2011 NBA Finals - PRIMES

hayguise · Post #1 » by **hayguise** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:02 am

If everyone who played in the 2011 Finals was in his prime and healthy...

Who wins in 7?

MIAMI HEAT:
Mike Bibby / Mario Chalmers
Dwyane Wade / Jerry Stackhouse
LeBron James / Mike Miller
Chris Bosh / Juwan Howard
Zydrunas Ilgauskas / Jamaal Magloire

DALLAS MAVERICKS:
Jason Kidd / Jason Terry
Caron Butler / DeShawn Stevenson
Peja Stojakovic / Corey Brewer
Dirk Nowitzki / Shawn Marion
Tyson Chandler / Brendan Haywood

fart · Post #2 » by **fart** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:05 am

well considering the Miami Heat big 3 are in their primes, Dallas would win for sure. having prime kidd, caron, peja and tyson with dirk

Post #3 » by **miller31time** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:08 am

You can make the case that Wade, James and Bosh are currently in their respective primes. So, to me, it comes down to Bibby, who in his prime was a near-all-star-caliber player, and Z who was an All-Star but only due to a complete lack of competition at the center position.

On the other side, Dirk is past his prime, and in his prime, he was the MVP. Peja was a bona fide all-star and all-NBA player. Butler was a legit all-star, Kidd was an MVP-caliber player.

This goes to Dallas fairly easily.

hayguise · Post #4 » by **hayguise** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:10 am

miller31time wrote:You can make the case that Wade, James and Bosh are currently in their respective primes. So, to me, it comes down to Bibby, who in his prime was a near-all-star-caliber player, and Z who was an All-Star but only due to a complete lack of competition at the center position.

On the other side, Dirk is past his prime, and in his prime, he was the MVP. Peja was a bona fide all-star and all-NBA player. Butler was a legit all-star, Kidd was an MVP-caliber player.

This goes to Dallas fairly easily.

What about the benches?

Walid · Post #5 » by **Walid** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:11 am

hayguise wrote:
miller31time wrote:You can make the case that Wade, James and Bosh are currently in their respective primes. So, to me, it comes down to Bibby, who in his prime was a near-all-star-caliber player, and Z who was an All-Star but only due to a complete lack of competition at the center position.

On the other side, Dirk is past his prime, and in his prime, he was the MVP. Peja was a bona fide all-star and all-NBA player. Butler was a legit all-star, Kidd was an MVP-caliber player.

This goes to Dallas fairly easily.

What about the benches?

Shawn Marion prime > Entire heat bench

Post #6 » by **NyCeEvO** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:11 am

fart wrote:well considering the Miami Heat big 3 are in their primes, Dallas would win for sure. having prime kidd, caron, peja and tyson with dirk

Yeah, prime Kidd makes this a no brainer. The fact that Dallas beat the Heat when most of the Dallas players are past their prime while the Heat's big 3 are in their prime should speak volumes.

JustCame · Post #7 » by **JustCame** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:19 am

Prime Kidd makes Dallas unbelievable.

Post #8 » by **miller31time** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:20 am

hayguise wrote:
miller31time wrote:You can make the case that Wade, James and Bosh are currently in their respective primes. So, to me, it comes down to Bibby, who in his prime was a near-all-star-caliber player, and Z who was an All-Star but only due to a complete lack of competition at the center position.

On the other side, Dirk is past his prime, and in his prime, he was the MVP. Peja was a bona fide all-star and all-NBA player. Butler was a legit all-star, Kidd was an MVP-caliber player.

This goes to Dallas fairly easily.

What about the benches?

Whoops, didn't know you took that into the equation.

But even acknowledging that, there are only so many minutes available so having the most depth in a 7-game series doesn't matter as much as one would think.

With benches, you look at Stackhouse and Howard as the two players who improve the most. Stack was a lethal scorer in his prime and would be used as a 6th man. Howard was an All-Star as well. Miller, Magloire don't factor much, IMO.

For Dallas, I'd start Marion who I believed to be almost as crucial a piece to Phoenix's dominance as Nash in his prime. With what he could do defensively and in transition, rebounding, etc, he was a force. I'd bring Peja off the bench as the 6th man extraordinaire. Haywood would start over Chandler. He's one of the most unappreciated defenders in the last decade as far as I'm concerned. In his prime, one of his biggest weaknesses (FG%) was actually in the mid-70s.

So again, I'd easily take Dallas.

orangeparka · Post #9 » by **orangeparka** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:08 am

inb4 Bron is past his prime.

sefant77 · Post #10 » by **sefant77** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:13 am

Prime Mavs would destroy the current league

James ran out of gas in the 4th quarter, imagine it against the absolut sick SF/PF rotation of Dirk-Marion-Butler-Peja...

sefant77 · Post #11 » by **sefant77** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:15 am

miller31time wrote:
On the other side, Dirk is past his prime, and in his prime, he was the MVP. Peja was a bona fide all-star and all-NBA player. Butler was a legit all-star, Kidd was an MVP-caliber player.

Dont know which playoffs you watched but i take 10-11 Dirk over 05-06 or 06-07 Dirk, easily. He lost a step but he lift his game in so many other areas.

That was one of the amazing thing, a 10time allstar, MVp etc playing his best ball of his career at the age of almost 33..

ERRDAY3 · Post #12 » by **ERRDAY3** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:26 am

orangeparka wrote:inb4 Bron is past his prime.

Lebron hasn't reached his prime

ERRDAY3 · Post #13 » by **ERRDAY3** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:29 am

you could argue Lebron and Wade are past their mental prime the loss of the killer instint

Rapcity_11 · Post #14 » by **Rapcity_11** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:43 am

JustCame wrote:Prime Kidd makes Dallas unbelievable.

No, not really. An argument could be made that they would be better with old Kidd because of his reliable J.

@ miller - Dirk is definitely still in his prime. And Haywood over Chandler? Why?

KGboss · Post #15 » by **KGboss** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:52 am

ERRDAY3 wrote:you could argue Lebron and Wade are past their mental prime the loss of the killer instint

Lebron had a killer instinct?

Brooklyn_34 · Post #16 » by **Brooklyn_34** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:56 am

Dallas... too many weapons.

Post #17 » by **miller31time** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:00 am

sefant77 wrote:Dont know which playoffs you watched but i take 10-11 Dirk over 05-06 or 06-07 Dirk, easily. He lost a step but he lift his game in so many other areas.

That was one of the amazing thing, a 10time allstar, MVp etc playing his best ball of his career at the age of almost 33..

Not sure if the OP was looking for prime playoff performances or prime seasons. I took it as "prime season(s)".

Post #18 » by **miller31time** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:11 am

Rapcity_11 wrote:@ miller - Dirk is definitely still in his prime.

Yeah, he hasn't fallen off that much at all. I probably shouldn't have said "past his prime" but I think he was a slightly better player in 05-06 and 06-07 than he was in 10-11.

And Haywood over Chandler? Why?

As I said, Haywood in his prime was one of the most under-appreciated low-post defenders in the last decade. He was an extremely efficient (albeit limited) offensive player and in his best year was a very serviceable free throw shooter.

In the 07-08 season, Haywood averaged (per-36 minutes)...

13.7pts
9.3rebs
1.1asts
2.1blks
52.8%fg
73.5%ft
18.3 PER
58.2% TS
52.8% eFG

He was one of the league leaders in offensive rebounds and field goal percentage.

ERRDAY3 · Post #19 » by **ERRDAY3** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:12 am

KGboss wrote:
ERRDAY3 wrote:you could argue Lebron and Wade are past their mental prime the loss of the killer instint

Lebron had a killer instinct?

well kind of before 2009 he had his moments

Rapcity_11 · Post #20 » by **Rapcity_11** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:24 am

miller31time wrote:
Yeah, he hasn't fallen off that much at all. I probably shouldn't have said "past his prime" but I think he was a slightly better player in 05-06 and 06-07 than he was in 10-11.

Meh, his impact is still as big as ever.

As I said, Haywood in his prime was one of the most under-appreciated low-post defenders in the last decade. He was an extremely efficient (albeit limited) offensive player and in his best year was a very serviceable free throw shooter.

In the 07-08 season, Haywood averaged (per-36 minutes)...

13.7pts
9.3rebs
1.1asts
2.1blks
52.8%fg
73.5%ft
18.3 PER
58.2% TS
52.8% eFG

He was one of the league leaders in offensive rebounds and field goal percentage.

First off, I agree that Haywood is often underrated.

However, Chandler is the better rebounder and much more efficient from the floor. Haywood the superior shotblocker.

per 36 last year, Chandler was:

13.1 PPG 12.1 RPG 1.4 BPG on 69.7 TS%

Additionally in this matchup, it's much more important to have a big like Chandler who is more apt at defending the pick and roll and the superior help defender. Man to man post defense against that Heat roster isn't important, at all really.