Would Shaq be GOAT if...

[tsherkin]

Tsherkin- how tall are you, how much do you weigh, and what is your body fat percentage? What is your activity level, and what is your profession? I live a pretty tame life, but I still don't have much time out of my office to dedicate to my job because I focus the rest of my time on my family and hobbies.

6'2, 150, 8%.

I am a full-time student at university with a full course load, I attend a 3-hour bartending course two nights a week, I work 24 hours a week and I have to work in a minimum of 7 hours of practice on my guitar (usually more like 14 but it fluctuates wildly between those two poles) around about 12 hours of basketball and about 7 hours of working out.

Working out for me doesn't include a lot of weights yet, that's something I'm getting into once I've got better core strength and flexibility, which means I mostly do a lot of plyometrics and cardio, mixed in with some resistance training and some very light weight training (mostly low weight, high rep stuff).

EDIT: I suppose the 'why' is pertinent; I've had a couple of nasty shoulder, back and leg injuries on my right side and have spent time rehabbing those and the peripheral damage they caused besides the actual injury themselves. Consequently, my musculature is way off-kilter and requires stabilization before I can pursue more serious weight training. Besides the plyo and cardio, I occasionally mix in some yoga and will be adding tai chi after I move in the summer.

I'm no Chris Cormier, but without a shirt on, the girls tend to double take (not bragging, just being truthful).

Well done (no sarcasm), it's always good to see someone successful.

EDIT: I can confess no such thing, but I suppose that I have no idea what they say since I never remove my shirt in public. It's probably because I used to be a complete rail and have a phobia of doing so, even though I'm broadening out reasonably well and have good abs, lol.

Shaq and all of his coaches have gone on record saying he's never exceeded 15% body fat. Even at his heaviest. And as we all know, muscle weighs more than fat. A person with more muscle mass will be heavier. That is the goal Shaq set out to achieve upon becoming a Laker to put up with the physical demands of playing in the Western Conference. I'm not making this up. This comes from him and Phil Jackson.

And I don't doubt a word of it. I still think he's as dumb as a post for getting as large as he did in L.A., whether it was all muscle or not.

About his conditioning, I can't say he was in poor or good shape.

I consider poor conditioning a level of physical conditioning at which you cannot perform as well as you did when your conditioning was superior in the past... Shaq detrimentally affected himself over the span of his career.

I do know that even the best conditioned athletes can be prone to injury. Was Alonzo out of shape when he tore his knee up? Was TMac out of shape when he had his FIRST back problem? No. Injuries are part of the game. Was Shaq kneed in the thigh on the last game of the night by Jermaine Oneal because he was out of shape or poorly conditioned? Was DWade's shoulder damaged because he was poorly conditioned?

This is just ridiculous... Alonzo's injury was clearly the result of a freak injury; Shaq missed games because he delayed a toe surgery because he wanted it done on "company time." He has almost ALWAYS had poor Novembers because his conditioning is never even close to game shape. I understand that most players even with proper off-season routines can't completely simulate NBA season conditions with their workouts but Shaq has been appallingly out of shape in more than a few season openers.

Maybe he wasn't in Olympic Sprinter shape, but when he was so "fat and poorly conditioned," he led the Lakers to a 3 peat while being the Finals MVP all 3 times. Conversely, in his years with the Heat, he's been clearly better conditioned coming into camp, and has been less effective. Conicindentally, the rule changes took place around that time.

No, the rule changes have a lot less to do with it than his legs and his advancing age, though they've certainly contributed.

He didn't neglect to expand his game, as some people have said. He's hired shooting coaches, strength coaches, etc. to help him develop into a better player.

Does he still have the coach? Dirk still regularly sees his shooting coach; Shaq does not. He gives up too easily on such things and has never displayed the dedication necessary to adapt his game to be successful at an NBA level. You can't hire a shooting coach for an off-season as one of the worst free throw shooters in history and expect immediate results.

Maybe he didn't spend hours in the arena like Kobe, but he didn't spend any time in a Colorado Court room, either.

Not at all relevant.

And I never said there weren't other players who did good for their community. I just said that it's sad that everyone beats up on Shaq for his "poor conditioning" and "laziness", but not much of a big deal is made for any of the positive that he has done.

Well really, I don't care about what he has or hasn't done off the court that does not pertain to basketball when it comes up in a discussion about his on-court efficacy, if you'll pardon my bluntness. It's a nice aside but just that, an aside.

If you remember correctly, going back to his days at Cole H.S., he had decent range on his jumper. He was a lot smaller back then. He also was a very good ballhandler (watch the McDonald's game when he was a Sr.).

I'm aware that he had transition handles; he showed them off through his time in Orlando. He even had a basic face-up game and yeah, about 12-foot range on his J, though it was shaky and inconsistent.

However, he has repeatedly said that he wanted to become a low post, back to the basket center and spent all of his time working on becoming just that. Why spend time practicing 3 pointers or 15 ft. jumpers if banging down low produced you 3 titles in a row?

Three-pointers would be a waste of time; a 15-footer would help with his free throw shooting and allow him to fade up to the foul line to be a high-post guy sometimes, as I ALREADY said, so that he could play a little bit less physical when he had a bunch of early fouls but could still be effective and involved in the offense. It'd also have helped a lot once he started to decline so noticeably due to age... and would help against the zone.

Why don't you just focus on the positives.

Because that would be stupid? We're discussing a player, and more than that, we're discussing him in the context of what he would have needed to achieve or do in order to be the GOAT. Focusing on the positives is just dumb.

And actually, Jackson wouldn't have had to change the playbook, he would simply have started to drawn on aspects of the triangle heretofore unavailable to him on account of Shaq's limited range... the triangle is a fairly diverse system and it's actually centered around post players in both the low and high post...

EDIT: I understand that injury affects conditioning and that Shaq cannot be held accountable for playing poorly in the immediate aftermath of a return from an injury. It is worth mentioning that you can train yourself to be resistant to injury, however, and generally speaking, if you have a significant amount of mass in tandem with such training, you are generally better off. T-Mac is injury-prone because he was overplayed when he was younger and because he was a rail when he started getting his minutes in Orlando; his body was abused, not taken care of. He didn't even start working out regularly during the season until mid-way through his career, he did mostly off-season training. He's a bad example and so is 'Zo's knee injury. Shaq's had a couple of injuries in his career that were assuredly unavoidable, you have to be lucky not to.

It's not that he should have been Karl Malone, with his body fat percentage around mine, perhaps lower, despite being 260; Malone lifted as a hobby, not just out of necessity. But there are plenty of guys who conditioned themselves for longevity.

Look at Kareem... he was one of the first athletes to really get into yoga in a big way in order to help prevent injury and increase longevity. It helped him be effective even when he was playing at his heaviest weights into his late 30s and even at 40, 41.

[NO-KG-AI]

I always though getting as big as he did was pretty useless. going up to 370-380 was nice to be able to overpower everyone... but seriously, who could match his power at 315-320? Combine that with his athletic ability, and ability to stay healthy was also better at that weight, it should have been a no-brainer.

[ljp24]

If Kobe and Shaq didnt act like girls. They would have AT LEAST 5 titles right now.

00-03, Minnesota or Detroit have potential to take them out in '04, than another in '05 when Shaq and Phil give Kobe the reins(if they haven't already).

[_BBIB_]

If he could have hit his FTs in his prime in a normal rate, lets say in the lower 80%?

I mean he would have been absolutely unstoppable, as hack a shaq wouldnt work? Plus he would have had at least 5 PPG more, he could play the final minutes of close games etc...

So would Shaq have been GOAT or at elast the greatest big to play the game if he had a FT shot?

If the refs simply let him use his size to his advantage instead of bailing out defenders with offensive foul calls, he would be the GOAT.


That or if Kobe and Shaq could have set aside their differences they could have won 3-4 more titles and he could be up there.

[britblazerdude]

No Because Arvydas is in my mind

[bleu]

there's no way that shaq would be GOAT just cus he hit free throws

[cdubbz]

shaq would be GOAT if he were 5/5 in the finals. I dont see how he couldnt win the last title with the lakers...the pistons had a great great team,but shaq was still playing at the top of his game.

[Red Robot]

How many more games would Shaq's teams have won? I imagine he would have picked up many more regular season wins, but would it ever have affected the outcome of a playoff series?

[MalReyn]

I hate to get involved in the "laziness of Shaq" debate, but I can't help but drop a few words.

I've always thought his "laziness" is a little overplayed because of his actions in recent years. Up to and including the 02-03 season he seemed to have much more of a drive. I feel like his feud with Kobe took a lot of that drive out of him, and after that he just started coasting.

Anyway, Shaq wouldn't be GOAT if he hit his free throws, but he could have an extra championship or two. In either 02-03 or 03-04 things might have gone differently.

[jaypo]

If my memory serves me right, Tsherkin, your Yoga example holds little water- Shaq has been doing that since this offseason. And have you seen the difference in his body since coming from the Lakers? He has obviously dropped about 60 lbs. That, to me, displays dedication. He's reported to camp in the best shape of his life since his Orlando days since he's been on the Heat. When he was on the Lakers, even if he was big and out of shape, he dominated. DOMINATED!! If he could do what he did and still be an out of shape, lazy, unmotivated person, then he certainly is the GOAT.

It's kind of like the old saying, "If my aunt had ballz, she'd be my uncle!"

Maybe Shaq did as much as he could do to improve his game. Maybe he can't get any better. But he has 4 rings and countless other awards to show his greatness.

BTW: His FT's are also a by product of an injury he sustained to his wrist long ago. It's not all mental.

[jaypo]

"He's judged more than a lot of the athletes in the world because of who he is, who he has become," Wade said. "If he's playing and hurting and not playing good, he's being talked about. If he's not playing and he's trying to get healthy, then he's being talked about for taking time off. It's a lose-lose situation"

I found this interesting quote today said by none other than Dwayne Wade. At least he agrees with me! I've been saying this since the season started.

[5DOM]

"He's judged more than a lot of the athletes in the world because of who he is, who he has become," Wade said. "If he's playing and hurting and not playing good, he's being talked about. If he's not playing and he's trying to get healthy, then he's being talked about for taking time off. It's a lose-lose situation"

I found this interesting quote today said by none other than Dwayne Wade. At least he agrees with me! I've been saying this since the season started.

what do you expect him to say?

but hes right tho

[NO-KG-AI]

If my memory serves me right, Tsherkin, your Yoga example holds little water- Shaq has been doing that since this offseason. And have you seen the difference in his body since coming from the Lakers? He has obviously dropped about 60 lbs. That, to me, displays dedication. He's reported to camp in the best shape of his life since his Orlando days since he's been on the Heat. When he was on the Lakers, even if he was big and out of shape, he dominated. DOMINATED!! If he could do what he did and still be an out of shape, lazy, unmotivated person, then he certainly is the GOAT.

It's kind of like the old saying, "If my aunt had ballz, she'd be my uncle!"

Maybe Shaq did as much as he could do to improve his game. Maybe he can't get any better. But he has 4 rings and countless other awards to show his greatness.

BTW: His FT's are also a by product of an injury he sustained to his wrist long ago. It's not all mental.

I had never heard that, I always assumed it was due to abnormally large hands, and being so strong that he can't put any sort of touch onto the ball.

Imagine wrapping your hand around a tiny nerf ball and then trying shoot FT's with it, that would be sort of similar.

[tsherkin]

If my memory serves me right, Tsherkin

Is everyone on these boards blind? I don't mean to pick on you in particular, but what about my nickname suggests you should capitalize it?

, your Yoga example holds little water- Shaq has been doing that since this offseason. And have you seen the difference in his body since coming from the Lakers? He has obviously dropped about 60 lbs. That, to me, displays dedication. He's reported to camp in the best shape of his life since his Orlando days since he's been on the Heat. When he was on the Lakers, even if he was big and out of shape, he dominated. DOMINATED!! If he could do what he did and still be an out of shape, lazy, unmotivated person, then he certainly is the GOAT.

Shaq has certainly made efforts to improve his conditioning since coming to Miami but...

Regarding his beginning a yoga regimen...

''Just to be flexible, to get limber. In my 15 years, I've never stretched before games. This is the first time I'' will.

And this to me suggests a fairly foolish approach to playing NBA basketball, especially when you know it's going to get physical.

This year, I mean, he has soft tissue damage and inflammation in his though, you can't get on him about this.

But what he's doing now in Miami is irrelevant to what he did or didn't do in Orlando and in L.A... and he got overly and counterproductively large in L.A. And no, just because he was carrying excessive amounts of weight and still dominated does not make him the GOAT... he could have dominated more if he was putting forth more effort and in better shape.

Maybe Shaq did as much as he could do to improve his game. Maybe he can't get any better.

Disagreed... he has very explicitly NOT done everything he could to improve his game by refusing Rick Barry's offer and not attempting to learn the skyhook and limiting his game the way he has.

BTW: His FT's are also a by product of an injury he sustained to his wrist long ago. It's not all mental.

Yes, I'm aware of his misaligned wrist; as I recall, he busted it falling out of a tree as a kid. But that wouldn't really do anything to affect an underhanded toss, that's pure ego stopping him there... by his own words and reaction to Rick Barry, no less. Same reason he elected not to use the skyhook.

[jaypo]

He has used the skyhook in games. I've seen it. But why would someone that was averaging 27 or so points a game need to add more to his offense that just produced 3 titles in a row? Just so he could average 30? They won 3 in a row and made it to the finals 4 times in 5 years with him leading the way. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. Why mess with what's working? The f/t issue is another story. But I reiterate my earlier statement- it seems that Shaq is always being dumped on because he didn't do what everyone else thinks he should have done over the span of his career. However, he has done what many players could only dream about doing.

[jaypo]

And I capitalize names just as a habit. If you name was James, I'd capitalize it.

[tsherkin]

And I capitalize names just as a habit. If you name was James, I'd capitalize it.

Well, you're incorrect in using it in this case because it's not a name, it's a nickname and capitalizing it inaccurately presents the name as it is typed, so please don't.

He has used the skyhook in games. I've seen it.

I've seen him use jump hooks and full-turn hook shots but I have never seen him skyhook on the baseline or at the foul line. The skyhook is a fairly particular KIND of hook shot that Shaq has, in the past, explicitly stated that he's not going to use. I've also noticed that his left hand is pretty crappy and he has historically used an awkward right-handed hook when he turns baseline on the left block, which is really, really bad.

But why would someone that was averaging 27 or so points a game need to add more to his offense that just produced 3 titles in a row? Just so he could average 30? They won 3 in a row and made it to the finals 4 times in 5 years with him leading the way. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. Why mess with what's working?

Expanding his game would have helped him get around defenses that played him ways that limited him in the past (for example in '03 and '05) and would help to make him more effective now that his athleticism is no longer a dominant force in his game. It would have slowed down his decline and made him more effective for longer.

[kooldude]

He has used the skyhook in games. I've seen it. But why would someone that was averaging 27 or so points a game need to add more to his offense that just produced 3 titles in a row? Just so he could average 30? They won 3 in a row and made it to the finals 4 times in 5 years with him leading the way. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. Why mess with what's working? The f/t issue is another story. But I reiterate my earlier statement- it seems that Shaq is always being dumped on because he didn't do what everyone else thinks he should have done over the span of his career. However, he has done what many players could only dream about doing.

No one say Shaq needed "fixing". But there were some aspects of his game that he could have improved upon to maximize his physical abilities. People are saying that if Shaq did work harder, he could have been the GOAT. Again, no one is undermining his past achievements; he was a great player.

[GJense4181]

LOL@not fixing what isn't broke!

Areas that Shaquille O'Neal had little to no skill in:
Free throws. How many more ppg would he have averaged if he shot 70% for his career? Attempting over 10 FT a game and only connecting on 52% of them is horrible. He'd have averaged two more points a game if he swallowed his pride and actually practiced a workable method. We'd be looking at a career 28ppg guy.
Any semblance of a jumpshot. There are several players with busted form that still get off jumpers. I don't care how big his hands are; if Yao Ming can be proficient from beyond 8 feet, so can Shaq.
Using the glass. In recent years his shot hasn't proven to be as soft and he'll hurl up pathetic bricks. If he only learned to shoot the even HIGHER percentage shot and refrained from trying to swish every attempt, he'd be much better of.
Anything remotely close to a hookshot. Most unstoppable individual move in the game. If Shaq had TWO unstoppable moves under his belt?
Ball-handling besides a power dribble. I'm not asking him to cross people over at the top of the key. He simply could have acquired some high-post skills.
Pump-faking/drawing fouls. He gets fouled because he sucks at shooting free throws. Teams will throw stiffs at him simply because they have 6 fouls to burn. If Shaq was more methodical and didn't try to bulldoze through every defender, he'd have a much easier time drawing fouls and avoid having offensive fouls called against him.
Involving the other big man in the offense. Shaq has done an excellent job of finding cutters and assisting little guys, but I have never once seen him throw a lob to his PF. Or set a pick for one. Or anything of that sort.

and then some. He was dominant but his game was not even CLOSE to well-rounded, EVEN for a true center, which tends to have a limited definition/skillset.

[Blame Rasho]

Not in my opinion... if he was committed to being healthy he would have 2X the hardware he has now currently and have a legit claim to being the GOAT.