Best defender under 6'4

[tsherkin]

seriously? with all the great offensive point guards in the league today, point guard defense is extremely important...even more so if you don't have a rim protecting center.

And even still, the first defender is still the least useful. You are basically guaranteed to get past the first defender as an NBA-level scorer, it's the help defense that makes the difference. They don't have nearly the same overall impact on a team's defense as can be found at other positions. They also typically aren't valuable as shot blockers, defensive rebounders, etc. They have a very narrow defensive utility. Individual offense tends to trump individual man defense.

[Basileus777]

Broad generalizations about PG defense don't mean much when you are specifically talking about all time great defenders at the position. You can't use that argument to discount the huge impact guys like Kidd and Payton had on their team defenses.

Calling PG defense irrelevant in this sort of discussion is just lazy analysis. No one would say passing is more important for guards, so it doesn't matter how good of a playmaker Kevin Garnett was.

[Mourning_Would]

Wade is neither 6'4'' or really in the conversation. I've seen him at his camp and he's like 6'3. He's the best help defender under 6'4'', but hes not committed man-to-man. He has played Kobe very well recently though.

[kobyz]

all time - Eric Snow, and i'm serious!!

[Rerisen]

Mookie Blaylock was really good, and legitimately under the height required.

[smith2373]

Gary Payton.

[ManualRam]

alvin robertson
joe d

[Grits n Gravy]

seriously? with all the great offensive point guards in the league today, point guard defense is extremely important...even more so if you don't have a rim protecting center.

And even still, the first defender is still the least useful. You are basically guaranteed to get past the first defender as an NBA-level scorer, it's the help defense that makes the difference. They don't have nearly the same overall impact on a team's defense as can be found at other positions. They also typically aren't valuable as shot blockers, defensive rebounders, etc. They have a very narrow defensive utility. Individual offense tends to trump individual man defense.

so steve nash effectively is as valuable on the defensive end as rondo? however i agree that individual offense beats individual defense

[og15]

Wade is neither 6'4'' or really in the conversation. I've seen him at his camp and he's like 6'3. He's the best help defender under 6'4'', but hes not committed man-to-man. He has played Kobe very well recently though.

Wade is at least 6'4, he's definitely not 6'3.

Lindsey Hunter deserves a mention, though not as the "best ever".

Also, about PG defense, I don't agree that "it is almost guaranteed that the first defender gets beat". That is too much of a generalization and not truly accurate. Now there's some truth hiding in what is being said (offensive players generally have an advantage), but it's not the whole truth. In addition, it almost makes the assumption that the point of attack is always coming from the PG spot, and that isn't true. PG's can be valuable to their teams defense with help defense (taking charges, rotating properly, double teaming and getting steals, and even helping out on the glass), good man to man defense to actually force players to the correct spots for the help, and by being very vocal defensive players.

There are PG's who big men (or any player turning their back to an opponent) are always wary of in the post. They don't know when this guy might sneak in and poke the ball from them, and it affects how they play if that player is on their side.

So PG defense isn't generally going to be DPOY worthy (unless it is a big PG) because your PG can usually only guard on position, but almost making it seem irrelevant is a little too much. It can actually be quite important.

[Wizenheimer]

Mookie Blaylock was really good, and legitimately under the height required.

mookie was really good

So was Gary Payton

Lionel Hollins was probably as good as Blalock

TR Dunn was excellent as well, although he might have been 6'4

and since you're a Bulls fan, I'm surprised you didn't mention Norm Van Lier

Don Buse was excellent. He'd get my vote. And he was named 1st team all-defense 6 times so he got other votes then mine

[tsherkin]

so steve nash effectively is as valuable on the defensive end as rondo? however i agree that individual offense beats individual defense

No, that would be a ridiculous assertion to make. We're talking about the position as a whole. Obviously, an individual defender at a position can be better than another. Rondo is a better defender than Nash. Steve Nash, however, is so much better than Rondo on offense that it doesn't matter a little. You wouldn't DARE do to Nash what Kobe did to Rondo in the 2010 Finals, and if Rondo hadn't been an incompetent boob unable to make the Lakers pay for that strategy, they'd have another ring to their names, even if they lost some perimeter D in the process.

That's just one example. Anyway, what a ridiculous approach to the question; how did you ever think that was a wise idea?

[Grits n Gravy]

so steve nash effectively is as valuable on the defensive end as rondo? however i agree that individual offense beats individual defense

No, that would be a ridiculous assertion to make. We're talking about the position as a whole. Obviously, an individual defender at a position can be better than another. Rondo is a better defender than Nash. Steve Nash, however, is so much better than Rondo on offense that it doesn't matter a little. You wouldn't DARE do to Nash what Kobe did to Rondo in the 2010 Finals, and if Rondo hadn't been an incompetent boob unable to make the Lakers pay for that strategy, they'd have another ring to their names, even if they lost some perimeter D in the process.

That's just one example. Anyway, what a ridiculous approach to the question; how did you ever think that was a wise idea?

well the initial assertion was that "nothing is more irrelevant than point guard defense" which i strongly disagree with and if that was the case than my previous post would pretty much be true, but as we all know it's not.

edit: i wasn't trying to be wise, i was just stating what would be true if point guard defense was indeed irrelevant.

[junot111]

Being the best defender under 6'4 doesn't even matter. If you're under 6'4 you're usually a point guard and nothing is more irrelevant than point guard defense

that's why we give credit to guys like Dumars that were undersized and still played defense on bigger SG's like Jordan

[Rerisen]

Being the best defender under 6'4 doesn't even matter. If you're under 6'4 you're usually a point guard and nothing is more irrelevant than point guard defense

that's why we give credit to guys like Dumars that were undersized and still played defense on bigger SG's like Jordan

Jordan was sort of unique though in that it wasn't just about him going by you, but your ability to resist him in the post too. Dumars was smaller so had quicker feet than some big guys for the perimeter but was also very strong and fiesty on the block, which is where MJ would abuse a lot of smaller guys - bigger too actually.

Most wouldn't consider post defense a big deal for guards, but against a great post guard, it's definitely not irrelevant.

[dangermouse]

Who is it? This is all-time, not just current NBA. Payton/Pippen are a few of the top wing defenders, there are a ton of C's that are great anchors, but who is the best defender under 6'4?

Payton was listed at 6'4" but im pretty sure he was closer to 6'3".

Dumars was also 6'3".

Two of the best defenders ever right there.

[rocopc]

I think Don Buse.... but I dont know if he is under 6-4

[SweetTouch]

delonte west

[TheOUTLAW]

Sidney Moncrief if he is height appropriate

Delonte is a heckuva defender for his size. A couple years ago the Cavs had him straight up against Joe Johnson with no help and did a darned good job

[SSSFreak]

Payton

[ManualRam]

i dont know about the best currently, but kyle lowry is a f'in nuisance on D.