WT: NBA Files Suit Against NBPA

[DuckIII]

Currently the NBA's accounting shows it to be unprofitable, which like you said is because of the method theyre using, not because they actually are unprofitable.

I don't think that is quite right. The players have conceded that the owners are, on the whole, losing money. The reason they offered to give back $100 million per year over the next 5 years was in recognition of the owners' lost profits.

The players don't dispute that the NBA - for the owners, not them (they are HUGELY profitable) - is not a profitable business. The dispute arises as to the extent to which it is unprofitable, and that is where the accounting methodologies come into play.

[40InchVert]

Unlike the NFL, the NBA owners aren't in a rush to get the season starting. If I am interpreting the situation correctly, only the big market teams and maybe a couple other team are actually profitable. I am not aware of the method they use to calculate profitability in terms of what is included in the calculation. If this is the case, we may see an extremely long lockout if the NBAPA doesn't soften up their stance.

The NBAPA using the overseas option as leverage is a desperate attempt to take some bargaining power away from the owners. I find it hard to believe that a significant amount of players are actually considering this option when factoring in the change of lifestyle for at the bare minimum a couple months.

Ultimately, I think the lockout ends when the lower payed players cave in to the demands of the owners due to financial reasons. As another poster pointed out above, some players live paycheck to paycheck. It is easy for the stars of the league to hold out on the deal since they get paid an astronomical amount every year in salaries and endorsements. The number of lower paid players out number the higher paid players and with their lifestyle, many of these guys will realize that their bank accounts are running low.

[DuckIII]

Ultimately, I think the lockout ends when the lower payed players cave in to the demands of the owners due to financial reasons. As another poster pointed out above, some players live paycheck to paycheck. It is easy for the stars of the league to hold out on the deal since they get paid an astronomical amount every year in salaries and endorsements. The number of lower paid players out number the higher paid players and with their lifestyle, many of these guys will realize that their bank accounts are running low.

I would be shocked if you are wrong about this. On the Bulls board the other day a few of us came up with the following prediction:

(1) In September, the owners will concede some things and will make a "final" offer to save the season. Despite the concessions, the owners' proposal will still include a signifcant shift in the BRI split as opposed to the modest one the players have offered.

(2) The players, believing (hoping) they have leverage and/or that the owners don't have the resolve to risk the season coming off of one so popular, will reject the proposal.

(3) Games will start being lost/paychecks will cease.

(4) With the financial pressure actually being brought to bear (most NBA players don't start getting paychecks until October), the owners' offers will actually get worse, not better.

(5) In January, the players will fold and accept a deal worse than the one they rejected in September.

[killbuckner]

For people who think that decertification voids all deals- please tell me why you think it would be different for the NFL where the players have now decertified twice and neither times did any contracts get voided.

[killbuckner]

Ultimately, I think the lockout ends when the lower payed players cave in to the demands of the owners due to financial reasons. As another poster pointed out above, some players live paycheck to paycheck. It is easy for the stars of the league to hold out on the deal since they get paid an astronomical amount every year in salaries and endorsements. The number of lower paid players out number the higher paid players and with their lifestyle, many of these guys will realize that their bank accounts are running low.

I think you are wrong. I think how it will go is that the NBA players will decertify which makes the lockout illegal. The courts may rule that they are not allowed to stop the lockout without it going to trial (this is what happened with the NFL) but any paychecks the players miss would be paid out in TRIPLE damages once it went to trial. So just like in the NFL, once the owners are faced with paying triple damages then they will stop making ridiculous demands and will actually make a real offer.

I still think the NBA players may be better off giving up on a union all together. The Salary cap, Luxury tax, maximum contract length, and maximum salary would all be highly illegal once the union decertifies.

[vincecarter4pres]

This is just getting uglier by the minute.

Even if this doesn't take that long it's going to cut the season down to 50 games max in all likelihood.

NFL negotiations were relatively swift in all actuality and they had a longer period to work with before actual regular season games were in jeopardy.

All this was expected and is only the tip of the iceberg but it's sucks to see it become reality.

[40InchVert]

Ultimately, I think the lockout ends when the lower payed players cave in to the demands of the owners due to financial reasons. As another poster pointed out above, some players live paycheck to paycheck. It is easy for the stars of the league to hold out on the deal since they get paid an astronomical amount every year in salaries and endorsements. The number of lower paid players out number the higher paid players and with their lifestyle, many of these guys will realize that their bank accounts are running low.

I think you are wrong. I think how it will go is that the NBA players will decertify which makes the lockout illegal. The courts may rule that they are not allowed to stop the lockout without it going to trial (this is what happened with the NFL) but any paychecks the players miss would be paid out in TRIPLE damages once it went to trial. So just like in the NFL, once the owners are faced with paying triple damages then they will stop making ridiculous demands and will actually make a real offer.

I still think the NBA players may be better off giving up on a union all together. The Salary cap, Luxury tax, maximum contract length, and maximum salary would all be highly illegal once the union decertifies.

If the numbers that Stern and the owners are claiming are true, there is no way the court will hand out punitive damages that serious. There is a big difference between the NBA and NFL, NFL makes a ridiculous amount of cash, so the courts actually knew that any damages the league had to pay could be paid.

[Parataxis]

For people who think that decertification voids all deals- please tell me why you think it would be different for the NFL where the players have now decertified twice and neither times did any contracts get voided.

Actually, it's fairly clear that they didn't decertify - the courts didn't end up getting to rule on the validity of the decertification because they reached a settlement.

But what we do know, is that despite 'decertifying', they still had a union structure, negotiated as a unit and - most tellingly of all - didn't have a recertification vote.

So there's two possibilities - either they still don't have a players' union, or they never actually decertified. I think it's pretty clear that it was just a legal fiction for negotiating purposes, and that the courts would have decided as such.

[killbuckner]

If the numbers that Stern and the owners are claiming are true, there is no way the court will hand out punitive damages that serious. There is a big difference between the NBA and NFL, NFL makes a ridiculous amount of cash, so the courts actually knew that any damages the league had to pay could be paid.

The NBA would be engaging in something totally illegal- locking out employees who are not part of a union is 100% by the rules illegal and triple damages are the remedy by the law.

[killbuckner]

Parataxis- as long as the players are giving up the ability to strike and protections like that then the decertification would be held up as legitimate. It doesn't matter that the trade association continued- thats totally allowed. The only time the decertification would be said to be a sham would be if the NFL owners were allowed to put in the rules they want and then the players still went on strike even though they didn't have a union anymore.

Instead what the players would do is to file another lawsuyite against the new rules- all the things the NBA wants (Salary cap, luxury tax, draft, max salary, and max contract length) would be highly illegal without a union and once again the players would get triple damages for anything money the owners saved.

In the end the owners need to give the players a good enough deal that they think its in their best interest to be in a union in order to accept all the restrictions the owners want. The players being willing to listen to the owners offer is not at all a problem even in absence of a union.

[killbuckner]

But what we do know, is that despite 'decertifying', they still had a union structure, negotiated as a unit and - most tellingly of all - didn't have a recertification vote.

The palyers are going through a recertification vote. The CBA is conditioned on the players recertifying the union.

[Parataxis]

But what we do know, is that despite 'decertifying', they still had a union structure, negotiated as a unit and - most tellingly of all - didn't have a recertification vote.

The palyers are going through a recertification vote. The CBA is conditioned on the players recertifying the union.

Do you have a source for that? Everything I've read in the papers says that the union and the NFL have reached an agreement.

[killbuckner]

They have reached a tentative agreement. The players are currently recertifying- here is an article talking about how the bengals have recertified. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/re ... story.html

[Parataxis]

Interesting, thanks!

[craig01]

I think it is important for fans to show support for the players, even if we believe they should have lowered salaries (they admitted as much themselves). They are not the ones causing the lock-out, and any freedom loving American should stand up in favor of the workers rather than the owners. The owners have enough inherent privileges, if we do not protect the employee's then they get stuck holding the sh*tty end of the stick.

But this isn't a pipe fitters union.

This is the NBA, but they aren't regular working class rank and file members.....where their per Diem is higher than a lot of folks daily wages.

Meanwhile parking is 20 bucks, a beer is 7 bucks, a watery fountain drink is 4 bucks, and tickets in the nosebleeds are 15 bucks.

If the owners are in fact losing money, then this will be a long and ugly lock out.

Time will tell as far as the outcome of the dispute, but the real losers are the players and the league itself. They'll lose wages that they'll never regain, and owners will lose revenue created from the absence of many casual fans in the short term.

The majority of America won't care if there is no NBA for a while, and probably will take a while for them to return to the game if and when the dispute is settled.

[Dr Pepper]

I think it is important for fans to show support for the players, even if we believe they should have lowered salaries (they admitted as much themselves). They are not the ones causing the lock-out, and any freedom loving American should stand up in favor of the workers rather than the owners. The owners have enough inherent privileges, if we do not protect the employee's then they get stuck holding the sh*tty end of the stick.

But this isn't a pipe fitters union.

This is the NBA, but they aren't regular working class rank and file members.....where their per Diem is higher than a lot of folks daily wages.

Meanwhile parking is 20 bucks, a beer is 7 bucks, a watery fountain drink is 4 bucks, and tickets in the nosebleeds are 15 bucks.

If the owners are in fact losing money, then this will be a long and ugly lock out.

Time will tell as far as the outcome of the dispute, but the real losers are the players and the league itself. They'll lose wages that they'll never regain, and owners will lose revenue created from the absence of many casual fans in the short term.

The majority of America won't care if there is no NBA for a while, and probably will take a while for them to return to the game if and when the dispute is settled.

In addition to the players and the league I think the biggest losers are the working class that support and depend on the NBA and its teams. And those parking and concession prices are outrageous but unfortunately thats more of the norm nowadays throughout a lot of entertainment venues such as a movie theater, bar, or live show

[Mamba Venom]

David Stern was REALLY worried that the players had the leverage. So he hit them with a preemptive strike.

I would hope the NBA players association would say, we will get a deal done but the commissioner has to be changed. I can't work for someone who just sued me.

David Stern being a jackass.

[Mamba Venom]

By the way, here is what I wish Fisher would say.

We have 30 teams, lets compare them to a retail store. The NBA is saying that the stores can't make enough $ because it is paying too much for the product.

But if the product were too expensive than none of the stores could make any money. But most of the stores do make $. So the problem isn't with the price of the product. It is with the store location.

Now I love all the cities where there are stores. I love New Orleans for example. But if the store cannot make $ in New Orleans, I don't see why someone would be willing to lose millions of dollars each year just to put a store there. You could move that store to many other places and it would make money.

So the NBA business model is broken because of where the locations are. The cost of the product is not broken. The NBA needs to either move the stores that are losing $ to better location or share $ from its locations where business is booming. The product, the game (played by the players) actually has never been more marketable.

[Cultness]

Just when the NBA is starting to get near the gap the NFL has set, they are going to have a lock-out. While the NFL has settled the "lockout" and a season is pretty much guaranteed. NBA or not, I still get to see another season of Revis Island.

[Azsports77]

When The lockout ends the only fans that will return immediately are fans of the Lakers , Celtics, The miami Heat if you can call the people that pay to see them play are fans, Some Knicks fans and some die hard fans but that's it. The rest will not come back for a long time because you have two greedy groups the players and the owners and everyone knew the NBA's Lockout would be worse because of how greedy they are. I am looking forward to watching some football and if the NBA allows themselves too lose a season I will find another way to use my time and I won't be one of the fans that returns right away because I feel the quality of the game has become so low that what the players and owners are fighting over they really don't deserve and that's a fact with the exception of players like Kobe and a few others the rest don't deserve what they are making .
The fact that they lockout over a league that is so watered down you could make a claim that some are simply their to allow players to get the game down and then they jump ship to go to a playoff team that's what some of these teams have become. Its the owners fault for having a lousy GM but its also the players fault because instead of earning a championship they want the easy way like Lebron who is finding out that its not so simple but anyone who thinks he won't win one with Miami is a fool . So yeah I think if the NBA doesn't come to an agreement before the beginning of the season to avoid losing any games like the NFL has done they stand to lose a lot more than they currently believe they will lose and that is something they should be terrified about the fact they are not shows me they deserve whatever happens .