Better (short term) future: Bulls or Knicks?

[panthermark]

I think an even better poll would be:
Should the Knicks wait for a chance at CP3 in 2012 or fill in the gaps right now?

The Knicks can have a super team in 2013 and 2014 if everything goes right. But the 2011 Knicks simply don't have the depth, defense, or rebounding to be a true title threat....and without taking on salary, there really isn't a way to fix it.

The talk of Fields as in interesting situation because the Knicks may have to let him walk. He'll be a restricted FA next year....but if any team puts even a modest offer out there for him (3 years, $9M or so), that will become a cap hold and cut directly into the Knicks cap room. Assuming there is still an MLE, any team can use part of it to frontload a deal ($3.3M, $3.0M, $2.7M) and jam up the Knicks. Unless Fields has an awful year, there is no way NY lets him walk for a 3 year, $9M deal without matching....but..if on the books for $3.3M, while Stat and Melo combine for $39.4M, and Shumpert is at $1.4M, that is $44.1M prior to capholds for the open roster spots (another $3-$4M depending on the CBA)....and that is assuming Douglas and Rautins are moved and there are no holds for draft picks. Knicks should consider themselves lucky if they are sitting at $47M next summer. I think Douglas, Rautins, and whatever picks there are can be S&T'd for Paul....even if the cap stays exactly where it is at, you are still hoping Paul takes a pretty big pay-cut (and turns down his $17.8M option). Best thing for the Knicks would be to convince N.O. to trade Paul at the deadline for Billups, Fields, and Douglas...that way NO could use the MLE to add players in 2012. But there are a lot of teams that could trump that offer. I don't know...

[jax98]

I'm glad to see things have cooled down, but if one more insult is issued, this thread will be closed. Thanks to those who stick to the topic at hand.

[koogiking]

I think an even better poll would be:
Should the Knicks wait for a chance at CP3 in 2012 or fill in the gaps right now?

The Knicks can have a super team in 2013 and 2014 if everything goes right. But the 2011 Knicks simply don't have the depth, defense, or rebounding to be a true title threat....and without taking on salary, there really isn't a way to fix it.

The talk of Fields as in interesting situation because the Knicks may have to let him walk. He'll be a restricted FA next year....but if any team puts even a modest offer out there for him (3 years, $9M or so), that will become a cap hold and cut directly into the Knicks cap room. Assuming there is still an MLE, any team can use part of it to frontload a deal ($3.3M, $3.0M, $2.7M) and jam up the Knicks. Unless Fields has an awful year, there is no way NY lets him walk for a 3 year, $9M deal without matching....but..if on the books for $3.3M, while Stat and Melo combine for $39.4M, and Shumpert is at $1.4M, that is $44.1M prior to capholds for the open roster spots (another $3-$4M depending on the CBA)....and that is assuming Douglas and Rautins are moved and there are no holds for draft picks. Knicks should consider themselves lucky if they are sitting at $47M next summer. I think Douglas, Rautins, and whatever picks there are can be S&T'd for Paul....even if the cap stays exactly where it is at, you are still hoping Paul takes a pretty big pay-cut (and turns down his $17.8M option). Best thing for the Knicks would be to convince N.O. to trade Paul at the deadline for Billups, Fields, and Douglas...that way NO could use the MLE to add players in 2012. But there are a lot of teams that could trump that offer. I don't know...

I don't even think about CP3 that much since there is no way to know if it is even possible to sign him.

I do feel that if CP3 does come to the Knicks, the Knicks will be the best team in the NBA. It's possible that he can come to the Knicks, but I'm not sure how likely. If the cap is the 62 million flex cap that David Stern proposed, the Knicks should be able to sign CP3 and extra role players since max contracts are planned to be cut.

If the cap is the proposed 45 million dollar hard cap then the Knicks can still maybe sign CP3 since there is supposedly a 33% slash in all salaries in the hard cap proposal.

I'm sure that if the Knicks have a chance to sign CP3, they won't pass that chance up just for Landry Fields though. If it were me, I'd release all of those players cap holds and lose them for nothing if we could sign CP3.

But the new CBA can have anything so it's hard to tell. Billups is good enough to fill the PG position though. The Knicks don't need another star There are many options, The 2012 free agency class is really deep, the Knicks can always go after guys like Raymond Felton, or Steve Nash or Andre Miller to address the PG position if they need to. Thats why it's much smarter to wait until 2012. Not just because of D-will, CP3 and Dwight Howard, but also because there are more options with role players and complimentary players. If it's possible to get superstar though, then you have to do it. If it's not possible, then it's not the end of the world, there are many players available to help the team out.

[boyz2knicks]

why the knicks are in a better position. first because, bulls FO believes that defense wins championships when its not true. For the past 10 years, the average ranks of defensive and off ratings of the champions are 5 for def and 7 for off. If you remove detroit coz we all knew that kobe lost that game due to him trying to win the finals mvp. then the average would become 5.4 for def and 6 for off.

Now why i think bulls FO is wrong. its because i believe defense is the cause of injuries. its like the using of the demon fox by naruto in the anime titled naruto. its give you additional power but the side effect of it is to shorten naruto's life. its the same with defense. it makes your team better but the side effects of it are injuries so it should not be used every minute of a game. as much as possible, use it only during crucial moments like playoffs or facing top teams.

thats the real meaning of "offense wins games but defense wins championships." thus implying that there is already an offensive system in place and all they need is to incorporate defensive schemes. and that offense alone can take you to the conference finals(like the suns) and in order to win the next 7 games(finals)you need defense and if you only play defense for 7 games, the lesser the chance of injuries to your players.now the bulls are doomed coz they got another scott skiles. they got a defensive coach with no offense and in just their first season, alot of injuries happened to their players and players are already leaking information about them not liking the coach. and thats what i like about dantoni, he doesnt force players to play defense coz he knows playing defense can end the careers of its players. thats what happened to tmac and yao. dantoni and the players only play defense on crucial times like playoffs and facing top teams. thats why we defended well against miami, chicago and other playoffs teams.

[boyz2knicks]

and this game is all about having the most unstoppable players and not the players with the best stats. and we got amare and melo who are the most unstoppable players in the league while boozer can be stopped easily without a pg. and i never thought that this guy is undersized. i thought his 6'11 and they got rose who among the scorers is the easiest to stop as evidence by his 35% FG in the playoffs. thats why no team has won with a score first pg because they are the easiest to stop along with minimal impact on defense due to height

[boyz2knicks]

and btw, those dantoni suns were not just healthy but that system also made grant hill and shaq healthy. but instead the doctors were credited for it and not dantoni's system

[Mk0]

boyz2knicks is my new favorite poster. NBA = Anime obviously.

[orangeparka]

Knicks IMO.

[panthermark]

and btw, those dantoni suns were not just healthy but that system also made grant hill and shaq healthy. but instead the doctors were credited for it and not dantoni's system

This is so sig worthy...

[JerkyWay]

Bulls, because the Knicks doesn't have anything apart from two borderline superstars (with no defense, that's important). They'll have to do an amazing job to find proper role players (and a star to replace Billups, most likely), and hire an adequate coach. Suns were fairly successful because they had Marion who was nearly DPOY level player. Knicks dont't have anyone like him. Nash is also more valuable player than Melo, by far. Of course, you can win with Melo, but it takes better management.
The Bulls are almost finished product, they just need Hamilton/Carter to be a complete team. They're much closer to beat the Heat than Knicks are.

[cool007]

while boozer can be stopped easily without a pg. and i never thought that this guy is undersized. i thought his 6'11

Boozer is 6'11"??? since when did he grow another 3" this late in his 20s??? Boozer is 6'8" at best. He does have a wide body and he is pretty strong.

and they got rose who among the scorers is the easiest to stop as evidence by his 35% FG in the playoffs.

Huh what??? I won't dispute that Rose didn't shoot well in the playoffs especially after spraining his ankle a couple of times but where did 35% fg come from??? Even after that horrible series vs Miami, he still shot about 40% for the entire Playoffs.

He was basically 29ppg close to 5rpg and 8+apg before the series vs Heat on 44%fg. How was he stoppable then? Even with bum ankle.

thats why no team has won with a score first pg because they are the easiest to stop along with minimal impact on defense due to height

This again??? Billups and Tony Parker have always been a score/shoot first PGs and they both won the Finals MVP. So that theory about score first pg don't win is a total whack.

[panthermark]

I'm tired of the score first PG stuff.....

It isn't that a score first PG can't win a title (as stated above, both Parker and Billup have Finals MVP's)....

It is that a score first PG can't be the teams ONLY player that can create his own shot....thus leading to teams cutting the head off the snake defensive approach.


As an FYI:
Magic Johnson once lead his team in scoring and shot attempts.....and managed to win a ring that season...along with Finals MVP.

Isiah Thomas basically did it twice....winning the Finals MVP once.

I know those two guys are not score first PG's....but they led their teams to a title while also being the leading scorers on their teams and also Finals MVP's....

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

and btw, those dantoni suns were not just healthy but that system also made grant hill and shaq healthy. but instead the doctors were credited for it and not dantoni's system

This is so sig worthy...

[boyz2knicks]

and btw, those dantoni suns were not just healthy but that system also made grant hill and shaq healthy. but instead the doctors were credited for it and not dantoni's system

This is so sig worthy...

umm. that will be a sig worthy for now but later on, youll be regretting having thibs when rose gets injured like what happened to yao and tmac

[boyz2knicks]

I'm tired of the score first PG stuff.....

It isn't that a score first PG can't win a title (as stated above, both Parker and Billup have Finals MVP's)....

It is that a score first PG can't be the teams ONLY player that can create his own shot....thus leading to teams cutting the head off the snake defensive approach.


As an FYI:
Magic Johnson once lead his team in scoring and shot attempts.....and managed to win a ring that season...along with Finals MVP.

Isiah Thomas basically did it twice....winning the Finals MVP once.

I know those two guys are not score first PG's....but they led their teams to a title while also being the leading scorers on their teams and also Finals MVP's....

i dont get why people value finals mvp so much. its just for 4 games. and thats the only thing score first pgs has won. score first pgs hasnt won a regular season mvp and at the same time winning the championship. among the scorers, they are the easiest to stop. if not for those gifted free throws, rose would be so inefficient in the playoffs. why it is hard to think that the shorter you are, the easier you are to defend.

[babycry14]

boyz2knicks is my new favorite poster. NBA = Anime obviously.

mine too

[BJ43]

So this thread consists of Knicks fans picking the Knicks and everyone else the Bulls? Then the Knicks fans bashing everyone who doesn't agree with their view?

New York is back! Think you'd guys become a little humble after blowing the 2000s.

actually im not a Knicks fan.... yet I picked them i hate both these teams though LOL your so wrong in every way.

If YOU'RE going to tell someone they're wrong about something, or in YOUR case everything, maybe try using the correct words yourself?

[panthermark]

i dont get why people value finals mvp so much. its just for 4 games. and thats the only thing score first pgs has won. score first pgs hasnt won a regular season mvp and at the same time winning the championship. among the scorers, they are the easiest to stop. if not for those gifted free throws, rose would be so inefficient in the playoffs. why it is hard to think that the shorter you are, the easier you are to defend.

If you are lurking....the number of players that have managed to win both the regular season MVP and a title in the same year is fairly limited.....basically it is a who's who of all time greats.
Duncan
Shaq
MJ
Dream
Magic
Bird
M Malone
Jabbar

Is it (usually) easier to guard shorter players? Yes..but that isnt' the main issue. And that gets back to my point of a team needing more than one player that can create his own shot. Swap Carlos Boozer for Chris Bosh....and even if the Bulls (foolishly IMO) go after J-Rich over JR Smith (Smith can get his own shot a bit better), the ability of that second player (Bosh) to get his own shot consistently....changes the dynamics of the team quite a bit.

People say Rose is a SG.
That isn't true. What IS true is that he has the talent level to carry a team...but he can't do it alone if he is doing it from the PG position on a team where no one else can get their own shots.