but lower IQ and shooting Lebron. Yall bron fans act as if there’s a Lebron that combined high athleticism high IQ great shooting when he didnt really have all those at once. So yea tell me then why cant 39 year old Lebron lead a team like 39 year old Duncan did. He has AD which is so much more better than old Manu and young Kawhi. Just face it, Lebron ball is not that effective. 4 championships in 22 years that not a good rate dude

Championships are hard to win. Winning 4 of them is good.
To the point about Duncan. 39 year old Lebron can lead a team like 39 year old Duncan did. Better, in fact. The 2014 spurs were just an extremely good team, top to bottom, and played beautiful basketball. The Lakers arent/don't, not nearly to the level of the 2014 spurs. That was a well oiled machine.

Believe it or not, the 2014 spurs were better than current Denver. Jokic and Denver have never played a team as close to as good as them, or the 2011 mavericks for that matter, in a playoff series.

I don’t agree that the Spurs cast of players is better as a whole, but the Nuggets have the - by far - best player in the world and a guy whose having a top 3 all-time peak. So even if the Spurs are better the Nuggets would win.

I know you’re just mad and venting because the usual Embiid choke job is going on, but please don’t continue being a hater of the Jokic-led Nuggets in every possible thread. Just focus on coping through the last 2 games of Philly’s season and listening to Nurse and Embiid (of all people!) complain about an unfair whistle.

You really have a lot of narratives running through your head, huh? I could care less about Embiid and Philly. The 2014 spurs would demolish the Denver Nuggets, they were one of the best teams of this century in that playoffs.

[Patches Perry]

We are likely too "in the moment" to make claims like this.

LeBron in 2018 is the greatest basketball player I've ever seen in my 40 years of watching the game. I don't think Jokic has reached that level although he is probably in the conversation with Shaq, Jordan, etc. Still, we need time to marinate on his accomplishments before we can properly place him. It feels like we're prisoners of the moment right now.

[KembaWalker]

If Jokic won 2 rings this year he would have an equal collection in quality to LeBron already. Miami and the bubble are worthless. 2016 is good even though it was another mercenary squad. Organic rings are the best you can get though, by far

[Cubbies2120]

Championships are hard to win. Winning 4 of them is good.
To the point about Duncan. 39 year old Lebron can lead a team like 39 year old Duncan did. Better, in fact. The 2014 spurs were just an extremely good team, top to bottom, and played beautiful basketball. The Lakers arent/don't, not nearly to the level of the 2014 spurs. That was a well oiled machine.

Believe it or not, the 2014 spurs were better than current Denver. Jokic and Denver have never played a team as close to as good as them, or the 2011 mavericks for that matter, in a playoff series.

I don’t agree that the Spurs cast of players is better as a whole, but the Nuggets have the - by far - best player in the world and a guy whose having a top 3 all-time peak. So even if the Spurs are better the Nuggets would win.

I know you’re just mad and venting because the usual Embiid choke job is going on, but please don’t continue being a hater of the Jokic-led Nuggets in every possible thread. Just focus on coping through the last 2 games of Philly’s season and listening to Nurse and Embiid (of all people!) complain about an unfair whistle.

You really have a lot of narratives running through your head, huh? I could care less about Embiid and Philly. The 2014 spurs would demolish the Denver Nuggets, they were one of the best teams of this century in that playoffs.

Wrong. The Spurs would put up a good fight, but THE SYSTEM (i.e Jokic) would prevail. Clowns spent years claiming Jokic was a playoff failure (when he literally had G-league bums as teammates) but the second he gets a decent team around him (and yes, the Nuggets are decent but elevated by Jokic) he's a world slayer. That's just facts on facts homie.

[lambchop]

Funny, because if lakers had even 33-34year old lebron instead of 39, lakers are up 2-0 and this thread isn't made. But that's life.

This sounds like copium and also not accounting for the fact that Jokic has another gear and Murray had a very bad game until the last 5 minutes.

We could play the what if game all day but the fact is Jokic has shown over the past 4-5 years that his greatness is no fluke. No need to diminish it.

Yep, that's just the way primes and ageing work. 2012 LBJ doesn't get to the finals if he plays those 2008 Celtics, instead of the 2012 version.

Jokic is having an extraordinary prime and peak. Literally no flaw in his offensive game.

[tsherkin]

Maybe we should t compare paint fg% between 2004 and 20024 because of spacing and rule changes in such a simple way?

24.1% of shots were 0-3 feet in the RS this year, at 69.9% FG.

In 04, 29.7% in that range at 59.2%.

You don’t see the issue with that kind of comparison in terms of context of the league wide personnel and scheme changes? Embiid better than him too

I'm just here to provide the numbers you were looking for; you werent having that discussion with me

Would be neat if someone could break that down for slashers/smalls vs bigs, though.

[hardenASG13]

I don’t agree that the Spurs cast of players is better as a whole, but the Nuggets have the - by far - best player in the world and a guy whose having a top 3 all-time peak. So even if the Spurs are better the Nuggets would win.

I know you’re just mad and venting because the usual Embiid choke job is going on, but please don’t continue being a hater of the Jokic-led Nuggets in every possible thread. Just focus on coping through the last 2 games of Philly’s season and listening to Nurse and Embiid (of all people!) complain about an unfair whistle.

You really have a lot of narratives running through your head, huh? I could care less about Embiid and Philly. The 2014 spurs would demolish the Denver Nuggets, they were one of the best teams of this century in that playoffs.

Wrong. The Spurs would put up a good fight, but THE SYSTEM (i.e Jokic) would prevail. Clowns spent years claiming Jokic was a playoff failure (when he literally had G-league bums as teammates) but the second he gets a decent team around him (and yes, the Nuggets are decent but elevated by Jokic) he's a world slayer. That's just facts on facts homie.

What are you basing that off of? Who's the best team Denver has beat in a playoff series to make you think that? What team that Denver has beat was better than even the Harden rockets, for example, let alone the 2014 spurs. It simply has to be proven, and to this point hasn't. I know you can only play who's in front of you, that doesn't mean all wins are of the same quality. Denver hasn't done anything too impressive to this point, certainly not on the level of the Duncan Spurs, particularly that 2014 group who played remarkable basketball, some of the best I've ever seen.

[Cubbies2120]

You really have a lot of narratives running through your head, huh? I could care less about Embiid and Philly. The 2014 spurs would demolish the Denver Nuggets, they were one of the best teams of this century in that playoffs.

Wrong. The Spurs would put up a good fight, but THE SYSTEM (i.e Jokic) would prevail. Clowns spent years claiming Jokic was a playoff failure (when he literally had G-league bums as teammates) but the second he gets a decent team around him (and yes, the Nuggets are decent but elevated by Jokic) he's a world slayer. That's just facts on facts homie.

What are you basing that off of? Who's the best team Denver has beat in a playoff series to make you think that? What team that Denver has beat was better than even the Harden rockets, for example, let alone the 2014 spurs. It simply has to be proven, and to this point hasn't. I know you can only play who's in front of you, that doesn't mean all wins are of the same quality. Denver hasn't done anything too impressive to this point, certainly not on the level of the Duncan Spurs, particularly that 2014 group who played remarkable basketball, some of the best I've ever seen.

Jokic, last season, took out the following future Hall of Famers in last year's playoff run: LeBron/AD, KD/Booker, Gobert/Antman, Butler. All of this as a one-man team with no all-star teammates!

[ReddoverKobe]

Hot take culture broke sports conversations

[dhsilv2]

We are likely too "in the moment" to make claims like this.

LeBron in 2018 is the greatest basketball player I've ever seen in my 40 years of watching the game. I don't think Jokic has reached that level although he is probably in the conversation with Shaq, Jordan, etc. Still, we need time to marinate on his accomplishments before we can properly place him. It feels like we're prisoners of the moment right now.

2018? That isn't even remotely close to Lebron's best season. Are you talking about something like for 2 playoff series? Cause otherwise, that version of Lebron is half the player of 2009 or 2013.

[hardenASG13]

Wrong. The Spurs would put up a good fight, but THE SYSTEM (i.e Jokic) would prevail. Clowns spent years claiming Jokic was a playoff failure (when he literally had G-league bums as teammates) but the second he gets a decent team around him (and yes, the Nuggets are decent but elevated by Jokic) he's a world slayer. That's just facts on facts homie.

What are you basing that off of? Who's the best team Denver has beat in a playoff series to make you think that? What team that Denver has beat was better than even the Harden rockets, for example, let alone the 2014 spurs. It simply has to be proven, and to this point hasn't. I know you can only play who's in front of you, that doesn't mean all wins are of the same quality. Denver hasn't done anything too impressive to this point, certainly not on the level of the Duncan Spurs, particularly that 2014 group who played remarkable basketball, some of the best I've ever seen.

Jokic, last season, took out the following future Hall of Famers in last year's playoff run: LeBron/AD, KD/Booker, Gobert/Antman, Butler. All of this as a one-man team with no all-star teammates!

Yawn. None of those were championship contending levels of opponents, traditionally. Do you disagree? Do you think Lebron and KD are what they once were?

If Denver takes out Boston this year I'll gladly change my opinion. There used to be a team like Boston every year that good players/teams had to get through. That certainly wasn't the case last year, and hasn't been this decade.

[SK21209]

He needs to tie LeBron in rings first for me to even entertain that conversation

Cool, so who are the two HOF players to help Jokic win like Lebron had in Miami?

Murray was better in the playoffs last year than Wade was in any of the 4 Heat postseason runs.

[TinmanZBoy]

I would say his consistency is the most impressive

[Patches Perry]

We are likely too "in the moment" to make claims like this.

LeBron in 2018 is the greatest basketball player I've ever seen in my 40 years of watching the game. I don't think Jokic has reached that level although he is probably in the conversation with Shaq, Jordan, etc. Still, we need time to marinate on his accomplishments before we can properly place him. It feels like we're prisoners of the moment right now.

2018? That isn't even remotely close to Lebron's best season. Are you talking about something like for 2 playoff series? Cause otherwise, that version of Lebron is half the player of 2009 or 2013.

Sorry to confuse, I was referring to 2018 postseason LeBron. He was just unreal the whole playoffs. I agree his best regular season is probably 2009 or 2013 closer to his athletic prime.

[Jta444]

What are you basing that off of? Who's the best team Denver has beat in a playoff series to make you think that? What team that Denver has beat was better than even the Harden rockets, for example, let alone the 2014 spurs. It simply has to be proven, and to this point hasn't. I know you can only play who's in front of you, that doesn't mean all wins are of the same quality. Denver hasn't done anything too impressive to this point, certainly not on the level of the Duncan Spurs, particularly that 2014 group who played remarkable basketball, some of the best I've ever seen.

Jokic, last season, took out the following future Hall of Famers in last year's playoff run: LeBron/AD, KD/Booker, Gobert/Antman, Butler. All of this as a one-man team with no all-star teammates!

Yawn. None of those were championship contending levels of opponents, traditionally. Do you disagree? Do you think Lebron and KD are what they once were?

If Denver takes out Boston this year I'll gladly change my opinion. There used to be a team like Boston every year that good players/teams had to get through. That certainly wasn't the case last year, and hasn't been this decade.

But that run by Denver last year beats any of Lebron’s playoff runs.
Name me a Lebron all time great playoff run. All his runs are weak. Are you gonna say 2016?

1st round Reggie Jackson lmao;
2nd round Millsap lol;
3rd round Derozan (kyrie better than derozan lol);
Finals slightly injured Curry, Draymond suspended one game

beating those 2016 Warriors is overrated, also the fact that later on Rockets would challenge them and that’s with adding KD. Cavs never challenged those KD warriors like rockets did, and Lebron supposed to be the GOAT?

[dhsilv2]

We are likely too "in the moment" to make claims like this.

LeBron in 2018 is the greatest basketball player I've ever seen in my 40 years of watching the game. I don't think Jokic has reached that level although he is probably in the conversation with Shaq, Jordan, etc. Still, we need time to marinate on his accomplishments before we can properly place him. It feels like we're prisoners of the moment right now.

2018? That isn't even remotely close to Lebron's best season. Are you talking about something like for 2 playoff series? Cause otherwise, that version of Lebron is half the player of 2009 or 2013.

Sorry to confuse, I was referring to 2018 postseason LeBron. He was just unreal the whole playoffs. I agree his best regular season is probably 2009 or 2013 closer to his athletic prime.

When we talk peaks, I think playoffs alone aren't a good indicator. Couple reasons. First, most guys get better teammates after their athletic peaks. Just kinda how team building tends to workout. Second, as guys get older they certainly get better at exploiting favorable matchups and that makes it harder to judge if it was the matchup or the player.

That said...I can't say you're wrong to do that. But I just struggle with how to judge that Lebron looked amazing vs a warriors team that had Iggy getting too old to guard him. Meanwhile vs Boston...absolutely killed it. But half their rotation was pre prime/peak. Tatum was 19-20 years old. And they still went 7. But that's the kinda dream series for an old fox like Lebron past his peak but still able to have moments.