Demise of the Back to the Basket Big Men and Post Game

[Albanian Damien]

I think a lot of people don't realize this but the NBA is very cyclical. It goes through trends, much like our societies do. For example big men dominated the league prior to the 80's, the 80's saw the emergence of stars like Bird, Magic, Dr. J, Isaiah, and Michael. So it shifted to a more perimeter oriented game with still an influx of heavy post usage. The 90's saw another spike of great dominant big men with Shaq, Zo, Hakeem, Admiral, Ewing, etc similar to the days of Kareem, WIlt, Russell. However by Micahels second retirement the league had transitioned to a much more superstar heavy isos style of play. As the big men retired and more superstars emerged to carry their teams through heavy uses of Isos (Vince, TMac, AI, KG etc) this idea that the big men has officially died started to emerge as well. While it's true that there are no bigmen who play like Kareem or Wilt or Russell there's a great reason for that. It wouldn't be as effective today. The NBA has started yet another shift that I've noticed which is much more team oriented, fast break style similar to the days of Magic and Bird. Now ball movement, making the extra pass and taking the open shots are heavy emphasis in the sport. So of course you could see why that conflicts with heavy post up uses. However, I fully believe that since this is a cyclical sport that either this decade or the next you will see another influx of big men who are not only willing to post up but very proficient at it. Perhaps there will never be players who post up as often and as heavy each possession as their predecessors but I have no doubt that a dominant post player could easily find a way to establish himself effectively in this new style of basketball. Perhaps these guys Embiid or Jahlil Okafor are the ones I'm talking of, or maybe they're not. But the big men has not died out at all. Rather you could say he's hibernating at the moment.

[nybluemeadow]

We were talking about it on the Lakers board, why did it happen? Some said it's because everyone wanted to be MJ, another said it's cuz of KG and LeBron, some said MJ had a terrific post game and the guys who played like him, Kobe, Vince, TMac etc all had good post game. Looked it up, KG and LeBron's idol was Magic, it's him who started the big men with guard skill thing. Now the only remnant we could think of is Big Al, is there any other such player in the league? What's its future?

*EDIT - Qualifier: elite, but not elite of the elite; dominant/pre-dominant; winning.

That is what you get when you start allowing zone defense. I mean for real, how are you going to post up in a zone.

[nybluemeadow]

I think a lot of people don't realize this but the NBA is very cyclical. It goes through trends, much like our societies do. For example big men dominated the league prior to the 80's, the 80's saw the emergence of stars like Bird, Magic, Dr. J, Isaiah, and Michael. So it shifted to a more perimeter oriented game with still an influx of heavy post usage. The 90's saw another spike of great dominant big men with Shaq, Zo, Hakeem, Admiral, Ewing, etc similar to the days of Kareem, WIlt, Russell. However by Micahels second retirement the league had transitioned to a much more superstar heavy isos style of play. As the big men retired and more superstars emerged to carry their teams through heavy uses of Isos (Vince, TMac, AI, KG etc) this idea that the big men has officially died started to emerge as well. While it's true that there are no bigmen who play like Kareem or Wilt or Russell there's a great reason for that. It wouldn't be as effective today. The NBA has started yet another shift that I've noticed which is much more team oriented, fast break style similar to the days of Magic and Bird. Now ball movement, making the extra pass and taking the open shots are heavy emphasis in the sport. So of course you could see why that conflicts with heavy post up uses. However, I fully believe that since this is a cyclical sport that either this decade or the next you will see another influx of big men who are not only willing to post up but very proficient at it. Perhaps there will never be players who post up as often and as heavy each possession as their predecessors but I have no doubt that a dominant post player could easily find a way to establish himself effectively in this new style of basketball. Perhaps these guys Embiid or Jahlil Okafor are the ones I'm talking of, or maybe they're not. But the big men has not died out at all. Rather you could say he's hibernating at the moment.

It has nothing to do with "Trends", it all has to do with rule changes.

[The Infamous1]

Nobody wants to be a big man anymore.

[hodgy#11]

Pekovic

I like also the whole "Euro bigs are soft" generalization that came about, yet there is a good number of Euro bigs who are traditional big men:

P. Gasol
M. Gasol
Ibaka
Gortat
Pekovic
Asik
Vucevic
Mozgov
Antic
Kanter
Valanciunas
Len

Nurkic from Nuggets looks to have some back to the basket potential too

[Albanian Damien]

I think a lot of people don't realize this but the NBA is very cyclical. It goes through trends, much like our societies do. For example big men dominated the league prior to the 80's, the 80's saw the emergence of stars like Bird, Magic, Dr. J, Isaiah, and Michael. So it shifted to a more perimeter oriented game with still an influx of heavy post usage. The 90's saw another spike of great dominant big men with Shaq, Zo, Hakeem, Admiral, Ewing, etc similar to the days of Kareem, WIlt, Russell. However by Micahels second retirement the league had transitioned to a much more superstar heavy isos style of play. As the big men retired and more superstars emerged to carry their teams through heavy uses of Isos (Vince, TMac, AI, KG etc) this idea that the big men has officially died started to emerge as well. While it's true that there are no bigmen who play like Kareem or Wilt or Russell there's a great reason for that. It wouldn't be as effective today. The NBA has started yet another shift that I've noticed which is much more team oriented, fast break style similar to the days of Magic and Bird. Now ball movement, making the extra pass and taking the open shots are heavy emphasis in the sport. So of course you could see why that conflicts with heavy post up uses. However, I fully believe that since this is a cyclical sport that either this decade or the next you will see another influx of big men who are not only willing to post up but very proficient at it. Perhaps there will never be players who post up as often and as heavy each possession as their predecessors but I have no doubt that a dominant post player could easily find a way to establish himself effectively in this new style of basketball. Perhaps these guys Embiid or Jahlil Okafor are the ones I'm talking of, or maybe they're not. But the big men has not died out at all. Rather you could say he's hibernating at the moment.

It has nothing to do with "Trends", it all has to do with rule changes.

Hmm ok first off great response you made A LOT of great points.. It seems apparent to me that you don't see the relationship A(trends) has with B(rules). Do you think that these trends pop out of thin air? That one day all the kids playing basketball in America decided to wake up and say "**** it I wanna play like this". Obviously not. So while you're not wrong in saying it has to do with rules, neither am I as you're trying to claim I am. Literally going right back to my post, lets look at it again.

Why did the trends changed towards perimeter play in the 80's. don't you think it had anything to do with the invention 3 point line?
Why did the trend then change again in the late 90's early 2000's towards ISO play. Don't you think it had to do with the new rules allowing less hand checking?
Why has the trend also changed to more team oriented, outlet passing fastbreak offense. Don't you think it had something to do with further rule changes, I.E. now you're allowed to take two steps before you dribble the ball on a catch which makes the fast breaks much easier

So honestly what I'm trying to say is neither of us is technically wrong but I just don't know if you saw the entire picture

[Damon_3388]

Also, I think the changes in the game can also be seen in the greater importance placed on efficiency, and doing the right thing, ahead of your start "getting their numbers". I mean, it's become apparent that the Jordan-style "isos" on the wing and perimeter are really (unless you are Jordan himself) not that efficient, so you could say the back-to-the-basket "post iso" might be just as "inefficient", hence teams not using it as much as they once did. Doesn't mean players now can't do it effectively when given the opportunity, but it seems like teams prefer other, possibly more efficient/higher percentage ways to score now.

[Freefloater]

Beware, kids under 18, the video contains numerous instances of Manimal abuse
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k--w2iCiJ4[/youtube]

[JonFromVA]

I think a lot of people don't realize this but the NBA is very cyclical. It goes through trends, much like our societies do.

"Trends" is a loaded word because it implies that players are learning new skills and ignoring old skills because one is "cool" and the other is not. "Evolve" would have been a better word.

And in basketball, evolution is constant and everything adapts to it including the rules.

IMO, the NBA wants balance and the NBA has achieved it to a great extent - and by balance I mean it sort of in the same way we see it in video games that try to incorporate multiple tactics and yet make it so any side can win.

We say offense has all the advantages, but we've seen teams recently put up defensive ratings that are right up there with the best of all time.

When the Pistons won the Finals, their DRtg was 95.4 and nobody wanted to see a team dominate with defense quite like that again, but this season the Warriors are 97.7 which is far better than the MJ's Bulls or Isiah's Pistons ever managed. And while back in '03, the Mavs lead the league with an ORtg of 112.1 - we have 3 teams over that right now.

Basically everything is in play.

So big men definitely have a choice. There are those who can do a lot of damage with their back to the basket game and their footwork, but there are others who can make a difference in the P&R and knocking down mid-range shots, and there are others who change the game by spreading the floor out to the 3pt line. It can all be effective in the hands of a skilled player.

If there was one way to dominate the game, you can bet everyone would be doing it, but that's just not the case.

[twix2500]

coaching and the nba change the rules to allow post play to be less effective. It wasnt the player it was the league. The NBA badly wanted the NBA to be an international league. In the 90's international players were badly failing in the NBA, because of the style of play and rules. A friend of mine told me this in the 90's back who was involved with the NBA. I actually didnt believe him and we had a debate and he simply told me watch and see. That the NBA will make the league a perimeter league to fit the International Play. Then came the rule changes (Zone, no hand checking, no intimidation, cant back down a player, charges became a preferred call etc.). Coaches who favored the 3pt line took over college basketball and now the NBA. My friend proved me dead wrong and im looking at exactly what he said would happen.

[tsherkin]

coaching and the nba change the rules to allow post play to be less effective.

People need to stop repeating this. Post isolation has not become considerably less effective. It isn't as frequent, but that's more to do with misperception of how frequent even the ATG post players used back-down sets, and the differing level of positional talent from decade to decade. You can see a number of different players in the league who play very well and even often in the post, which renders the quoted comment fairly inaccurate.

[twix2500]

coaching and the nba change the rules to allow post play to be less effective.

People need to stop repeating this. Post isolation has not become considerably less effective. It isn't as frequent, but that's more to do with misperception of how frequent even the ATG post players used back-down sets, and the differing level of positional talent from decade to decade. You can see a number of different players in the league who play very well and even often in the post, which renders the quoted comment fairly inaccurate.

It is not misperception. Talent coached and drafted or acquired to fit the rules, plays and systems. You have coaches (highschool) in college and NBA deliberately teaching big men to shoot 3's, where before it was discouraged. Your using stats improperly. Stats tell you that it happened but not how/why it happened. But if you can not understand today rules and how it effects players. Just because some players play with their back to the basket does not mean it as easy. Plus if the NBA did not want to change the game how it was played they would have never changed the rules. Not only bigs but it effected every position. The talent did not disappear, the teachings have disappeared before the NBA and in the NBA. In the 90's you could not run a scheme that would keep the likes of Olajuwon, Mark Jackson, Gary Payton, Mark Aguire, Rony Seikley out of the paint. In todays game, you now have 4 some time 5 players hovering around the three point line. Now teams are not even playing bigs at times because most teams have every near the three point line to make space in the paint for one guy. In the 90's a stretch big to clear space in the paint was shooting 15 footers not threes, because they were coached too, and rules allowed you to do so. The Lakers had D'Antonio trying to coach Gasol to play the three point line (he refused), Spo coaching Bosh to play the three point line, the other night Enes Kanter shooting at the three point line. In the 90's they would have been benched for it.

But you must understand plays and how they work against different schemes and rules. Everything they do now to defend the paint would be illegal......

[tsherkin]

It is not misperception.

But it is definitively wrong to say that post play is less effective, because that's quantitatively untrue. There are plenty of players who can use the post, be it back down or face-up (or low/mid/high post) to great effect. It's really more of an issue pertaining to preference and AAU ball than any actual comment on efficacy of possession.

Your using stats improperly. Stats tell you that it happened but not how/why it happened.

No, you're using faulty logic and an inadequate understanding of the post to advance a definitively incorrect statement. It's true that it is more COMMON for players to use other options, but it is far from true that post play is less effective than it was in previous eras.

In the 90's you could not run a scheme that would keep the likes of Olajuwon, Mark Jackson, Gary Payton, Mark Aguire, Rony Seikley out of the paint.

And yet we see teams getting bulk post isolations game after game, even for players who use them rather effectively, which disproves the notion that defenses can scheme to eliminate these things entirely, or even to a significant degree.

[twix2500]

But it is definitively wrong to say that post play is less effective, because that's quantitatively untrue. There are plenty of players who can use the post, be it back down or face-up (or low/mid/high post) to great effect. It's really more of an issue pertaining to preference and AAU ball than any actual comment on efficacy of possession.

No, you're using faulty logic and an inadequate understanding of the post to advance a definitively incorrect statement. It's true that it is more COMMON for players to use other options, but it is far from true that post play is less effective than it was in previous eras.

In the 90's you could not run a scheme that would keep the likes of Olajuwon, Mark Jackson, Gary Payton, Mark Aguire, Rony Seikley out of the paint.

And yet we see teams getting bulk post isolations game after game, even for players who use them rather effectively, which disproves the notion that defenses can scheme to eliminate these things entirely, or even to a significant degree.

Maybe you and me have a different understanding of less effective. If you can scheme to force a player not to get the ball in the post where as before you could not. I consider that making the post LESS effective. You are saying if a coach can scheme to get a player the ball and be effective in the post, means its just as effective. I think thats what me and you are disagreeing at.

[tsherkin]

Maybe you and me have a different understanding of less effective. If you can scheme to force a player not to get the ball in the post where as before you could not. I consider that making the post LESS effective. You are saying if a coach can scheme to get a player the ball and be effective in the post, means its just as effective. I think thats what me and you are disagreeing at.

Right, and part of the misunderstanding is the lack of recognition you have for how much specific roster and coaching tslent are required to play D at the level you're discussing, which can still be neutralized by spacing amd solid passing. Teams can get post isolations regularly against basically any team in the league. Yes, a team with DPOY Garnett and Thibs backing up the coach can make life much more difficult, but that is a specific context, not a league-wide truth. The 08 Finals is not every game.

[twix2500]

Maybe you and me have a different understanding of less effective. If you can scheme to force a player not to get the ball in the post where as before you could not. I consider that making the post LESS effective. You are saying if a coach can scheme to get a player the ball and be effective in the post, means its just as effective. I think thats what me and you are disagreeing at.

Right, and part of the misunderstanding is the lack of recognition you have for how much specific roster and coaching tslent are required to play D at the level you're discussing, which can still be neutralized by spacing amd solid passing. Teams can get post isolations regularly against basically any team in the league. Yes, a team with DPOY Garnett and Thibs backing up the coach can make life much more difficult, but that is a specific context, not a league-wide truth. The 08 Finals is not every game.

I would just agree to disagree with you. But what you said in bold is now emphasize because it is more difficult now to get the ball in the post and forces players out of the post. Just the fact that players have to do MORE implies its more difficult. But I would have to illustrate the difference on the court between before 2000 and after for you to understand.

[tsherkin]

Maybe you and me have a different understanding of less effective. If you can scheme to force a player not to get the ball in the post where as before you could not. I consider that making the post LESS effective. You are saying if a coach can scheme to get a player the ball and be effective in the post, means its just as effective. I think thats what me and you are disagreeing at.

Right, and part of the misunderstanding is the lack of recognition you have for how much specific roster and coaching tslent are required to play D at the level you're discussing, which can still be neutralized by spacing amd solid passing. Teams can get post isolations regularly against basically any team in the league. Yes, a team with DPOY Garnett and Thibs backing up the coach can make life much more difficult, but that is a specific context, not a league-wide truth. The 08 Finals is not every game.

I would just agree to disagree with you. But what you said in bold is now emphasize because it is more difficult now to get the ball in the post and forces players out of the post. But I would have to illustrate the difference on the court between before 2000 and after for you to understand.

At this point, since you are unwilling to accept when you are badly wrong, I will exit the conversation.

[Freefloater]

Manimal abuse continued...Viewers under 18 beware...you might learn how to torture your opponents with back to basket play
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-vz4qpNjdM[/youtube]

[Freefloater]

Here you can see how DMO posted up and demolished the best D center in the game
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_4DPvAxFU4[/youtube]