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quatin wrote:BallerTalk wrote:I think you actually (and unwittingly) made the argument for Harden.
He had superior individual stats to Kawhi and led his team to better success than Westbrook.
If stats and winning are the criteria that matter most Harden is the foremost candidate who gives you excellence on both counts.
At the end of the day all of this feigned consternation is pointless. The 2017 MVP campaign is a two man race between Harden and Westbrook as it has been for most of the season.
The real travesty is that such a prestigious award will come down the the predilections of a handful of media members, some of whom have a noted history of bias.
I don't see anyone, except Harden homers thinking like that though. That's just catering the criteria to fit Harden. Most people either believe in the literal meaning of best regular season performance (Westbrook) or would add the caveat while winning (Kawhi). Harden comes in #2 in either scenario. Maybe if the stars align and both Westbrook & Kawhi tie with #1 votes and Harden wins with all #2 votes?
Fico92 wrote:Wonder (besides last year Kawhi) when the last time someone finished top 3 in MVP voting, DPOY voting, and 1st team was...
Hindenburg wrote:I hope they give it to Leonard. It would send a really strong message that you shouldn't chase stats but play a team ball and chase wins instead.
BallerTalk wrote:That's interesting.
I have to question where you are "looking" because across the board Harden and Westbrook have been the two front runners almost all season long. Kawhi has been consistently in the conversation, as has Lebron, but rarely considered the leading candidate.
Furthermore, the ONLY people discounting team success (which has traditionally been a fundamental element in MVP voting) are those seeking to support Westbrook's unconventional candidacy.
The few people I see trying to diminish Harden's MVP legitimacy are either die hard supporters of another candidate or those with a predetermined bias against him.
The fact is Harden just had one of the best regular seasons in NBA history and his team finished with one of the best records in the league. Those are the hallmarks of an MVP year.
A common refrain is that were it not for Westbrook's triple double spectacle making it a race Harden would be the runaway favorite. So for anyone to suggest he has no case or is a tertiary candidate is dubious, if not outright laughable.
Again, the winner is going to be determined by a cast of media types using their own criteria, likely influenced by their own prejudices and predilections. We'll learn the definitive results of that process next month. I just found your statement that Harden has no justifiable case ridiculous, but not particularly surprising.
Infinite Llamas wrote:Spurs with Kawhi..up 25 against the Warriors.
Spurs without Kawhi...verge of being swept.
That 7-1 without him needs to be flushed down the toilet yesterday.
Volcano wrote:Kobe must the best at everything. He's faster than Westbrook and stronger than Dwight. He's taller than Yao Ming and shorter than Earl Boykins. Nothing you say is going to change their minds.
Prez wrote:It's a complete joke that LeBron isn't even top 3.
mtron929 wrote:For those of you who state that the definition of the MVP is based on the regular season performance, I beg to differ. If you look at the long-term retrospection on past MVP awards, we do NOT look kindly on winners such as Derrick Rose, Steve Nash, and Karl Malone who supposedly deserve the award based on the regular season but were clearly not seen as the best player that season. The longer we become removed from the particular season, the more the definition of MVP shifts towards rewarding the best players. That is why people complain that guys like Shaq should have won more MVPs.
So the MVP should be Lebron James again. When it is close, you reward the best player.
Stanq wrote:So LeBron is not in the conversatino because he was coasting (which he was)... That's very stupid, because we should evaluate how he played in the regular season, regardless if he has another gear or two (or five).
He has close to a triple-double average - 8.6 rebounds, 8.7 assists or something like that - on a much better efficiency than Westbrook, making his teammates better, not really stat paddling as him, yet he shouldn't be in the conversation because... ? Westbrook and Harden fighting for most TOs yet are ahead because we became simple boxscore fanatics instead of watching freaking basketball.
RightToCensor wrote:Stanq wrote:So LeBron is not in the conversatino because he was coasting (which he was)... That's very stupid, because we should evaluate how he played in the regular season, regardless if he has another gear or two (or five).
He has close to a triple-double average - 8.6 rebounds, 8.7 assists or something like that - on a much better efficiency than Westbrook, making his teammates better, not really stat paddling as him, yet he shouldn't be in the conversation because... ? Westbrook and Harden fighting for most TOs yet are ahead because we became simple boxscore fanatics instead of watching freaking basketball.
He was in the conversation all season until he started sitting games while Harden and Westbrook were putting up historic stats on a nightly basis and Kawhi proved himself to be the best 2-way player in the league. Lebron was even getting talked about as the MVP by hot-take analysts when he sat because the Cavs were an astoundingly worse team without him.
I don't know if you were around for the MVP Discussion thread on RealGM, but Lebron got a lot of love, at times he got just as much support as Westbrook, Harden, and Kawhi. If you weren't around for that or didn't notice ESPN debating if Lebron should win MVP every year just because he's Lebron then don't proclaim he was never in the conversation. He was always talked about when mentioning the MVP award.
quatin wrote:BallerTalk wrote:That's interesting.
I have to question where you are "looking" because across the board Harden and Westbrook have been the two front runners almost all season long. Kawhi has been consistently in the conversation, as has Lebron, but rarely considered the leading candidate.
Furthermore, the ONLY people discounting team success (which has traditionally been a fundamental element in MVP voting) are those seeking to support Westbrook's unconventional candidacy.
The few people I see trying to diminish Harden's MVP legitimacy are either die hard supporters of another candidate or those with a predetermined bias against him.
The fact is Harden just had one of the best regular seasons in NBA history and his team finished with one of the best records in the league. Those are the hallmarks of an MVP year.
A common refrain is that were it not for Westbrook's triple double spectacle making it a race Harden would be the runaway favorite. So for anyone to suggest he has no case or is a tertiary candidate is dubious, if not outright laughable.
Again, the winner is going to be determined by a cast of media types using their own criteria, likely influenced by their own prejudices and predilections. We'll learn the definitive results of that process next month. I just found your statement that Harden has no justifiable case ridiculous, but not particularly surprising.
No one is arguing that Harden doesn't deserve to be in the MVP running. I'm saying Harden has no justifiable reason to be the #1 vote. All 3 candidates have historic seasonal performances and good team records. Harden and Westbrook have been the two front runners, because most people consider individual stats more important than team wins, which is why most outlooks favor Westbrook ahead of Harden. I can say the same for Westbrook, that those who nitpick at the Thunders lower ranking are those who are biased against him or are using it as an excuse to prop their own candidate. The argument comes about that team wins should matter more than individual stats, which will be an argument for Kawhi to win. Your argument for Harden as the MVP, that he's a better player than Kawhi and won more than Westbrook can easily be flipped as he's a worse player than Westbrook and more of a loser than Kawhi, so we'll be voting for the #2 in both categories.
RightToCensor wrote:Harden was #1 in the MVP race for most of the season until the last two to three weeks when Westbrook went off and Harden slowed down after his wrist injury. You can check the archive of NBA.com's MVP ladder and see Harden was #1 up until mid-March.
http://www.nba.com/article/2017/03/24/mvp-ladder-week-19-demar-derozan-impresses-late-mvp-chase?collection=mvp-ladder
Harden's stats isn't the sole reason for his MVP candidacy. His team overachieved greatly. What was predicted to be a .500 team and potential 8th seed turned into a 55 win team with the 3rd best record in the entire league. Harden had a strong argument as the better offensive player compared to Westbrook before Harden's wrist injury which caused a big dip in his efficiency. Kawhi is a better player than Harden, but during the regular season Harden had a much larger burden to carry and he led the Rockets to as many wins as Kawhi led the Spurs. Voters take into account how crucial you are to your team's success, and the burden Westbrook and Harden carried on offense throughout the entire season is head and shoulders bigger than the next player.
quatin wrote:
No one is arguing that Harden doesn't deserve to be in the MVP running. I'm saying Harden has no justifiable reason to be the #1 vote. All 3 candidates have historic seasonal performances and good team records. Harden and Westbrook have been the two front runners, because most people consider individual stats more important than team wins, which is why most outlooks favor Westbrook ahead of Harden. I can say the same for Westbrook, that those who nitpick at the Thunders lower ranking are those who are biased against him or are using it as an excuse to prop their own candidate. The argument comes about that team wins should matter more than individual stats, which will be an argument for Kawhi to win. Your argument for Harden as the MVP, that he's a better player than Kawhi and won more than Westbrook can easily be flipped as he's a worse player than Westbrook and more of a loser than Kawhi, so we'll be voting for the #2 in both categories.
svart wrote:My top 2 is actually curry/durant.
So much whining, geez....
In my opinion ( which is neutral here) the matter should be very simple. As good lebron is( the best in the league right now without a doubt) he was costing, the cavs underperformed and he does not deserve to be in the mvp conversation.
And i laught very hard at the post proclaiming the spurs defense is better wihout the last two seasons dpoy.
On topic : i think those three where in the conversation the whole year, and i think westbrook will take it.
NickAnderson wrote:
How old are you, just curious.
by gomeziee on 21 Jul 2013 00:53
im 20, and i did grow up watching MJ play in the 90's.
BallerTalk wrote:Your entire conclusion is derived from a faulty premise.
Exactly when and where was it established that Westbrook is a better player than Harden?
You oddly present that as though it were fact when many would argue that Harden is not only the better player individually but easier to build around.
It is, at a minimum, debatable and as such erodes the foundation of your argument.
As has been pointed out repeatedly in the MVP thread, Harden more efficiently put up nearly identical numbers to Westbrook's all while leading his team to a superior record. That was one of the things that gave rise to the ongoing "Westbrook has no help" narrative.
The two finished first and second in both points and assists per game. The most significant difference between them was that Westbrook average about 2 more rebounds per game while Harden led his team to 8 more wins.
Harden's case is clear and compelling.
It takes quite a bit of dedication (and some mental gymnastics) to insist that Harden winning the award would be unjustifiable. However, your post history regarding Harden and the Rockets makes it no surprise that you would take that stance.
That being the case any further exchange on the topic a likely moot point so I'll end here.
