Is a good Coach the only difference between Thunder and Warriors

[bondom34]

is it in westbrook nature to do that? Dunno about that

So basically your analysis is that the difference between the 2 is the difference between GSW under Jackson and under Kerr? Hence a new coach. And yes, Westbrook is a pretty willing passer. Unless of course you'd say Curry isn't, because they have the exact same number of passes per game.
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/passing/

And that's with Curry in a "ball movement" offense and Westbrook not. So again, coaching.

is he? He comes across as a chucker and can be very wreckless and gets out of control with the ball and his basketball IQ is what let's him down.

Maybe a new coach will change all of this.we will see

He's not? That's all I got. I mean calling him a chucker is like that Harden guy calling out Curry in his threads for random BS. If you want to just bash a player fine, but there's pretty good evidence against it. Does he take a bad shot occasionally yes, but that's more due to him still being the second best option by a mile on the roster.

[bondom34]

People forget quickly.

Last time they were healthy they basically were GSW. 10 seasons all time when a team had an SRS of 9 or greater:

http://bkref.com/tiny/6btHZ

OKC literally 2 years ago. The difference is health, Westbrook went out and they lost. That's the biggest difference.

You underestimate the difference.

Golden State last season got to a level (10+ SRS) where every team that has hit that mark has won the championship, the lone exception being the 1971-72 Bucks, who lost to another team on that list (the 1971-72 Lakers). This is basic statistics: marginal differences become increasingly significant the further along you get on a bell-curve distribution. The difference between an SRS of 9.15 and an SRS of 10.01 is not minor, and the numbers probably underrate the real gap. OKC won the west by two games over the Spurs in 2012-13. The Warriors coasted to an 11 game margin in the western conference last season, noticeably taking their foot off the gas at the end. Golden State's SRS peaked at 11.6 shortly before the all-star break (Feb 4th).

There were some serious red flags for that Thunder team even before Westbrook went down, most notably their AST/TO ratio, which was fifth worst in the league. It's hard to imagine any team winning the chip with that sort of sloppy ball management. Some of that is on Brooks, to be sure, but some of it is the personnel, especially Westbrook. OKC reaching their potential has always been about Russ learning to play smarter, more under control. Donovan could bring in the best system in the world, but if Westbrook doesn't execute, it will be all for naught. I guess we'll find out this season if Russ is coachable.

Russ needs to put up or shut up. He's this generation's Iverson at the moment, with everything that implies.

Wow that's a strong and really unbased statement. So I suppose Houston had no shot either as they were worse, and as far as I know, A/TO hasn't ever really been related to who wins, though I could be wrong. He's still at about a 2 A/TO with the team at 1.46, so the rest of the team is actually pretty bad. Realize that they moved on from the TO machine of Perkins and have bigs with hands now.

And as for the SRS thing, I guess people are again forgetting that OKC was being talked about like GSW this year literally 2 years ago. It was all about them winning the title until Westbrook got hurt and the team fell apart. So clearly he doesn't help his team. The Iverson comp is ridiculous. He's been a much more willing passer who's been coachable his whole career, the dude wasn't even a PG when he was drafted, he's learned this on the fly for his career and outside Harden there isn't a single current star getting as much unbased bashing as he is.

Edit: And sorry, I needed to rant, but the Iverson thing is just a lazy and poor comparison.

[NBAfan3024]

So basically your analysis is that the difference between the 2 is the difference between GSW under Jackson and under Kerr? Hence a new coach. And yes, Westbrook is a pretty willing passer. Unless of course you'd say Curry isn't, because they have the exact same number of passes per game.
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/passing/

And that's with Curry in a "ball movement" offense and Westbrook not. So again, coaching.

is he? He comes across as a chucker and can be very wreckless and gets out of control with the ball and his basketball IQ is what let's him down.

Maybe a new coach will change all of this.we will see

He's not? That's all I got. I mean calling him a chucker is like that Harden guy calling out Curry in his threads for random BS. If you want to just bash a player fine, but there's pretty good evidence against it. Does he take a bad shot occasionally yes, but that's more due to him still being the second best option by a mile on the roster.

Not bashing him he's an amazing player bit has very questionable shot selection.

Was it bad this year because of injures? Maybe so..Maybe a new coach fixes everything.

He's an awesome talent for sure

[bondom34]

is he? He comes across as a chucker and can be very wreckless and gets out of control with the ball and his basketball IQ is what let's him down.

Maybe a new coach will change all of this.we will see

He's not? That's all I got. I mean calling him a chucker is like that Harden guy calling out Curry in his threads for random BS. If you want to just bash a player fine, but there's pretty good evidence against it. Does he take a bad shot occasionally yes, but that's more due to him still being the second best option by a mile on the roster.

Not bashing him he's an amazing player bit has very questionable shot selection.

Was it bad this year because of injures? Maybe so..Maybe a new coach fixes everything.

He's an awesome talent for sure

He was literally the only shot creator there. And he missed a month, that's injuries. Again, Ibaka out a month, Adams and Roberson about the same, Westbrook same, KD more, they traded midseason and had to start guys like Telfair, PJ III, and Lance Thomas. He's been incredibly coachable for his whole career, that's the least of worries.

[The-Power]

So basically your analysis is that the difference between the 2 is the difference between GSW under Jackson and under Kerr? Hence a new coach. And yes, Westbrook is a pretty willing passer. Unless of course you'd say Curry isn't, because they have the exact same number of passes per game.
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/passing/

And that's with Curry in a "ball movement" offense and Westbrook not. So again, coaching.

Passes per game is a pretty weak argument when it comes to playing in a system predicated on ball movement, though. Curry plays way more off ball than Westbrook - something one has to do in such a system by nature - which has to be taken into account. Many ball-dominant players have high assist or passing numbers but can't play in a ball movement system at all.

If you believe Westbrook can play in such a system that's fine. But it remains to be seen and the 'evidence' you provide here doesn't mean much as an argument. Maybe he can change his style of play but we won't know until he actually does. All I know is that he has to change his style of play for him to fit into a passing-system or, since Westbrook plays a huge part in what the Thunder does, for the coach to implement a new, more advanced system. I'm curious to see what happens and hopefully we'll know very soon if ball-dominance is in his nature or if he just considered it to be necessary but is willing to adjust under a new coach with a convincing strategy.

You could have said the exact same about GSW before this season. Which was the point of the thread.

No, you couldn't. Your post included a comparison between Curry and Westbrook and this is what I responded to. Curry always played off the ball for stretches, always shared the ball with minor talent, was never as ball-dominant as Westbrook was last season. The fact that both, Mark Jackson and Scott Brooks, had a very limited playbook to offer doesn't change the fact that Curry never played like Westbrook and that it was never a question if he would fit into a system predicated on ball movement. There is, however, a question mark regarding Westbrook in my opinion. Maybe he fits into another system - I don't insist to know the answer - but I will remain a little skeptical for now.

[bondom34]

Passes per game is a pretty weak argument when it comes to playing in a system predicated on ball movement, though. Curry plays way more off ball than Westbrook - something one has to do in such a system by nature - which has to be taken into account. Many ball-dominant players have high assist or passing numbers but can't play in a ball movement system at all.

If you believe Westbrook can play in such a system that's fine. But it remains to be seen and the 'evidence' you provide here doesn't mean much as an argument. Maybe he can change his style of play but we won't know until he actually does. All I know is that he has to change his style of play for him to fit into a passing-system or, since Westbrook plays a huge part in what the Thunder does, for the coach to implement a new, more advanced system. I'm curious to see what happens and hopefully we'll know very soon if ball-dominance is in his nature or if he just considered it to be necessary but is willing to adjust under a new coach with a convincing strategy.

You could have said the exact same about GSW before this season. Which was the point of the thread.

No, you couldn't. Your post included a comparison between Curry and Westbrook and this is what I responded to. Curry always played off the ball for stretches, always shared the ball with minor talent, was never as ball-dominant as Westbrook was last season. The fact that both, Mark Jackson and Scott Brooks, had a very limited playbook to offer doesn't change the fact that Curry never played like Westbrook and that it was never a question if he would fit into a system predicated on ball movement. There is, however, a question mark regarding Westbrook in my opinion. Maybe he fits into another system - I don't insist to know the answer - but I will remain a little skeptical for now.

Nobody knows for certain, but honestly there's no reason to think he wouldn't any more than Curry. His usage was about 3 percent higher than Curry 2 seasons ago, not a huge difference to me, and its dragged up by last year when he had a pretty limited roster around him for large stretches.

[Onus]

A Westbrook, Roberson, Durant, Ibaka, + morrow or singler lineup scares the hell out of me


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[WESCO]

The other thing you can't coach is chemistry.

Look at all of the recent champs. Spurs Miami mavs warriors. Top chemistry teams b

Selflessness and chemistry.

Again okc is uber talented and I've enjoyed them since Durants first year in Seattle. But how is Westbrook gonna act going from the leagues ppg leader to 2nd banana.

[Deivork]

Coaching is definitely something that has held OKC back in the past. Brooks' moronic decision to keep rolling Kendrick Perkins out there in the 2012 finals against the Heat basically sealed the fate of the Thunder in that series. Lack of anything resembling an offensive system has lately been a liability, as well. Good coaching would certainly improve OKC's chances.

That said, I don't see what makes them all that similar to the Warriors. OKC's defense never got close to the level the Dubs were at last season in terms of quality, depth or versatility, and Kanter getting big minutes is not going to improve that situation. If OKC wins a chip with this team, they will have to do it in a different way.

Thunder don't need to win as GSW did to win the championship. That's obvious. We all agree the Dubs had a stellar RS and then beat convincingly their 4 rivals in the playoffs. OKC might lose the comparison to GS in 4-7 player talent but that doesn't mean they couldn't beat them in a series, or any other rival in the playoffs. If OKC are to win next year it'll be with its strenghts (star power, athleticism, defense) and weaknesses, hopefully dimished by new coaching (ball stagnancy)

[Manute Lol]

People forget quickly.

Last time they were healthy they basically were GSW. 10 seasons all time when a team had an SRS of 9 or greater:

http://bkref.com/tiny/6btHZ

OKC literally 2 years ago. The difference is health, Westbrook went out and they lost. That's the biggest difference.

You underestimate the difference.

Golden State last season got to a level (10+ SRS) where every team that has hit that mark has won the championship, the lone exception being the 1971-72 Bucks, who lost to another team on that list (the 1971-72 Lakers). This is basic statistics: marginal differences become increasingly significant the further along you get on a bell-curve distribution. The difference between an SRS of 9.15 and an SRS of 10.01 is not minor, and the numbers probably underrate the real gap. OKC won the west by two games over the Spurs in 2012-13. The Warriors coasted to an 11 game margin in the western conference last season, noticeably taking their foot off the gas at the end. Golden State's SRS peaked at 11.6 shortly before the all-star break (Feb 4th).

There were some serious red flags for that Thunder team even before Westbrook went down, most notably their AST/TO ratio, which was fifth worst in the league. It's hard to imagine any team winning the chip with that sort of sloppy ball management. Some of that is on Brooks, to be sure, but some of it is the personnel, especially Westbrook. OKC reaching their potential has always been about Russ learning to play smarter, more under control. Donovan could bring in the best system in the world, but if Westbrook doesn't execute, it will be all for naught. I guess we'll find out this season if Russ is coachable.

Russ needs to put up or shut up. He's this generation's Iverson at the moment, with everything that implies.

Wow that's a strong and really unbased statement. So I suppose Houston had no shot either as they were worse, and as far as I know, A/TO hasn't ever really been related to who wins, though I could be wrong. He's still at about a 2 A/TO with the team at 1.46, so the rest of the team is actually pretty bad. Realize that they moved on from the TO machine of Perkins and have bigs with hands now.

And as for the SRS thing, I guess people are again forgetting that OKC was being talked about like GSW this year literally 2 years ago. It was all about them winning the title until Westbrook got hurt and the team fell apart. So clearly he doesn't help his team. The Iverson comp is ridiculous. He's been a much more willing passer who's been coachable his whole career, the dude wasn't even a PG when he was drafted, he's learned this on the fly for his career and outside Harden there isn't a single current star getting as much unbased bashing as he is.

Edit: And sorry, I needed to rant, but the Iverson thing is just a lazy and poor comparison.

No worries, man. The Iverson thing is a comparison AI made, himself. In terms of general on-court demeanor, I think it's pretty apt, though obviously the results are yet to be fully determined.

Not sure what you mean about the Houston thing. Nobody is saying that the Thunder "don't have a chance" or that the Rockets didn't. Every team has a chance. I'm merely pointing out that the best statistical indicators we've got strongly suggest that the Thunder have not, in fact, reached the level the Warriors played at last season. How close they came is debatable.

Westbrook is an absolutely lethal player in transition, maybe the best in the league overall. The problem Russ has is in the halfcourt against set defenses. Simply put, he forces things, and trusts his questionable jumper entirely too much. I've seen him do this with and without Durant on the court. I think some of the reason Westbrook comes in for so much criticism is also a question of personality. His off-court behavior is just weird, and he often gives off a petulant or angry vibe. Some of this seems to be a factor of the organization's generally hostile approach to the press, but a lot of it is obviously Russ. I don't know what Westbrook's really like as a person, but his public persona makes me question his ability to play nicely with others.

[bondom34]

You underestimate the difference.

Golden State last season got to a level (10+ SRS) where every team that has hit that mark has won the championship, the lone exception being the 1971-72 Bucks, who lost to another team on that list (the 1971-72 Lakers). This is basic statistics: marginal differences become increasingly significant the further along you get on a bell-curve distribution. The difference between an SRS of 9.15 and an SRS of 10.01 is not minor, and the numbers probably underrate the real gap. OKC won the west by two games over the Spurs in 2012-13. The Warriors coasted to an 11 game margin in the western conference last season, noticeably taking their foot off the gas at the end. Golden State's SRS peaked at 11.6 shortly before the all-star break (Feb 4th).

There were some serious red flags for that Thunder team even before Westbrook went down, most notably their AST/TO ratio, which was fifth worst in the league. It's hard to imagine any team winning the chip with that sort of sloppy ball management. Some of that is on Brooks, to be sure, but some of it is the personnel, especially Westbrook. OKC reaching their potential has always been about Russ learning to play smarter, more under control. Donovan could bring in the best system in the world, but if Westbrook doesn't execute, it will be all for naught. I guess we'll find out this season if Russ is coachable.

Russ needs to put up or shut up. He's this generation's Iverson at the moment, with everything that implies.

Wow that's a strong and really unbased statement. So I suppose Houston had no shot either as they were worse, and as far as I know, A/TO hasn't ever really been related to who wins, though I could be wrong. He's still at about a 2 A/TO with the team at 1.46, so the rest of the team is actually pretty bad. Realize that they moved on from the TO machine of Perkins and have bigs with hands now.

And as for the SRS thing, I guess people are again forgetting that OKC was being talked about like GSW this year literally 2 years ago. It was all about them winning the title until Westbrook got hurt and the team fell apart. So clearly he doesn't help his team. The Iverson comp is ridiculous. He's been a much more willing passer who's been coachable his whole career, the dude wasn't even a PG when he was drafted, he's learned this on the fly for his career and outside Harden there isn't a single current star getting as much unbased bashing as he is.

Edit: And sorry, I needed to rant, but the Iverson thing is just a lazy and poor comparison.

No worries, man. The Iverson thing is a comparison AI made, himself. In terms of general on-court demeanor, I think it's pretty apt, though obviously the results are yet to be fully determined.

Not sure what you mean about the Houston thing. Nobody is saying that the Thunder "don't have a chance" or that the Rockets didn't. Every team has a chance. I'm merely pointing out that the best statistical indicators we've got strongly suggest that the Thunder have not, in fact, reached the level the Warriors played at last season. How close they came is debatable.

Westbrook is an absolutely lethal player in transition, maybe the best in the league overall. The problem Russ has is in the halfcourt against set defenses. Simply put, he forces things, and trusts his questionable jumper entirely too much. I've seen him do this with and without Durant on the court. I think some of the reason Westbrook comes in for so much criticism is also a question of personality. His off-court behavior is just weird, and he often gives off a petulant or angry vibe. Some of this seems to be a factor of the organization's generally hostile approach to the press, but a lot of it is obviously Russ. I don't know what Westbrook's really like as a person, but his public persona makes me question his ability to play nicely with others.

Thanks. And I get people see him on court, but he's the nicest off court guy around. Won the NBA community award, and does random good stuff. Seems to love the local people and helps everywhere.

http://www.nba.com/thunder/corporatenews/westbrook_nbacares_150519

http://www.okcthundernation.com/russell-westbrook-5-best-community-assists/5/

http://ucla.247sports.com/Bolt/Thunder-PG-Russell-Westbrook-gives-back-to-OKC-community-36364826

I like his on court game, but his off the court personality to me makes him by far my favorite player. Not a bad bone in his body.

[N8N]

Well if Monta Ellis can be taught to play within a system and take over when needed...there is very little doubt for me that Westbrook can, in the right system and coach, do the same thing. A Westbrook and Durant duo is like the ultimate evolved form of Dirk and Monta - and the latter two are excellent shot makers and ISO players. It might take a Pop or Carlisle to get the best out of them offensively, but it is possible.

It is the defense aspect that worries me but health is first and foremost if they do get a good coach.

[Frankie23]

GSW had the best defense for the whole season. OKC never.
GSW has experienced players coming off the bench while OKC has younger players which don't have the trust of their coach.
GSW played more team oriented bb, while OKC rely on Durrant+Westbrook too much.

[Manute Lol]

Thanks. And I get people see him on court, but he's the nicest off court guy around. Won the NBA community award, and does random good stuff. Seems to love the local people and helps everywhere.

http://www.nba.com/thunder/corporatenews/westbrook_nbacares_150519

http://www.okcthundernation.com/russell-westbrook-5-best-community-assists/5/

http://ucla.247sports.com/Bolt/Thunder-PG-Russell-Westbrook-gives-back-to-OKC-community-36364826

I like his on court game, but his off the court personality to me makes him by far my favorite player. Not a bad bone in his body.

See, I didn't know about all of the work Westbrook evidently does in the community. That definitely changes my perception of him as a person. Unfortunately, the public image of him among fans outside of OKC seems to focus a lot more on stuff like the "I just don't like you" incident, his interesting fashion choices, and other sort of odd and vaguely surly behavior. Maybe Russ is one of those people who just doesn't give a damn what people outside of his circle of friends think about him? Can't say I'd blame him if that is the case.

[cw3k]

A fully healthy Thunder team coached by ANYONE would slaughter that injured Cavs team. I've thought this for years now, OKC being a title contender under Brooks just speaks to how insanely good Durant and Westbrook are. I firmly believe if they ever get healthy and get a legit championship coach (which they might have now, remains to be seen)...they'd DESTROY the league. Like 01 Lakers level domination.

Fixed.

I simply don't understand the hate on coaches by realgm. I do agreed with there are coaches who are terrible and should not coach. But claiming any Joe 6 Packs to a championship is just as bad as bad coaches in the league. If you look at all championship coaches, all they have in common beside a talented roaster is they all manage player's ego very well and got them buy into the system.

With a good system, a talented roaster is just a bunch of talented individual, cannot function like a team. Like a big project that need a great/good project manager to manages all the talents working on the project.