Is Yao considered a bust?

[Transistor]

Safe to say Yao isin't a bust

Between expectations and actual performance, Darko and Kwame are busts. Yao is far from that

Interesting how the Rockets will look next year w/ him back

[Ming Kong!]

One of the top centers of all time is a bust? Ok.

All time? I don't think so.

Hes one of the best in league when he is playing. He would probably be considered "better" than Dwight if he was an iron man, but with all the injuries he is probably locked into the second best slot.

Wouldn't you say Yao is atleast top 25 all-time?

I don't even think he is top 25.

Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Robinson
Mikan
Ewing
Howard
Olajuwon
Reed
Parish
Walton
Moses
Mutombo
Unseld
Thurmond
McAdoo
Bellamy
Gilmore
Schayes (F/C)
Lucas (F/C)
Cowens
Haywood (F/C)
Hayes (F/C)
Mourning

I mean we are considering he's only played 4 full seasons, then 3 seasons were he's played 50-70% of the games, and this year he missed the whole year. 481 games over 8 years @ 19.1ppg 9.3rpg 1.9bpg is not that impressive for a 7 footer, not to mention that his numbers are likely to start declining if he ever suits up again.

[tsherkin]

How is Yao are superior center when he is worse at rebounding, worse at defense, and worse in raw ppg the last time both were healthy?

The last time both players were healthy was last season... when Yao averaged 22 ppg... which is higher than Dwight's career-best seasonal scoring average. Come again?

Furthermore, the 04-05 to 06-07 Yao Ming had a 25/5/5 Tracy McGrady on his team. And a 27/7/7 player in the playoffs.

And in that time, T-Mac played 78, 47, 71, 66 and 35 games. He hasn't been healthy.

And behind them? You're talking a mix of Mutombo's re-animated corpse, Bob Sura, Mike James, Jon Barry, Juwan Howard... etc, etc.

People moaning about Yao's rebounding numbers need to remember he's 7'6... after a certain point, there are diminishing returns to rebounding where height is concerned because excessive height limits mobility.

Pro tip: of all the players 7'3+ or better that have played in the NBA/BAA or the ABA, there have been only 37 instances of a player recording a season of 7+ rpg over 50+ games.

We're looking at Mark Eaton, Arvydas Sabonis, Shawn Bradley, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Rik Smits, Yao, Gheorge Muresan and Ralph Sampson.

Now narrow it down to 9+. Yao has 3 of the 11 seasons recorded where a guy that big rebounded like that.

Mark Eaton wasn't any better a rebounder than Yao; Yao is in fact a better rebounder at both ends of the floor than Eaton, comparable to Ralph Sampson (the two guys who have most of those 11 seasons, 5 of them combined). Sabonis was a better defensive rebounder but worse on the offensive glass... and 2 or 3 inches shorter. Muresan was better on the offensive glass and a little worse on the defensive glass by rate, but peaked at 29.5 mpg and his career ended due to injury (like Sampson). Big Z is a much better offensive rebounder, much worse defensive rebounder, and 3 inches shorter.

Here's some fun: 50+ games, 7'5+, 9+ rpg? Yao's three seasons and Gheorge Muresan.

Quit complaining about his rebounding. Yes, it isn't as good as Dwight's. Yes, he's the best rebounder of his size the league has ever seen, and it relates to mobility.

Yes, Dwight gets more rebounds per game. No, he's not considerably better on defense. Yes, Dwight's offense is a little worse than Yao's because Yao can score more reliably.

Yao's team last year made the second round. The key contributors, other than himself, were Luis Scola, Ron Artest, Aaron Brooks, Von Wafer, Shane Battier, Carl Landry, Kyle Lowry and Chuck Hayes. Stop me when I get to a really good second star. Or was Artest's 47% playoff TS so scintillating that you really look at those 15.6 ppg he scored as a positive to the team? If Yao hadn't gone down 9 games into the playoffs, the Rockets might have beaten the Lakers, whom they took to 7 games anyhow.

Yeah, Dwight's amazing. He's one of my favorite players in the league right now. Yes, Dwight rebounds better and blocks more shots than Yao. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a more valuable player.

IMO, Yao's still an elite defender, a comparably efficient but more prolific scorer and still a good rebounder and that makes him better than Dwight. By a small margin, but a visible one.

[Rallyks]

How is Yao are superior center when he is worse at rebounding, worse at defense, and worse in raw ppg the last time both were healthy?

Yao > Dwight when healthy. you guys don't seem realize that a players overall impact goes far beyond 'numbers.'

Furthermore, the 04-05 to 06-07 Yao Ming had a 25/5/5 Tracy McGrady on his team. And a 27/7/7 player in the playoffs. If that can't get you out of the first round then I don't know what will. Most of all, Yao Ming is the one who blew game 7 in Utah. The Guy let the jazz get two offensive rebounds in the final minutes of game 7, which was the Rockets undoing in that series outside of their supporting cast. Ultimately Yao had 6rpg in game 6 and game 7 of that series. That type of production from a center against the lacks of Okur is pathetic. Don't even begin to blame that type of crap on coaching and teammates.

I agree, Yao was awful in a couple of those playoff games... but that was 4-5 years ago, and in my opinion, Yao of 08-09 > Yao 04-05 (unless you blindly look at his #'s)

and a couple of playoff gaffs, early in your career, doesn't suddenly make you a bad player.

but it's irrelevant, he lead the rockets to the 2nd round last year, with a 20 mill hole in their playoff roster.

[Kariya]

How is Yao are superior center when he is worse at rebounding, worse at defense, and worse in raw ppg the last time both were healthy?

The last time both players were healthy was last season... when Yao averaged 22 ppg... which is higher than Dwight's career-best seasonal scoring average. Come again?

Furthermore, the 04-05 to 06-07 Yao Ming had a 25/5/5 Tracy McGrady on his team. And a 27/7/7 player in the playoffs.

And in that time, T-Mac played 78, 47, 71, 66 and 35 games. He hasn't been healthy.

And behind them? You're talking a mix of Mutombo's re-animated corpse, Bob Sura, Mike James, Jon Barry, Juwan Howard... etc, etc.

People moaning about Yao's rebounding numbers need to remember he's 7'6... after a certain point, there are diminishing returns to rebounding where height is concerned because excessive height limits mobility.

Pro tip: of all the players 7'3+ or better that have played in the NBA/BAA or the ABA, there have been only 37 instances of a player recording a season of 7+ rpg over 50+ games.

We're looking at Mark Eaton, Arvydas Sabonis, Shawn Bradley, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Rik Smits, Yao, Gheorge Muresan and Ralph Sampson.

Now narrow it down to 9+. Yao has 3 of the 11 seasons recorded where a guy that big rebounded like that.

Mark Eaton wasn't any better a rebounder than Yao; Yao is in fact a better rebounder at both ends of the floor than Eaton, comparable to Ralph Sampson (the two guys who have most of those 11 seasons, 5 of them combined). Sabonis was a better defensive rebounder but worse on the offensive glass... and 2 or 3 inches shorter. Muresan was better on the offensive glass and a little worse on the defensive glass by rate, but peaked at 29.5 mpg and his career ended due to injury (like Sampson). Big Z is a much better offensive rebounder, much worse defensive rebounder, and 3 inches shorter.

Here's some fun: 50+ games, 7'5+, 9+ rpg? Yao's three seasons and Gheorge Muresan.

Quit complaining about his rebounding. Yes, it isn't as good as Dwight's. Yes, he's the best rebounder of his size the league has ever seen, and it relates to mobility.

Yes, Dwight gets more rebounds per game. No, he's not considerably better on defense. Yes, Dwight's offense is a little worse than Yao's because Yao can score more reliably.

Yao's team last year made the second round. The key contributors, other than himself, were Luis Scola, Ron Artest, Aaron Brooks, Von Wafer, Shane Battier, Carl Landry, Kyle Lowry and Chuck Hayes. Stop me when I get to a really good second star. Or was Artest's 47% playoff TS so scintillating that you really look at those 15.6 ppg he scored as a positive to the team? If Yao hadn't gone down 9 games into the playoffs, the Rockets might have beaten the Lakers, whom they took to 7 games anyhow.

Yeah, Dwight's amazing. He's one of my favorite players in the league right now. Yes, Dwight rebounds better and blocks more shots than Yao. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a more valuable player.

IMO, Yao's still an elite defender, a comparably efficient but more prolific scorer and still a good rebounder and that makes him better than Dwight. By a small margin, but a visible one.

Win

[NYK 455]

Yao is certainly not a bust. He's been a top 3 center his entire time in the league, at one point was considered the best center in the NBA. He's a former all-star, all-NBA player. He was the best player in his draft class. Kwame Brown is a bust. Adam Morrison is a bust. Darko Milicic is a bust. Yao Ming is far from a bust.

[Official]

The last time both players were healthy was last season... when Yao averaged 22 ppg... which is higher than Dwight's career-best seasonal scoring average. Come again?

Last Season Yao averaged 19.7ppg. Obviously, a mistake on your part.

People moaning about Yao's rebounding numbers need to remember he's 7'6... after a certain point, there are diminishing returns to rebounding where height is concerned because excessive height limits mobility.

Pro tip: of all the players 7'3+ or better that have played in the NBA/BAA or the ABA, there have been only 37 instances of a player recording a season of 7+ rpg over 50+ games.

We're looking at Mark Eaton, Arvydas Sabonis, Shawn Bradley, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Rik Smits, Yao, Gheorge Muresan and Ralph Sampson.

Now narrow it down to 9+. Yao has 3 of the 11 seasons recorded where a guy that big rebounded like that.

Mark Eaton wasn't any better a rebounder than Yao; Yao is in fact a better rebounder at both ends of the floor than Eaton, comparable to Ralph Sampson (the two guys who have most of those 11 seasons, 5 of them combined). Sabonis was a better defensive rebounder but worse on the offensive glass... and 2 or 3 inches shorter. Muresan was better on the offensive glass and a little worse on the defensive glass by rate, but peaked at 29.5 mpg and his career ended due to injury (like Sampson). Big Z is a much better offensive rebounder, much worse defensive rebounder, and 3 inches shorter.

Here's some fun: 50+ games, 7'5+, 9+ rpg? Yao's three seasons and Gheorge Muresan.

Quit complaining about his rebounding. Yes, it isn't as good as Dwight's. Yes, he's the best rebounder of his size the league has ever seen, and it relates to mobility.

What does this have to do with anything? Yao is a good rebounder for his height; however we are not comparing him against Big Z, Sabonis, Eaton, and whoever else. This is between Howard and Yao. And Howard is vastly better rebounder, Howard is an all time great defender. This is significant. It is a centers job to rebound the ball and dominate the paint. This is something Yao has failed to do during the regular season and in huge playoff games.

Dwight Howard's rebounding surpasses anything Yao brings to the table.

1) Howard is the first player in NBA history to lead the league in TOTAL REBOUNDS for 5 consecutive seasons.

2) Howard joins the company of Kevin Garnett, Dennis Rodman, Moses Malone, Bill Russell, and Wilt as the only players to lead the league in RPG for 3 consecutive seasons.

Advanced Statistics

1) Howard has the third highest career TRB% of all time. (behind Rodman and Swen Nater)
2) Howard has the highest career playoff TRB% of all time.
3) Howard has the 4th highest career DRB% of all time. (behind Rodman, Walton, and Nater)
4) Howard has the highest career playoff DRB% of all time.
5) Howard has the 13th highest career RPG of all time.
6) Howard has the 3rd highest career playoff RPG of all time. (behind Wilt and Russell)

Yao's team last year made the second round. The key contributors, other than himself, were Luis Scola, Ron Artest, Aaron Brooks, Von Wafer, Shane Battier, Carl Landry, Kyle Lowry and Chuck Hayes. Stop me when I get to a really good second star. Or was Artest's 47% playoff TS so scintillating that you really look at those 15.6 ppg he scored as a positive to the team? If Yao hadn't gone down 9 games into the playoffs, the Rockets might have beaten the Lakers, whom they took to 7 games anyhow.

Yao averaged 17/11 in the 08-09 playoffs. He had plenty of help as you noted. Was it a championship caliber supporting cast? Probably not. I'd love to hear peoples opinions on Brooks vs Rafer, Artest vs Hedo, Scola vs Rashard, Lee vs Battier, Landry vs Pietrus, and Lowry vs AJ this year. Unless all these Rockets players got significantly better in the span of one year and all the Magic players from last year got worse in the span of one year. Don't sell that Rockets supporting cast too short.

IMO, Yao's still an elite defender, a comparably efficient but more prolific scorer and still a good rebounder and that makes him better than Dwight. By a small margin, but a visible one.

How is Yao a more prolific scorer? He averaged less ppg in the 08-09 regular season and 08-09 playoffs. Yao has never made an all defensive team and has never been in consideration for DPOY; he is not in the same league as Howard defensively. Yao is not a better center by any margin.

[rottenzombie]

this thread screams racism

Nah, more like everyday American xenophobia, in its milder form too.

[azuresou1]

Official, your homerism has blinded you and gouged out your objectivity. You can make a case for Dwight being better, but CLEARLY better? No.

- Yao scored 0.9 PPG less on .02% better TS. They are for all intents and purposes equivalently effective at scoring at this point in their careers.
- Yao is a better passer, as evidenced by his AST%
- Dwight is pretty clearly the better rebounder
- Yao plays much better post defense than Dwight. Dwight was a better help defender last year, but their career BLK% are equivalent.
- Yao has a more refined post game, as well as an excellent set shot out to 18 feet, and is one of the best FT shooters in the game. This means you can not only play him in close late game situations, but also that it is harder to shut him down. Yao has had a 25 PPG season, Dwight hasn't broken 21 PPG yet for his career.

PS: Did you miss the part where Yao played part of the playoffs last year with a fractured foot, dragging down his stats?

I'd obviously take Dwight over Yao from a franchise perspective since he's way younger and healthy, but for a single game I'd have to consider Yao vs Dwight.

[Official]

And please don't ever mention Yao in the same breath as Howard defensively, the rockets used to take the guy out on defense in the closing minutes of games.

And Yao Ming is not a great late game scorer, it is too easy to deny him the ball.

[Kariya]

And please don't ever mention Yao in the same breath as Howard defensively, the rockets used to take the guy out on defense in the closing minutes of games.

Look at how the Rockets have ranked defensively with Yao in their line up.

Now look at them this year.

[Official]

Why did they take Yao out in the late game situations on defense then? The rockets change in defense has a lot to do with JVG's defensive mentality slowly leaving the Rockets as it does with Yao Ming stepping out of the lineup. Also the introduction of Brooks and Martin didn't help causes either. Ultimately, the rockets completely gave up on defense in the second half of the season. Don't get me wrong, Yao will make them better defensively but I guarantee they won't be a top 5 defense next year.

[tsherkin]

Last Season Yao averaged 19.7ppg. Obviously, a mistake on your part.

You are correct, my bad. Even still, that was coming on a four-year low in terms of FGA/g and it is still better than what Dwight's pulling off today (and the reason Dwight's scoring has dipped is much the same). It's functionally true that Yao's shooting makes him a more universally dangerous offensive weapon throughout the shot-clock and in the playoffs. He can establish mediocre position and then just turn and shoot, or he can just set up away from the rim and do the same. And he still shoots noticeably above 50% from the floor in so doing.

What does this have to do with anything? Yao is a good rebounder for his height; however we are not comparing him against Big Z, Sabonis, Eaton, and whoever else. This is between Howard and Yao. And Howard is vastly better rebounder, Howard is an all time great defender. This is significant. It is a centers job to rebound the ball and dominate the paint. This is something Yao has failed to do during the regular season and in huge playoff games.

This was less directed at you so much as everyone who complains about Yao's rebounding in general. He's the best rebounder of his size the league's seen. People penalize him for not being a 12 rpg player, but it just doesn't work that way for a guy that size.

Yao averaged 17/11 in the 08-09 playoffs. He had plenty of help as you noted. Was it a championship caliber supporting cast? Probably not. I'd love to hear peoples opinions on Brooks vs Rafer, Artest vs Hedo, Scola vs Rashard, Lee vs Battier, Landry vs Pietrus, and Lowry vs AJ this year. Unless all these Rockets players got significantly better in the span of one year and all the Magic players from last year got worse in the span of one year. Don't sell that Rockets supporting cast too short.

You call that crap "plenty of help?"

Ron Artest's TS% was 47%... he was STAGGERINGLY inefficient. Scola was reasonable. Aaron Brooks was pretty solid. Battier didn't score very much but made the most of his opportunities.

How is Yao a more prolific scorer

Generally by scoring more than Dwight... Yes, in the instance of 08-09 he didn't do it, but the previous three seasons he did, and by a noticeable margin, too. Granted, small sample size, but over 160 games of Yao playing, he was scoring in excess of 22 ppg the entire time, so it's not exactly deception.

Yao has never made an all defensive team and has never been in consideration for DPOY; he is not in the same league as Howard defensively. Yao is not a better center by any margin.

He's not been qualified for an All-Defensive team because he's been injured; that argument isn't especially meaningful.

[Official]

I have a question. Several days ago you said Dwight Howard is a better offensive player than Chris Bosh, yet you believe Yao Ming is a better offensive player than Dwight Howard? Really? I'd love to hear the reasoning because you found Bosh's prolific scoring ability unimportant in that thread. You even suggested that Dwight Howard and Dirk are comparable as offensive players.

[USA]

I don't consider him a bust but he has been very disappointing for a 7'6" guy that was 'supposed' to be the 'next big thing'.

[CRACKSMATIC]

Yao isnt a bust, when he is healthy the guy is a beast... he most likely wont live up to the hype of him being the next great center (when he came into the league) but hes played pretty well for the rockets over the years.

Guys that are busts are Olawalikandi, Lafrentz, Millic and Kwame Brown

[MSGBallerz]

Hes the best center in the post prime Shaq era. He's not a bust.

[tsherkin]

I have a question. Several days ago you said Dwight Howard is a better offensive player than Chris Bosh, yet you believe Yao Ming is a better offensive player than Dwight Howard? Really? I'd love to hear the reasoning because you found Bosh's prolific scoring ability unimportant in that thread. You even suggested that Dwight Howard and Dirk are comparable as offensive players.

I generally find that Yao fades a lot less frequently than Dwight. It's easier to take Bosh out of his game than it is Yao. Yao, if you can get him the ball, will turn and hit a J just fine. He can have a banged up knee and do that. Bosh is entirely about athleticism and mid-range jumpers. Yao is comparably efficient (generally slightly MORE efficient, actually), and similarly prolific to Bosh (with a higher proven peak given what he showed two years ago), but he's also a low-post guy of much greater utility than Bosh.

Chris is extremely dependent on 20-footers and his first step. There isn't a lot of in-between with him. Yao's a more dependable scoring weapon, which is why I consider him more valuable. Furthermore, he's ranked higher in ORTG than Bosh most years. He hasn't peaked as high, sure, but he's more reliable.

Meantime, Bosh this year is having a lights-out year. As I said in that thread, if Bosh were to stay playing like he did pre-injury this year, you're talking about a guy who compares to Dirk and who may well be as good as or slightly better than Howard... but it's an outlier season for him. Yao's produced a fairly steady series of seasons showing what he can do offensively given the touches.

[Miklo]

I don't consider him a bust but he has been very disappointing for a 7'6" guy that was 'supposed' to be the 'next big thing'.

I'm just disappointed because they said he was gonna be draining 3's and a 7'6 guy draining 3's, well that's awesome

[Sedale Threatt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSfBRAIT4eg&feature=fvst