Is It fair to say Kyrie is the best PG Lebron has played...

[lakersin4]

By far the best overall PG Lebron has played next to.. But I think Mo was the perfect fit at PG next to Lebron. A guy that can get his numbers without the ball in his hands is ideal.

[StunnaStan]

all im going to say is, if kyrie irvings stats are similar to mo williams when he was on the cavs, i dont want to hear any more kyrie hype. ive always thought kyrie is an over-dribbling version of mo williams who couldnt lead a team full of top lottery picks to a playoff berth, let alone in the leastern conference.

[Zasterror]

Dwyane Wade probably played with worse starting PGs:

Mario Chalmers
Jason Williams
Chris Quinn
Smush Parker
Carlos Arroyo
Mike Bibby
Rafer Alston
Damon Jones

The very fact that Rio and Williams are debatable on who was/is the best PG at their respective points in their careers with the Heat is hilarious. Plus, the backup PGs he's played with are also cringeworthy

You mean to tell me that's a list of STARTING point guards?

Wade did have just-out-his-prime Shaq and Walker and a prime Haslem though. Riley did a good job building around him. Also you're severely underrating White Chocolate, that dude was SICK!

White Chocolate was sick...back in his SAC and MEM days. Mo Williams was a better player as a damn Buck let alone Cleveland than J-Will was on the Heat.

Of course Riles has done a great job in providing talent around Wade but there were plentiful stinkers at key positions that Wade had to deal with for long periods of time; for example, barring "out-of-prime Shaq", Wade had a slew of horrid starting Centers as well:

Brian Grant
Mark Blount
Jamal Magloire
Jermaine O'Neal (old)
Big Z (super old)
Joel Anthony

[mrmsix6]

all im going to say is, if kyrie irvings stats are similar to mo williams when he was on the cavs, i dont want to hear any more kyrie hype. ive always thought kyrie is an over-dribbling version of mo williams who couldnt lead a team full of top lottery picks to a playoff berth, let alone in the leastern conference.

If you can't recognize the difference in talent be Mo Williams and Kyrie Irving....you have issues. I mean, how can someone who presumably watches basketball call Irving "an over-dribbling version of mo williams"?

[Tacoma]

Lebron has averaged more than 1 assist per game in his career - 6.9 vs. Irving's lesser 5.8. Lebron has always been the distributor for his team. I'd say "the best PG Lebron has played..." - is himself.

[a_sensei]

Best starting PG Lebron played with was during his rookie year.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 90SAC.html
Lebron

[jbk1234]

I have to ask: Are we talking about the Delonte West who was on his meds and was a top defender at the position, or we talking about the Delonte who was off his meds and driving dirty?

[Rob Diaz]

Kyrie is probably the worst defender Lebron has ever played with, too.

Can't wait to see all the Harden-like Youtube videos of Irving's defense, now that he will be playing in meaningful games lol. ****, I might make them myself.

[khufure]

Pippen was the equivalent PG in the Bulls triangle system anyway. In the triangle you just have to bring the ball up and pass it in.

[OvertimeNO]

Yes, if you want to go by the traditional definitions of position, Irving is the best PG Bron's played with.

In terms of role though, the best complementary two-way ballhandler/play initiator he's played with is Wade, and it's not close. But that's not the answer you want to your loaded question, is it?

[tidho]

all im going to say is, if kyrie irvings stats are similar to mo williams when he was on the cavs, i dont want to hear any more kyrie hype. ive always thought kyrie is an over-dribbling version of mo williams who couldnt lead a team full of top lottery picks to a playoff berth, let alone in the leastern conference.

If you can't recognize the difference in talent be Mo Williams and Kyrie Irving....you have issues. I mean, how can someone who presumably watches basketball call Irving "an over-dribbling version of mo williams"?

I think Irving needs to prove that its not true, rather than just dismissing it. I realize Irving is wildly more talented, but as far as the product they actually put on the court it sounds fair - until proven otherwise.

[FlightNumber23]

all im going to say is, if kyrie irvings stats are similar to mo williams when he was on the cavs, i dont want to hear any more kyrie hype. ive always thought kyrie is an over-dribbling version of mo williams who couldnt lead a team full of top lottery picks to a playoff berth, let alone in the leastern conference.

If you can't recognize the difference in talent be Mo Williams and Kyrie Irving....you have issues. I mean, how can someone who presumably watches basketball call Irving "an over-dribbling version of mo williams"?

I think Irving needs to prove that its not true, rather than just dismissing it. I realize Irving is wildly more talented, but as far as the product they actually put on the court it sounds fair - until proven otherwise.

Good god has Kyrie got so hated on on these boards that we are saying hes another version of Mo Williams? If Mo Williams were to have the role that Kyrie did last year having to be the lead scorer and leader of a team of 21 year olds and D-league all stars he would crap himself. Ease up on the man for goodness sake. When LeBron was in CLE peoples huge thing was "blah blah they never surround Bron with talent and you cant go far like that so he bounced bla bla bla"

What makes that situation any different than Kyries the past few years? The best player on the team outside of him was Andy Varajao who missed on average 53 games a year since coming into the league, a "locker room cancer that is a low efficiency chucker" (deemed by ppl on realgm) in Dion Waiters, a D-league all star in Alonzo Gee, a "above average energy bench PF" (once again deemed by people on realgm) in Tristan, a Australian kid who nobody knows where he came from in named Matt Deledova, "the biggest bust #1 pick ever" in Anthony Bennett and Tyler Zeller........like cmon you guys have gotta be kidding me with this stuff, and you blame Kyries lack of efficiency on because hes overrated and not a top 10 pg?

How about it was because instead of doing drive and kicks with Klay Thompson and having slashers like Iggy to drop the ball off to like Curry does, Kyrie he had to kick the ball to Alonzo "i somehow stumbled onto a NBA floor one day and its cool I guess" Gee. Or maybe instead of doing pick and rolls with Demarcus Cousins and Lamarcus Aldridge like Thomas/Lillard, he was doing pick and rolls with Tristan Thompson and Anthony Bennett. A (deemed by realgm) solid bench PF and the worst #1 pick in the history of the NBA. Oh, maybe he could have differed some of the load off to somebody else like Kevin Durant/Zach Randolph/Marc Gasol which Conley/Westbrook do, nope who wants the biggest low effiency chucker next to JR Smith in Dion Waiters taking a large amount of the offense....

My point is if you all were going to make the argument about Lebron not having any talent and the FO in CLE is awful because they are the reason he left, why isnt the same argument made for Kyrie. Kyrie HAD to run the entire offense and be a score first guard because there was nobody else on the team with the talent to do so. Did the Cavs really want their most talented scorer/player designated to a traditional "set up the offense and pass" type of role? No. Its like telling a Corvette owner they have to do the speed limit all the time and your not utilizing your players talent properly. Now that Kyrie has players to do the scoring, he can step into a much bigger PG falcilitator role and differ to Bron and Love so he can focus on distribution the ball, running plays, and playing defense.

/rant

I apologize

[Scalabrine]

Kobe. Jordan.

I think with such ball dominant players that can distribute like Kobe, LeBron, Jordan, these guys dont need star point guards because, while they arent bringing the ball up everytime...they have the ball in their hands more than the point guard once it gets over the half line.

Kobe's a good one, Jordan played w/ Kerr for some of his titles as well, so he at least had a solid PG for some years.

I would say John Paxson is on equal or worse footing with some of those guys.

Good call, again, looking at Kerr he at least had some years w/ a solid PG.

Oh you're talking whole career? I thought you meant through an equivalent point in the player's career ("played this long"). LeBron is 29, MJ didn't play with Kerr and Harper until he was 31.

(A little technical perhaps, but this is the internet, after all )

Well, MJ also entered the league at an older age. LeBron has played more years in the NBA. The whole point is moot because Mo Williams was a better point guard at the time him and LeBron were playing together than any point gard MJ ever played with.

[mrmsix6]

I think Irving needs to prove that its not true, rather than just dismissing it. I realize Irving is wildly more talented, but as far as the product they actually put on the court it sounds fair - until proven otherwise.

Prove that he's better than an over-dribbling Mo Williams? Prove it how, exactly? And why should he have to prove something so blatantly obvious?

Kyrie Irving was better as a rookie than Mo Williams has been at any point in his career. Mo Williams peaked as an above average PG who found himself in the perfect situation next to Lebron that granted him a very weak all star selection as a 2nd alternate. This isn't even a debate.

[tidho]

I think Irving needs to prove that its not true, rather than just dismissing it. I realize Irving is wildly more talented, but as far as the product they actually put on the court it sounds fair - until proven otherwise.

Prove that he's better than an over-dribbling Mo Williams? Prove it how, exactly? And why should he have to prove something so blatantly obvious?

Kyrie Irving was better as a rookie than Mo Williams has been at any point in his career. Mo Williams peaked as an above average PG who found himself in the perfect situation next to Lebron that granted him a very weak all star selection as a 2nd alternate. This isn't even a debate.

I'll respond here to FlightNumber 23 as well.

Kyrie is more talented than Mo - that is obvious. I'm talking about production. Last year Kyrie frequently did over dribble, and his contribution was primarily scoring. He wasn't much of a leader (he's said that himself), he didn't set up others, he didn't rebound, he didn't play very effective defense. Kyrie (and his enormous talent) over dribbled and he scored. That's about it.

The only part of the above description that doesn't also apply to Mo in his time in Cleveland is the overdribbling. So yea, until he proves (through production, not highlight clips) that he's more than that you could make the case that he's an over dribbling Mo Williams.

All that said, he's acknowledged his leadership was lacking and that's a good sign. He also stepped up his defensive considerably with team USA, also a good sign. Finally, being on th ecourt will likely force him to cut out the over dribbling, also a good thing. I expect he'll be much more than an over dribbling Mo Williams this year.....but he has to pove it.

[aIvin adams]

When LeBron was in CLE peoples huge thing was "blah blah they never surround Bron with talent and you cant go far like that so he bounced bla bla bla"

What makes that situation any different than Kyries the past few years?

lebron got better every year for his first three years

lebron made the POs in his first three years

lebron's cavs won more games than they lost in his first three years (and each year after his rookie year)

they're not comparable situations in terms of results, really

[joeyAdaMan]

Yes. In this case, Kyrie is the tallest midget. lol

[mrmsix6]

Kyrie is more talented than Mo - that is obvious. I'm talking about production. Last year Kyrie frequently did over dribble, and his contribution was primarily scoring. He wasn't much of a leader (he's said that himself), he didn't set up others, he didn't rebound, he didn't play very effective defense. Kyrie (and his enormous talent) over dribbled and he scored. That's about it.

The only part of the above description that doesn't also apply to Mo in his time in Cleveland is the overdribbling. So yea, until he proves (through production, not highlight clips) that he's more than that you could make the case that he's an over dribbling Mo Williams.

Just because they have some similar characteristics doesn't mean one player isn't clearly superior to the other.
It's just a lazy comparison.

I'm glad you brought up production.

Mo Williams career (age 21-31)
13.3 ppg
4.9 apg
2.8 rpg

53.4% TS
15.1 PER

1x all star

Kyrie Irving career (age 19-22):
20.7 ppg
5.8 apg
3.7 rpg
54.8% TS
20.9 PER

Rookie of the year, 2x all star, ASG MVP, Team USA PG, World Cup MVP

If you'd just remove those fancy crossovers they're the same guy!

[FlightNumber23]

When LeBron was in CLE peoples huge thing was "blah blah they never surround Bron with talent and you cant go far like that so he bounced bla bla bla"

What makes that situation any different than Kyries the past few years?

lebron got better every year for his first three years

lebron made the POs in his first three years

lebron's cavs won more games than they lost in his first three years (and each year after his rookie year)

they're not comparable situations in terms of results, really

So your comparing one of the greatest basketball players ever to a mid level all star? Im not talking in terms of talent, Im talking about their situations with talent around them with both of them being the focal point of their teams. In that case, their situations were/are very similar in terms of talent around them.

I watched an interview with Kyrie earlier this month and they asked about expanding his game with lerbon and love here now and he said 'the offense we were running asked me to be the primary scorer so thats what I tried to go out and do"

Like ive said on these boards 10000 times the Cavs played the style of bball called "if Kyrie doesnt score 25+ points the Cavs will lose." Kyrie was asked to do the majority of the scoring because hes the most talented/best option on the team. Because of this his main focus was to put up shots and points on the board. That doesnt leave a lot of room for stellar defense and averaging 9 assists a game when you are using all of the gas on the offense end trying to be "the guy" scoring on every possession

[improper]

When LeBron was in CLE peoples huge thing was "blah blah they never surround Bron with talent and you cant go far like that so he bounced bla bla bla"

What makes that situation any different than Kyries the past few years?

lebron got better every year for his first three years

lebron made the POs in his first three years

lebron's cavs won more games than they lost in his first three years (and each year after his rookie year)

they're not comparable situations in terms of results, really

LeBron is an extremely rare type of player. The list of guys in the current NBA who can carry a team of marginal NBA players by themselves is basically LeBron and Durant. That's it. Comparing Kyrie's first three years to LeBron's is both unfair and stupid. Kyrie is a talented NBA player. LeBron might go down as the greatest player of all time, and is a lock for top five already.