MVP discussion thread

[MisterWestside]

Rose didn't have better stats than Lebron. In fact, they were worse, and he won it because his team was in first.

Rose won it because he was the more valuable player, though. James went to a brand new team that he had to fit in with; Rose was at the center of a properly-constructed squad that won 66 games and was more dependent on his talents at the time.

Was James still the superior basketball player? Would I still take him before Rose if starting a team? Yes and yes. But that's not what the MVP is for, fair or not.

[aquaadverse]

Rose didn't have better stats than Lebron. In fact, they were worse, and he won it because his team was in first.

Rose won it because he was the more valuable player, though. James went to a brand new team that he had to fit in with; Rose was at the center of a properly-constructed squad that won 66 games and was more dependent on his talents at the time.

Was James still the superior basketball player? Would I still take him before Rose if starting a team? Yes and yes. But that's not what the MVP is for, fair or not.

Yeah, I had no problem with his MVP using the "clearly most dominate player at an elite level on the team with the best regular season record" criteria. Which is far different from the "whose team sucks worse without them" school of thought.

[Pacerlive]

To the stats point I think its relatively different for certain positions and styles. Statistically post up players should dominate with higher percentage shots and that threat creates for others in the form of double teams much like a pnr point guard creates off of pick and rolls. Which one do I respect more? I would say the one that requires less of my team to help me be an effective player. Lebron is different since he can do both but a point guards stats come harder than a point forward imo and certainly health is major factor as well. Physically its easier for Lebron than say Drose to produce at a high level but there are so few point forwards in history that Lebron really stands out from the rest.

[Doctor MJ]

To the stats point I think its relatively different for certain positions and styles. Statistically post up players should dominate with higher percentage shots and that threat creates for others in the form of double teams much like a pnr point guard creates off of pick and rolls. Which one do I respect more? I would say the one that requires less of my team to help me be an effective player. Lebron is different since he can do both but a point guards stats come harder than a point forward imo and certainly health is major factor as well. Physically its easier for Lebron than say Drose to produce at a high level but there are so few point forwards in history that Lebron really stands out from the rest.

A "point forward" is simply a guy in a bigger body with the brain do what point guards are supposed to do. There are so few of them because it's rare to have that combination of talents.

Also, while I would agree with you that in general true point guards are underrated by box score stats, that's not what Derrick Rose is. Rose is a combo guard, and like most combo guards he's in the league primarily because of his athleticism, which is why this type of player is actually overrated by box score stats typically.

[Kayjay]

Rose is a combo guard, and like most combo guards he's in the league primarily because of his athleticism, which is why this type of player is actually overrated by box score stats typically.

this sentence is a complete non-sequitur

[Doctor MJ]

Rose is a combo guard, and like most combo guards he's in the league primarily because of his athleticism, which is why this type of player is actually overrated by box score stats typically.

this sentence is a complete non-sequitur

Sorry, the assumed bit of that sentence I didn't explicitly write before:

Box score overrates the physical and underrates the mental.

[xMADEinDADEx]

Hey if guys like frenchie and cp3 can put up solid stats, so can rose.

Although I see both sides of the argument.


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[Hero]

Durant's 3 point percentage has dropped considerably this year. Anyone have an explanation? I imagine part of it is due to the loss of Kevin Martin but still..

[fallacy]

Durant's 3 point percentage has dropped considerably this year. Anyone have an explanation? I imagine part of it is due to the loss of Kevin Martin but still..

he's shooting 37% from 3 this year. He's a career 37% three point shooter

[mademan]

Durant's been struggling with his shooting in general. I've seen him miss so many shots that used to be automatic for him.

[therealbig3]

I would say it's still LeBron's award to lose. Not including tonight's games:

LeBron: 26.0 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 6.6 apg, 3.8 TOpg, 70.0% TS, 124 ORating

Paul: 19.3 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 12.5 apg, 2.9 TOpg, 58.5% TS, 125 ORating

George: 24.3 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.8 TOpg, 59.6% TS, 113 ORating

Durant: 28.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 5.2 apg, 3.8 TOpg, 62.4% TS, 120 ORating

I would say LeBron is putting up the most impressive offensive numbers, and is the best overall defender as well. And his team is better than anyone else's outside of George's, by only 2 games. Meanwhile, LeBron is clearly the most dominant player in the game today.


Who else deserves consideration? None of the teams in the East are really any good outside of Indiana and Miami...the 3rd best team is at .500 right now.

Looking at the teams that are off to hot starts in the West, you have Portland and SA. But they're both winning because of great team efforts right now, there's no clear "man" that's carrying those teams. I guess you could argue for guys like Parker and Aldridge, but the whole matter of "how much of SA's success is due to Popovich as opposed to Parker" comes up, which is actually a legit debate imo. And in Portland...it's arguable whether or not Aldridge is better than Lillard, and both Batum and Matthews have been fantastic. Like I said, Portland is winning based on great effort all-around, not mainly because of one guy. Ditto in SA.

[MisterWestside]

Like I said, Portland is winning based on great effort all-around, not mainly because of one guy. Ditto in SA.

Well, Miami is winning with great effort all-around too, not just because of LeBron

I see what you're saying though. Parker and Lillard are playing terrific basketball, but they're just a level below the four players you mentioned.

[therealbig3]

From what I've come to accept about Jordan's MVPs is that although he was robbed in 97...you could make a very strong case that Malone was robbed in 98 and that Jordan's missed MVP was made up for in that sense. And if we accept Barkley in 93 to be an acceptable winner...then I don't think Jordan missed out on any MVP awards. 5 seems fair.

Can we honestly say he was more deserving of the MVP award than Magic/Bird from 85-87? I don't think so.

This brings us to the 88-90 stretch where he only won once. But let's look at 88, the year he won. Why should he have won over Bird and Magic, especially if we use traditional criteria? They both had monster statistical production as well, and their teams were better. They were the more established stars at that point as well. You could argue that Jordan won an undeserved MVP that year.

89 and 90, Magic won. Bird is injured and isn't as effective anymore. So it's really between Magic and Jordan at this point (actually Barkley finished ahead of Jordan in 90, which is also fair, because he had a monster year as well). The Bulls weren't that good in 89 and 90, while Magic's Lakers were, and again, Magic is still putting up monster production himself, and he was doing this WITHOUT Kareem. I definitely think he deserved the awards in those years.

So I'm ok with Jordan only winning in 88, and even that was debatable. The only years you could really say he was robbed would be 97, and he got another debatable MVP award in 98. So max, Jordan should have won 6 MVPs as opposed to 5, but you could also make the case that he should only have 4 MVPs as well, if you give him 97, but take away 88 and 98.

I think the whole "Jordan was robbed of MVPs and should have a lot more" argument is really overstated if you actually analyze the years in question.

[mopper8]

From what I've come to accept about Jordan's MVPs is that although he was robbed in 97...you could make a very strong case that Malone was robbed in 98 and that Jordan's missed MVP was made up for in that sense. And if we accept Barkley in 93 to be an acceptable winner...then I don't think Jordan missed out on any MVP awards. 5 seems fair.

Can we honestly say he was more deserving of the MVP award than Magic/Bird from 85-87? I don't think so.

This brings us to the 88-90 stretch where he only won once. But let's look at 88, the year he won. Why should he have won over Bird and Magic, especially if we use traditional criteria? They both had monster statistical production as well, and their teams were better. They were the more established stars at that point as well. You could argue that Jordan won an undeserved MVP that year.

89 and 90, Magic won. Bird is injured and isn't as effective anymore. So it's really between Magic and Jordan at this point (actually Barkley finished ahead of Jordan in 90, which is also fair, because he had a monster year as well). The Bulls weren't that good in 89 and 90, while Magic's Lakers were, and again, Magic is still putting up monster production himself, and he was doing this WITHOUT Kareem. I definitely think he deserved the awards in those years.

So I'm ok with Jordan only winning in 88, and even that was debatable. The only years you could really say he was robbed would be 97, and he got another debatable MVP award in 98. So max, Jordan should have won 6 MVPs as opposed to 5, but you could also make the case that he should only have 4 MVPs as well, if you give him 97, but take away 88 and 98.

I think the whole "Jordan was robbed of MVPs and should have a lot more" argument is really overstated if you actually analyze the years in question.

Yeah, there is a sense that Jordan was the clear-cut best player in the NBA for 11 straight years and so 5 MVPs seems low. But he played baseball for 1.5 of those seasons so really you're talking max 9, and he was competing with a peak Magic on a better team early. It's not crazy that he lost a few to Magic, Barkley, and Malone. 5 seems about right.

[kingkirk]

Well Kevin Love is officially out of the race now that the Wolves are under .500.

[Hero]

Durant's 3 point percentage has dropped considerably this year. Anyone have an explanation? I imagine part of it is due to the loss of Kevin Martin but still..

he's shooting 37% from 3 this year. He's a career 37% three point shooter

He was almost 42% from 3 last year. This year he has been around 36-37% from three. I don't know about the 50-40-90 happening again.

[NinjaSheppard]

explanation= sample size

[Rasho_libre]

Durant's been struggling with his shooting in general. I've seen him miss so many shots that used to be automatic for him.

He seems just as good as ever when he's focused on it. What I've seen sway is how often he's just looking for calls which is throwing him off from finishing plays when he doesn't get the call.,

[Chalky White]

People here obviously don't understand sample sizes.

[fallacy]

Durant's 3 point percentage has dropped considerably this year. Anyone have an explanation? I imagine part of it is due to the loss of Kevin Martin but still..

he's shooting 37% from 3 this year. He's a career 37% three point shooter

He was almost 42% from 3 last year. This year he has been around 36-37% from three. I don't know about the 50-40-90 happening again.

People expected that to happen again? 50/40/90 is one of the rarest accomplishments in the NBA, Durant is likely never to do it again. Lebron will never do it in his career. Let's not pretend it's easy

Durant after November last year: 48%/29%/87%
Durant so far this year: 46%/37%/88%

Durant is off to a better start this year shooting than he was last year