The OFFICIAL Rookie impressions thread pt. II

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Re: Lillard & Drummond 

Post#281 » by Doormatt » Sat Dec 8, 2012 12:46 am

Winsome Gerbil wrote:
Doormatt wrote:wat.

drummond has been in no way as impressive as lillard. lillard has played twice the number of minutes and has looked very good/productive. i still dont think drummond will ever be as good as some people think he will, and actually most people thought lillard was going to be pretty good.


Just to be clear here on how unimpressive Drummond has been, here are Dwight Howard and Andre Drummond's rookie year per 36 numbers:

Rookie per 36:
04-05 Howard 13.2pts (.520 .000 .671) 11.1reb 1.0ast 1.0stl 1.8blk 2.2TO
12-13 Drummd 13.0pts (.567 .500 .390) 13.3reb 0.9ast 1.6stl 2.7blk 1.7TO


except dwight howard actually played 32 minutes a game whereas drummond has not broken 18. you can not use per 36 numbers if a player hasnt even shown they can play starters minutes, or even start a game. lol. thats not how it works.
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Re: Lillard & Drummond 

Post#282 » by DavidSterned » Sat Dec 8, 2012 12:57 am

Fischella wrote:Lillard is already 22 and his upside is limited.

No way he's the next nothing at PG position, at best top7, he hasnt a shot at elite PG at all.


Yeah, a total bust.
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Re: Lillard & Drummond 

Post#283 » by RalphWiggum » Sat Dec 8, 2012 1:17 am

Fischella wrote:Lillard is already 22 and his upside is limited.

No way he's the next nothing at PG position, at best top7, he hasnt a shot at elite PG at all.

Ya because 22 is old and the majority of players have peaked by that age? I don't even know why teams would draft players in the 80's, after all most of them were 21-22 and couldn't possibly improve their games. Most players peak in the 26, 27, 28 year old range.
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Re: Lillard & Drummond 

Post#284 » by Brandon-Clyde » Sat Dec 8, 2012 1:21 am

Fischella wrote:Lillard is already 22 and his upside is limited.

No way he's the next nothing at PG position, at best top7, he hasnt a shot at elite PG at all.

What numbers must Lillard produce that say elite? Because right now he is a 19.3ppg 6.3apg 3.3rpg. Statistically speaking those numbers are not far from elite now. 2-3 more ppg and apg would put him in Deron Williams territory
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Re: Lillard & Drummond 

Post#285 » by Bskey » Sat Dec 8, 2012 1:30 am

orangeparka wrote:
Fischella wrote:Lillard is already 22 and his upside is limited.

No way he's the next nothing at PG position, at best top7, he hasnt a shot at elite PG at all.


I sorta agree with the first statement, but PGs always seem to improve with experience so I wouldn'r say limited.

Less than an unskilled athletic 19-year-old? Yeah, but not limited.


Since you agree with it, sort of at least, can you please explain the logic? Since when is 22 too old to improve? I don't get it. If a guy comes out early and he's playing in the NBA, by the time he's 22 people say things like "he's only 22 years old! Going to get much better". If a guy stays in college, it turns into "he's 22, probably not going to get better".

When are people going to stop saying this? It makes no sense. Just because a guy stays in school doesn't mean he can't improve in the pros. Please, stop and think about it.
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Re: Lillard & Drummond 

Post#286 » by MNister89 » Sat Dec 8, 2012 1:45 am

Scraptor wrote:A consensus builds around a false narrative:

Lillard is not a true point guard, Drummond doesn't have the mental makeup for the NBA.

Teams who fail to do their diligence end up messing up their picks, like we did.

Scraptor wrote:A consensus builds around a false narrative:

Lillard is not a true point guard, Drummond doesn't have the mental makeup for the NBA.

Teams who fail to do their diligence end up messing up their picks, like we did.


Perfect!

Seems when a player becomes noticed is crucial to their ultimate perception come draft day. Guys like PJ3, Drummond, Sullinger, Barnes all suffered from unfair expectations on draft-day. Each was once touted as a sure-fire high lotto lock and maybe top overall pick. But all also lingered a little too long in this discussion to the point where what/who they are as basketball players became lost and what/who they were supposed to be, or failed to be, became their identity. In hindsight guys like Jonny Flynn, Thabeet, Derrick Williams, Wes Johnson, Kendall Marshall, Biyombo, and more were just a little bit late to the party. Hard to see that when it happens, but the best GMs are paid the big bucks because they have incredible instincts and safety nets to ensure they don't fall victim to the pretenders.

Lillard was a unique case because he played at mid-major and was the only really good PG prospect. He was scouted for his talent not psycho-analyzed for his weaknesses as other players who are hyped too early often are. Drummond is a perfect example of this. He was for awhile the closest thing to Dwight since Dwight and then, inexplicably and seemingly overnight, his lack of stats at UCONN on a dysfunctional team with a quack for a coach turned his value around 180. He was not Andre Drummond anymore but another disinterested 7 footer who at best might turn into Javell McGee.

I bought into each of these cases mostly as i dont watch/read enough to see through the smokescreens and other variables. But the point is, GMs have to be willing to go against the grain to build a winner. Yes you take the sure-thing if he is there but you don't settle for the Wes Johnson type guys who everyone is terrified to fully endorse but yet still is constantly listed as a Top 5 lock. Poor Wesley was put in that position because of false pretenses and the GMS and coaches who see through the fads and trends which dictate the way media and even scouts rate prospects are the ones who build winners.

Detroit did this with Drummond and considering how terrible the rest of that team is it was a huge risk but it looks to be paying off. Sacramento, on the other hand, went for Thomas Robinson who was considered a lock to be a good player. He's been invisible. Every year the teams who are afraid to risk complete failure end up getting the better results as a whole. Barnes was a risk because his game was so well-known. It was said he will clearly find a role in the NBA but lacks any upside for a top 8 pick in a deep draft. Well, about a year ago or so he was the best wing since LeBron and a surefire franchise scorer. Golden State saw the inconsistencies and the value of both extreme takes on Barnes and struck gold in my opinion. He's still Harrison Barnes, the 6-8 wing with a perfect NBA body and a smooth game that screams NBA SF - but to many he lost that when he couldn't lead a stack UNC team to glory and he became that player instead. Wes Johnson was the opposite. Instead of the 24 year old athlete who can occasionally hit an open 3P he really was, Wes became the two-way force that Syracuse's system and good shooting luck made him look like. Any Wolves fan can tell you that Wes was never going to make it. He himself looked shocked that he was given all the attention.
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Re: The OFFICIAL Rookie impressions thread pt. II 

Post#287 » by ElectricMayhem » Sat Dec 8, 2012 3:13 am

I'm a Pistons fan, but there's enough Drummond talk already, so I'll switch over to my Spartan homerism.

Draymond Green!
His stats won't usually wow you, but he usually ends up on the better end of the +\- for all the little stuff he does. In GS' win over Brooklyn:

3/9
6 pts
10 rebs
4 off reb
3 assists
3 steals
2TO
+17

It's the way he screens, boxes out, does all the dirty work that nobody notices. He makes your good players better. The guy is the most beloved Spartan since Magic Johnson and it's because he puts it all out there. I thought his first year situation would make or break his career and I'm happy to see he's getting his chance and making the most of it.
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Re: The OFFICIAL Rookie impressions thread pt. II 

Post#288 » by Train » Sat Dec 8, 2012 3:38 am

^
Wow man...so many words.
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Re: The OFFICIAL Rookie impressions thread pt. II 

Post#289 » by TwentyOne920 » Sat Dec 8, 2012 3:57 am

More Nando updates:

7 points (3-6 FG, 1-2 3P), 4 rebounds, 5 assists (and was running the show like crazy) in 21 minutes.
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Re: The OFFICIAL Rookie impressions thread pt. II 

Post#290 » by EvanZ » Sat Dec 8, 2012 4:23 am

ElectricMayhem wrote:I'm a Pistons fan, but there's enough Drummond talk already, so I'll switch over to my Spartan homerism.

Draymond Green!
His stats won't usually wow you, but he usually ends up on the better end of the +\- for all the little stuff he does. In GS' win over Brooklyn:

3/9
6 pts
10 rebs
4 off reb
3 assists
3 steals
2TO
+17

It's the way he screens, boxes out, does all the dirty work that nobody notices. He makes your good players better. The guy is the most beloved Spartan since Magic Johnson and it's because he puts it all out there. I thought his first year situation would make or break his career and I'm happy to see he's getting his chance and making the most of it.


Draymond is my favorite new Warrior this season.
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Re: The OFFICIAL Rookie impressions thread pt. II 

Post#291 » by Johnlac1 » Sat Dec 8, 2012 2:08 pm

To all the "experts" on this and other forums I'll repeat: Steve Nash didn't become Steve Nash until about his fifth year in the league. I'm continually amazed at people on this forum who declare certain players busts because they're not superstars one month into their rookie seasons.
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Re: The OFFICIAL Rookie impressions thread pt. II 

Post#292 » by Doormatt » Sat Dec 8, 2012 2:13 pm

Johnlac1 wrote:To all the "experts" on this and other forums I'll repeat: Steve Nash didn't become Steve Nash until about his fifth year in the league. I'm continually amazed at people on this forum who declare certain players busts because they're not superstars one month into their rookie seasons.


well steve nash is one of the most unique superstars in history. hes an outlier not the norm. not many great players have a similar career arc to him.

but yeah to call anyone a bust this early is pretty premature.
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Re: Lillard & Drummond 

Post#293 » by orangeparka » Sun Dec 9, 2012 1:15 am

Bskey wrote:
orangeparka wrote:
Fischella wrote:Lillard is already 22 and his upside is limited.

No way he's the next nothing at PG position, at best top7, he hasnt a shot at elite PG at all.


I sorta agree with the first statement, but PGs always seem to improve with experience so I wouldn'r say limited.

Less than an unskilled athletic 19-year-old? Yeah, but not limited.


Since you agree with it, sort of at least, can you please explain the logic? Since when is 22 too old to improve? I don't get it. If a guy comes out early and he's playing in the NBA, by the time he's 22 people say things like "he's only 22 years old! Going to get much better". If a guy stays in college, it turns into "he's 22, probably not going to get better".

When are people going to stop saying this? It makes no sense. Just because a guy stays in school doesn't mean he can't improve in the pros. Please, stop and think about it.


I'm just saying, most stars enter the league at 19 and make huge strides in two or three years. This is a FACT.

No one said Lillard can't improve, he obviously will. He just doesn't have AS MUCH upside.

Limited may be a strong word but the poster wasn't exactly wrong.

Stop being so sensitive.
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Re: The OFFICIAL Rookie impressions thread pt. II 

Post#294 » by theycallmeZZ » Sun Dec 9, 2012 2:55 am

A little late, but here's Val's November highlights (don't think it was posted yet)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDEtybw6_2s[/youtube]
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Re: The OFFICIAL Rookie impressions thread pt. II 

Post#295 » by Kabookalu » Sun Dec 9, 2012 3:48 am

Johnlac1 wrote:To all the "experts" on this and other forums I'll repeat: Steve Nash didn't become Steve Nash until about his fifth year in the league. I'm continually amazed at people on this forum who declare certain players busts because they're not superstars one month into their rookie seasons.


I don't mean to call you out on this because I thoroughly enjoy your analysis and assessment of the game, but isn't it ironic you say this while shutting the door on Brandon Knight?
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Re: The OFFICIAL Rookie impressions thread pt. II 

Post#296 » by TwentyOne920 » Sun Dec 9, 2012 4:04 am

Nando de Colo: 10 points (3-10 FG, 2-6 3P, 2-2 FT), team-high 8 rebounds, 6 assists in 26 minutes of play.

He's been improving since the Miami game.
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Re: The OFFICIAL Rookie impressions thread pt. II 

Post#297 » by Part-time Lover » Sun Dec 9, 2012 4:39 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlGVa2Fb_CE[/youtube]

I don't think this has been posted yet.
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Re: The OFFICIAL Rookie impressions thread pt. II 

Post#298 » by Kabookalu » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:36 am

It goes without saying that we haven't seen the best of Drummond yet, but what I mean by that is that there are aspects of his game that haven't been featured yet that may surprise some people. I think his basketball IQ is very underrated and it's showing more defensively than offensively, but that if he develops more of his offensive game it will start showing. Him and Monroe are going to be a very dynamic passing frontcourt imo.




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Re: The OFFICIAL Rookie impressions thread pt. II 

Post#299 » by lakerhater » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:51 am

EvanZ wrote:
ElectricMayhem wrote:I'm a Pistons fan, but there's enough Drummond talk already, so I'll switch over to my Spartan homerism.

Draymond Green!
His stats won't usually wow you, but he usually ends up on the better end of the +\- for all the little stuff he does. In GS' win over Brooklyn:

3/9
6 pts
10 rebs
4 off reb
3 assists
3 steals
2TO
+17

It's the way he screens, boxes out, does all the dirty work that nobody notices. He makes your good players better. The guy is the most beloved Spartan since Magic Johnson and it's because he puts it all out there. I thought his first year situation would make or break his career and I'm happy to see he's getting his chance and making the most of it.


Draymond is my favorite new Warrior this season.


"Draymond Green continues to be a pleasure to watch and a difference-maker on the court. His minutes were limited Saturday thanks to a bunch of no-benefit-of-the-doubt rookie calls, but he still was the team leader in plus/minus. We saw less of the Lee/Green combo that worked so well in Brooklyn, but it was on the court when the Warriors made their final 9-1 run towards the end of the fourth quarter (and was on the court for the Warriors’ big run in the middle of the third). I’ll be curious to see if Jackson finds ways to get those guys on the court at the same time over the remainder of the road trip."

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/warriors/2 ... izards-97/
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Re: The OFFICIAL Rookie impressions thread pt. II 

Post#300 » by Shem » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:43 pm

Damian Lillard Highlights:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gURQWqlxjY[/youtube]
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