Second best player since MJ

[Tiesto_Lakers]

Duncan won a ring at the age of 31, with Tony Parker as Finals MVP. Had Kyrie won the Finals MVP last year (when Lebron was 31), people would be KILLING Lebron for it. In that sense, there seems to be a double standard --- where Lebron has to be the Jordan-level alpha, and guys like Duncan can win rings and get lauded for being a team player.

This is too true.

I've never seen a player get so worshipped for being a team player like a Duncan. I remember when Duncan won his last title people were putting him in the GOAT discussion even though he was the 3rd or 4th best player on the Spurs that year. It's ridiculous how much praise he gets for being in a terrific system like Popovich. The Spurs are just as deadly replacing him with a LaMarcus Aldridge.

I'll admit he was a beast in 2003, but is one year good enough? In 2004 he was outshined by Kobe, just like in 2001 and 2002. In 2005 he had a great supporting cast as well as 2007 and 2014.

I also see that Duncan never gets criticized for not winning back-to-back. Whenever Kobe lost, he was always chirped and degraded, even in 2008 when he lead a mediocre roster to the Finals.

[Pablo Novi]

You only showed the stats from the Finals, congratulations.

Kobe beasted the entire 2001 playoffs.

SOME people forget that Kobe was at least as important and often more important than Shaq in the series BEFORE the Finals. And, that, in the Finals, the Lakers didn't face any great centers - so Shaq beasted in the Finals.

That's not true; he saw Mutombo in 2001, and Mutombo was Defensive Player of the Year that season; he also saw Ben Wallace in 2004.

I doubt anybody has Mutombo in their GOAT Top 50; I don't have him in my GOAT Top 100; same for Ben Wallace. They were QUALITY players; but I'd never call them great, not even close. Shaq, as expected dominated Mutombo. I loved Kobe more than Shaq; but,imo, it was KOBE's fault that the Lakers lost to those Pistons - IF they had gone INSIDE-out virtually every time down the floor; Shaq would have fouled out Wallace - and the series would have been over. Besides, the Pistons would have been forced to double-team Shaq (single-teaming him with Wallace was BRILLIANT - EXCEPT IF Kobe had let Shaq destroy Wallace FIRST, then given the permanent double-teams on Shaq; Kobe would have gone OFF! So that Finals defeat is on PJax too.)

[Tiesto_Lakers]

249 votes in and I was the first to take Garnett. Wow.

Yeah, that's surprising. I know he always had awful teams, but that guy was just a monster from 2001-2007.

[IgorK]

I love Tim Duncan. I love his game, his humility, and his legacy. One of the best bigs ever.

But when it comes to discussing Kobe VS Timmy, people are always blind to the fact that Timmy had Pop (one of the greatest coaches of all time) with him the entire time, as well as at least 2 other HoFers around him for 4 out of his 5 championships.

'99 - David Robinson
'03 - David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Steve Smith
'05 - Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker
'07 - Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker
'14 - Kawhi Leonard, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker

That's not to mention several supporting role players who might just make HoF as well for their overall body of work in the NBA (Avery Johnson, Steve Kerr, Robert Horry)

Kobe won his rings with just one HoF by his side - Shaq for 3 of them and Pau for the last 2.

[Tiesto_Lakers]

SOME people forget that Kobe was at least as important and often more important than Shaq in the series BEFORE the Finals. And, that, in the Finals, the Lakers didn't face any great centers - so Shaq beasted in the Finals.

That's not true; he saw Mutombo in 2001, and Mutombo was Defensive Player of the Year that season; he also saw Ben Wallace in 2004.

I doubt anybody has Mutombo in their GOAT Top 50; I don't have him in my GOAT Top 100; same for Ben Wallace. They were QUALITY players; but I'd never call them great, not even close. Shaq, as expected dominated Mutombo. I loved Kobe more than Shaq; but,imo, it was KOBE's fault that the Lakers lost to those Pistons - IF they had gone INSIDE-out virtually every time down the floor; Shaq would have fouled out Wallace - and the series would have been over. Besides, the Pistons would have been forced to double-team Shaq (single-teaming him with Wallace was BRILLIANT - EXCEPT IF Kobe had let Shaq destroy Wallace FIRST, then given the permanent double-teams on Shaq; Kobe would have gone OFF! So that Finals defeat is on PJax too.)

Would it have been enough though? That Lakers team in 2004 was just beat up and had absolutely no athleticism. I know Kobe played horrific that series, and was going through a rough patch in his personal life, but the Pistons seemed like they knew how to get under our skin. We had Malone out, Payton was meh, our only SFs were an old Fox and horrific George. It was a very weak roster other than Shaq and Kobe in that series.

[Tiesto_Lakers]

I love Tim Duncan. I love his game, his humility, and his legacy. One of the best bigs ever.

But when it comes to discussing Kobe VS Timmy, people are always blind to the fact that Timmy had Pop (one of the greatest coaches of all time) with him the entire time, as well as at least 2 other HoFers around him for 4 out of his 5 championships.

'99 - David Robinson
'03 - David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Steve Smith
'05 - Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker
'07 - Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker
'14 - Kawhi Leonard, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker

That's not to mention several supporting role players who might just make HoF as well for their overall body of work in the NBA (Avery Johnson, Steve Kerr, Robert Horry)

Kobe won his rings with just one HoF by his side - Shaq for 3 of them and Pau for the last 2.

Another factor that no one seems to consider is that Kobe didn't even reach his prime yet during all of the years he played with Shaq. Of course he wasn't the top dog - he was young and Shaq was in his prime. Does anyone actually think Duncan would've been the top dog if he played for the Lakers? That's a laugh if anyone thinks so.

Put a prime Shaq on the same team as '06 or '07 Kobe and Kobe gets Finals MVP every time.

[Pablo Novi]

Duncan won a ring at the age of 31, with Tony Parker as Finals MVP. Had Kyrie won the Finals MVP last year (when Lebron was 31), people would be KILLING Lebron for it. In that sense, there seems to be a double standard --- where Lebron has to be the Jordan-level alpha, and guys like Duncan can win rings and get lauded for being a team player.

This is too true.

I've never seen a player get so worshipped for being a team player like a Duncan. I remember when Duncan won his last title people were putting him in the GOAT discussion even though he was the 3rd or 4th best player on the Spurs that year. It's ridiculous how much praise he gets for being in a terrific system like Popovich. The Spurs are just as deadly replacing him with a LaMarcus Aldridge.

I'll admit he was a beast in 2003, but is one year good enough? In 2004 he was outshined by Kobe, just like in 2001 and 2002. In 2005 he had a great supporting cast as well as 2007 and 2014.

I also see that Duncan never gets criticized for not winning back-to-back. Whenever Kobe lost, he was always chirped and degraded, even in 2008 when he lead a mediocre roster to the Finals.

For me, back-to-backs have positives AND negatives over spaced-apart Chips.
I loved Kobe lots more than TD; but, my #1 criteria is NUMBER OF GREAT REGULAR SEASONS - and there it's a virtual tie between the two. MY tie-breaker goes to TD because #2 he was a (far) better TEAM-mate (in a TEAM sport). #3 However much Kobe beats TD on the offensive end; TD more than makes up for that on the defensive end.

[-Sammy-]

SOME people forget that Kobe was at least as important and often more important than Shaq in the series BEFORE the Finals. And, that, in the Finals, the Lakers didn't face any great centers - so Shaq beasted in the Finals.

That's not true; he saw Mutombo in 2001, and Mutombo was Defensive Player of the Year that season; he also saw Ben Wallace in 2004.

I doubt anybody has Mutombo in their GOAT Top 50; I don't have him in my GOAT Top 100; same for Ben Wallace. They were QUALITY players; but I'd never call them great, not even close.

I didn't say anything about them being GOATs; you stated that Shaq didn't see any great centers in the Finals, and I pointed out that he saw two guys with a combined six DPOYs between them. Nevertheless, both players are often regarded as top-20 all-time at the center position; how often does a top-10 all-timer go against another top-10 all-timer in the Finals? Who are the all-time GOAT SGs Kobe saw in the Finals during the three-peat?

[Pablo Novi]

That's not true; he saw Mutombo in 2001, and Mutombo was Defensive Player of the Year that season; he also saw Ben Wallace in 2004.

I doubt anybody has Mutombo in their GOAT Top 50; I don't have him in my GOAT Top 100; same for Ben Wallace. They were QUALITY players; but I'd never call them great, not even close. Shaq, as expected dominated Mutombo. I loved Kobe more than Shaq; but,imo, it was KOBE's fault that the Lakers lost to those Pistons - IF they had gone INSIDE-out virtually every time down the floor; Shaq would have fouled out Wallace - and the series would have been over. Besides, the Pistons would have been forced to double-team Shaq (single-teaming him with Wallace was BRILLIANT - EXCEPT IF Kobe had let Shaq destroy Wallace FIRST, then given the permanent double-teams on Shaq; Kobe would have gone OFF! So that Finals defeat is on PJax too.)

Would it have been enough though? That Lakers team in 2004 was just beat up and had absolutely no athleticism. I know Kobe played horrific that series, and was going through a rough patch in his personal life, but the Pistons seemed like they knew how to get under our skin. We had Malone out, Payton was meh, our only SFs were an old Fox and horrific George. It was a very weak roster other than Shaq and Kobe in that series.

All of what you say, I agree with. With Malone out and Payton hardly a positive factor (boy did he blow that chance by not willingly accept being a TOP role player on an all-time great roster!); I figured the Lakers would wear them out in a 7-game series - given: a) Going to Shaq relentlessly; b) The Pistons world-class D.

[Pablo Novi]

That's not true; he saw Mutombo in 2001, and Mutombo was Defensive Player of the Year that season; he also saw Ben Wallace in 2004.

I doubt anybody has Mutombo in their GOAT Top 50; I don't have him in my GOAT Top 100; same for Ben Wallace. They were QUALITY players; but I'd never call them great, not even close.

I didn't say anything about them being GOATs; you stated that Shaq didn't see any great centers in the Finals, and I pointed out that he saw two guys with a combined six DPOYs between them. Nevertheless, both players are often regarded as top-20 all-time at the center position; how often does a top-10 all-timer go against another top-10 all-timer in the Finals? Who are the all-time GOAT SGs Kobe saw in the Finals during the three-peat?

I'd bet there's really very little difference between our positions; and what there is being based on slightly different versions of what the word "Great" means.

I'd go with your claim of Mutombo and Wallace being top 20 centers - I just don't have the habit of calling top players that far down my GOAT lists as All-Time greats. I doubt very many people DO. Still, again, imo, we agree much more than we disagree.

If we were to look at it NOT historically, but practically - focusing on those specific head-to-heads; my opinion is that Shaq vs Mutombo was not ever close to equal; and Shaq vs Wallace SHOULD have been the same. Neither of them was a big-time scorer vs Shaq; and Shaq did overall dominate Mutombo; and SHOULD have (if just unleashed as I, and I'd bet most of the world, expected) dominated vs Wallace.

Also, center-vs-center Shaq faced closer opponents in the earlier rounds. Which is why Kobe went off in those rounds. IMO

[DNP - Old]

I love Tim Duncan. I love his game, his humility, and his legacy. One of the best bigs ever.

But when it comes to discussing Kobe VS Timmy, people are always blind to the fact that Timmy had Pop (one of the greatest coaches of all time) with him the entire time, as well as at least 2 other HoFers around him for 4 out of his 5 championships.

'99 - David Robinson
'03 - David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Steve Smith
'05 - Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker
'07 - Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker
'14 - Kawhi Leonard, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker

That's not to mention several supporting role players who might just make HoF as well for their overall body of work in the NBA (Avery Johnson, Steve Kerr, Robert Horry)

Kobe won his rings with just one HoF by his side - Shaq for 3 of them and Pau for the last 2.

C'mon, Kobe had Phil for all of his 5 rings, and Pau Gasol is kind of a HOF lock, and he had Horry too. Seems like you are not weighing the factors equally for both of them.

[-Sammy-]

I doubt anybody has Mutombo in their GOAT Top 50; I don't have him in my GOAT Top 100; same for Ben Wallace. They were QUALITY players; but I'd never call them great, not even close.

I didn't say anything about them being GOATs; you stated that Shaq didn't see any great centers in the Finals, and I pointed out that he saw two guys with a combined six DPOYs between them. Nevertheless, both players are often regarded as top-20 all-time at the center position; how often does a top-10 all-timer go against another top-10 all-timer in the Finals? Who are the all-time GOAT SGs Kobe saw in the Finals during the three-peat?

I'd bet there's really very little difference between our positions; and what there is being based on slightly different versions of what the word "Great" means.

I'd go with your claim of Mutombo and Wallace being top 20 centers - I just don't have the habit of calling top players that far down my GOAT lists as All-Time greats. I doubt very many people DO. Still, again, imo, we agree much more than we disagree.

If we were to look at it NOT historically, but practically - focusing on those specific head-to-heads; my opinion is that Shaq vs Mutombo was not ever close to equal; and Shaq vs Wallace SHOULD have been the same. Neither of them was a big-time scorer vs Shaq; and Shaq did overall dominate Mutombo; and SHOULD have (if just unleashed as I, and I'd bet most of the world, expected) dominated vs Wallace.

Also, center-vs-center Shaq faced closer opponents in the earlier rounds. Which is why Kobe went off in those rounds. IMO

Yeah, I concur with all of this; I also agreed with your analysis of the 2004 Finals from the earlier post, but I forgot to say so before. You nailed it, though, I think

[Ballerhogger]

Lebron James, he has won back to back titles as vocal point of the miami heat. When he left Miami was not the same without him.When he left Cleveland , a hollow city with no sports championships in the last 20+ years. They burned his name over and over . Then he returned , and brought Cleveland a championship. It was not pretty , it was not easy and the road to that championship was long and hard. With Love and Irving getting hurt the first year , Lebron Remdemption Song was amazing. Lebron beat the juggernaut warriors who broke the chicago bulls reagular season record.. Hes been a kobe when he was young, the ulimate high school draft pick. In my opinion.

[r0drig0lac]

I love Tim Duncan. I love his game, his humility, and his legacy. One of the best bigs ever.

But when it comes to discussing Kobe VS Timmy, people are always blind to the fact that Timmy had Pop (one of the greatest coaches of all time) with him the entire time, as well as at least 2 other HoFers around him for 4 out of his 5 championships.

'99 - David Robinson
'03 - David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Steve Smith
'05 - Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker
'07 - Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker
'14 - Kawhi Leonard, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker

That's not to mention several supporting role players who might just make HoF as well for their overall body of work in the NBA (Avery Johnson, Steve Kerr, Robert Horry)

Kobe won his rings with just one HoF by his side - Shaq for 3 of them and Pau for the last 2.

shaq and Pau >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[KingDavid]

I definitely have Kobe as the best player after MJ. Followed by LeBron for second.

I put big men in a different category from perimeter players as well.

[Pablo Novi]

That's not true; he saw Mutombo in 2001, and Mutombo was Defensive Player of the Year that season; he also saw Ben Wallace in 2004.

I doubt anybody has Mutombo in their GOAT Top 50; I don't have him in my GOAT Top 100; same for Ben Wallace. They were QUALITY players; but I'd never call them great, not even close.

I didn't say anything about them being GOATs; you stated that Shaq didn't see any great centers in the Finals, and I pointed out that he saw two guys with a combined six DPOYs between them. Nevertheless, both players are often regarded as top-20 all-time at the center position; how often does a top-10 all-timer go against another top-10 all-timer in the Finals? Who are the all-time GOAT SGs Kobe saw in the Finals during the three-peat?

MJ AND KOBE vs other SGs; & Pablo's MVP Complaints

A. MJ AND KOBE vs the opposing SGs:

I haven't yet responded to your last sentence/question.

The way I figure it: with the partial-exception of the Bird-Magic-MJ years, the NBA, until recently, was a thoroughly Center-dominated League. So, usually being one of the TOP 2 centers (defined be ME as: All-NBA/ABA/NBL 1st or 2nd teams) has been a greater achievement than being a top 2 guy at any other position. In fact, just as you righteously point out vis-à-vis Kobe in the Finals; MJ didn't face much Great competition vis-a-vs SGs for his 10 great years - I don't rate most of THEM close to my GOAT Top 50; Drexler being the only exception; and only in a few years.

imo, addressing JUST regular season performances; and using EACH regular season as a unit of ONE: Kobe had 15 great reg. seasons and MJ had 10 (a HUGE gap). imo, Kobe more dominated the opposing SGs for those 15 years than did MJ for those 10 years. (Of course, Play-Offs MJ dwarfs Play-Offs Kobe - which is the main reason I rank MJ higher than Kobe as far as SGs go.)

But that very domination of SGs first by MJ and then by Kobe; is problematic for me because it makes it really hard to fix an All-Time rank for the SGs that never were good enough to outshine these two. For me it's exactly like the "Stockton" problem. Magic was just better; but I can not rank Stockton less than GOAT PG #3 - he was that great. But Magic's career didn't dominate Stockton's like Kobe's did DWade's - so I have more problems with DWade's All-Time rank than just about any other player. Take Kobe out of the equation and DWade would have dominated that position for any number of years.

N.B. The other All-Time great that immediately comes to mind that's super-difficult for me to rank is the great Bill Russell. No one questions that he's been the greatest defensive force ever (although I don't have him nearly as far ahead of Wilt as most everybody else has - seeing as I closely observed both's entire careers (except for Russel's first; but including Wilt as a Globetrotter - saw him live a number of times that year) if they had recorded them; I'd bet anything that Wilt had decidedly more blocks than Russ.

I can not put Russell ahead of: KAJ, Wilt or Shaq because during THEIR eras, they were THE best Center; and Russell was clearly, imo, 2nd best to Wilt most years (as "proven" by the 7-3 All-NBA 1st Team results).

But I can't put Russell lower than any other center because of those 11 Chips and his dominant defense. So I have him GOAT #4 Center. Seeing as I put ONE player from each position in each set of 5 spots in MY GOAT rankings; this puts Russell in my GOAT #s 16-20 (call him GOAT #16).

B. PABLO'S 3-4 MVP-AWARDS COMPLAINTS:
Of all the MVP awards, there are THREE that REALLY PISS ME OFF (and one more I don't agree with, but can "live with").
1) 1962 Wilt was WAY THE BLEEP better (and more valuable) than Russell - this is THE greatest individual-award travesty in all of NBL-NBA-ABA history, imo. Heck, I had the Big "O" ahead of Russell that year (with his amazing triple-double).

2) 1961 Wilt WAS clearly better (and more valuable to his team) this year; (just as in 1962, in 1961 Wilt beat Russell in the ALL-NBA voting - THEY got it right, the MVP voters got it wrong!)

3) 1973 Dave Cowens beat out KAJ for MVP. I find that vote unacceptable too. Sure, Cowens played out of his head (and WAY bigger than his height and size); but KAJ was just a good deal better (again, as "proven" by KAJ beating Cowens out for ALL-NBA 1st Team).

4) 1958 I don't agree with the Russell over Pettit 1958 MVP vote either - but don't feel nearly as strongly about it as the above 3. In the other three, earlier cases, I closely followed both players that year; this was not yet the case in 1958.

One can notice a pattern in this: a Boston Celtic beat out a non-Celtic in each year. I attribute this to two factors:
a) The C's had more influence on the voters then did any other team;
b) In Wilt's case, the PLAYERS just couldn't accept how dominant he was; and went with a "more-acceptable" Russell.

There's a couple of significant repercussions of these would-be "wrong" MVP results.
i) KAJ would have one more MVP - adding to his various gaps over his nearest competitors; this would clearly aid his case in GOAT #1 discussions.
ii) Wilt would have TWO MORE MVPs, while Russell would have 2-3 LESS - essentially ending all discussion forever about who was the greater player. Further with that many MVPs, Wilt, imo, would get a good deal more merited discussion in GOAT debates.

[mademan]

I dunno if it's clearly Lebron, though he does have the best argument. IMO,

Lebron
TD
Shaq

Kobe

[Pablo Novi]

I didn't say anything about them being GOATs; you stated that Shaq didn't see any great centers in the Finals, and I pointed out that he saw two guys with a combined six DPOYs between them. Nevertheless, both players are often regarded as top-20 all-time at the center position; how often does a top-10 all-timer go against another top-10 all-timer in the Finals? Who are the all-time GOAT SGs Kobe saw in the Finals during the three-peat?

I'd bet there's really very little difference between our positions; and what there is being based on slightly different versions of what the word "Great" means.

I'd go with your claim of Mutombo and Wallace being top 20 centers - I just don't have the habit of calling top players that far down my GOAT lists as All-Time greats. I doubt very many people DO. Still, again, imo, we agree much more than we disagree.

If we were to look at it NOT historically, but practically - focusing on those specific head-to-heads; my opinion is that Shaq vs Mutombo was not ever close to equal; and Shaq vs Wallace SHOULD have been the same. Neither of them was a big-time scorer vs Shaq; and Shaq did overall dominate Mutombo; and SHOULD have (if just unleashed as I, and I'd bet most of the world, expected) dominated vs Wallace.

Also, center-vs-center Shaq faced closer opponents in the earlier rounds. Which is why Kobe went off in those rounds. IMO

Yeah, I concur with all of this; I also agreed with your analysis of the 2004 Finals from the earlier post, but I forgot to say so before. You nailed it, though, I think

BombsquadSammy,
My "middle name" is TEAM-work; imo, nothing else comes close in importance to it.
So when a fellow poster and I start off on a rough footing (in this case not very rough really) BUT then work-it-out; which happens FAR TOO INFREQUENTLY ! - it blows me away and makes me feel quite humble.

It is an HONOR to post on the same board with you.

[BasketballFan7]

Nope, that would be Kobe. Clearly.

This just gave me the quick thought of them switching career paths. Could you imagine if LeBron would have walked into the league with a prime Shaq and Phil Jackson with Jerry West/Mitch Kupchak calling the shots?

How many titles would that team have won?

10

In seriousness, it would be a lot. 2nd year LeBron in place of 2nd year Kobe would make a massive difference in 1998, and that Lakers team won more than 60 games with a 15 PPG Kobe. LeBron by year 2 was one of the top 5-10 players in the league. The Bulls were on their last legs.

1999 Lakers + 2006 LeBron would have had a chance.

2003 Lakers + 2010 LeBron seems like a given.

2004 Lakers + 2011 LeBron is a very possible ring.

2005 and 2006 would have been strong chances with peakish (2012, 2013) LeBron and a still strong version of Shaq.

So you are looking at a lot of rings, yeah, assuming other variables stay constant.

[Tiesto_Lakers]

That's not true; he saw Mutombo in 2001, and Mutombo was Defensive Player of the Year that season; he also saw Ben Wallace in 2004.

I doubt anybody has Mutombo in their GOAT Top 50; I don't have him in my GOAT Top 100; same for Ben Wallace. They were QUALITY players; but I'd never call them great, not even close.

I didn't say anything about them being GOATs; you stated that Shaq didn't see any great centers in the Finals, and I pointed out that he saw two guys with a combined six DPOYs between them. Nevertheless, both players are often regarded as top-20 all-time at the center position; how often does a top-10 all-timer go against another top-10 all-timer in the Finals? Who are the all-time GOAT SGs Kobe saw in the Finals during the three-peat?

Reggie Miller in 2000 and Allen Iverson in 2001.