Who's the G.O.A.T. ?

[CobraCommander]

Wemby
Then wilt
Then jordan
Then KAJ
Then LBJ
Then Bird
Then shaq

[fuller4379]

27% of the people who have voted are as smart as bait.

[fuller4379]

In person, on the court, Wilt Chamberlain was the greatest athlete I laid eyes on. Only player to stop Russell, which he did once.
Russell was also stopped by a sprained ankle in the finals against St. Louis. Otherwise, he won 11 rings, 2 NCAAs and the Olys.
Jordan won 6 rings, an NCAA and an Oly. Though that Oly team he was on was ridiculous. He didn’t win a ring before or after Phil.
Kareem won 3 NCAAs with a great coach and 6 rings with incredible team mates.
Bob Horry won 7 with 3 teams and was clutch as hell, but no one calls him GOAT.

Don’t know why basketball fans are so hung up on GOAT. Something unknowable since you can’t match up different eras and rules.

1959-60: BOS (1) > PHW (2) in the Eastern Division Finals, 4-2
1960-61: No matchup, SYR (3) > PHW (2) in the Eastern Division Semifinals, 3-0
1961-62: BOS (1) > PHW (2) in the Eastern Division Finals, 4-3
1962-63: No matchup, SFW fails to make playoffs
1963-64: BOS (1) > SFW (1) in the NBA Finals, 4-1
1964-65: BOS (1) > PHI (3) in the Eastern Division Finals, 4-3
1965-66: BOS (2) > PHI (1) in the Eastern Division Finals, 4-1
1966-67: PHI (1) > BOS (2) in the Eastern Division Finals, 4-1
1967-68: BOS (2) > PHI (1) in the Eastern Division Finals, 4-3
1968-69: BOS (4) > LAL (1) in the NBA Finals, 4-3

So, Russell beats Chamberlin 7 out of 8 times in the post season and that makes Chamberlin better?

[zimpy27]

LeBron ofcourse

[rzzzzz]

In person, on the court, Wilt Chamberlain was the greatest athlete I laid eyes on.

So, Russell beats Chamberlin 7 out of 8 times in the post season and that makes Chamberlin better?

Chamberlain’s physical prowess was unmatched in my experience. Russell still managed to be tougher. It’s to Chamberlain’s credit that he was the only guy who defeated Russell on the court (depending how you view the St Louis series) from the time Russell was a Jr at USF. Folks who didn’t see Russell play have no idea at the power of his intangibles (like blocking the ball to himself to outlet pass) that made him such a winner. We’ll never know how well Jordan, LeBron, etc. would do against him, but folks would be wise not to underestimate him.

[JasonStern]

Honestly, Joker keeps it up and it's him. Closest thing I will see to a prime Sabonis in the NBA in my lifetime.

It would have been LeBron had the "El BJ" nickname stuck. Like Jordan probably had a better peak, but he also took 2 seasons off and wasn't the consistent workhorse LeBron was. But I'm also sure the Bulls beating the Blazers in the finals while the Blazers haven't really been relevant during LeBron's career might be skewing my beliefs on this.

I haven't even watched LeBron's Space Jam movie, but I feel I can come into this uneducated and give Jordan the nod there.

[Ballerhogger]

"Lets do this" again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again

I vote for the GOAT !

[Gregoire]

MJ. Its consensus. Only Jordcan haters and Lebron fanboys on RealGm PC board could argue vice versa.

[70sFan]

MJ. Its consensus. Only Jordcan haters and Lebron fanboys on RealGm PC board could argue vice versa.

How about people who have Bill Russell first? Are they also Jordan haters? Does not having Jordan first make you automatically Jordan hater?

[Curmudgeon]

G.O.A.T. at what? Russel was the G.O.A.T. at winning. He was the G.O.A.T. at making his teammates better.

If you want to argue who was the G.O.A.T. based on other things, be my guest.

[KembaWalker]

MJ. Its consensus. Only Jordcan haters and Lebron fanboys on RealGm PC board could argue vice versa.

How about people who have Bill Russell first? Are they also Jordan haters? Does not having Jordan first make you automatically Jordan hater?

There's always going to be a segment of people who think that not following the consensus (in this case, the consensus being that MJ or LeBron is GOAT) makes them more well informed or savvy than the general public. Similarly to how you would handle attention the seeking behavior of a screeching child on a plane, the best you can do is shake your head, put on some headphones and try to ignore it. Engaging with it only validates and makes the problem worse.

[70sFan]

MJ. Its consensus. Only Jordcan haters and Lebron fanboys on RealGm PC board could argue vice versa.

How about people who have Bill Russell first? Are they also Jordan haters? Does not having Jordan first make you automatically Jordan hater?

There's always going to be a segment of people who think that not following the consensus (in this case, the consensus being that MJ or LeBron is GOAT) makes them more well informed or savvy than the general public. Similarly to how you would handle attention the seeking behavior of a screeching child on a plane, the best you can do is shake your head, put on some headphones and try to ignore it. Engaging with it only validates and makes the problem worse.

So you agree that you can't have anyone else at GOAT position?

[JordansBulls]

Wemby
Then wilt
Then jordan
Then KAJ
Then LBJ
Then Bird
Then shaq

Expectations for Wemby is that if his career is like Durant or Hakeem that it wasn’t a good career if he is the greatest prospect ever.

[OdomFan]

MJ. Its consensus. Only Jordcan haters and Lebron fanboys on RealGm PC board could argue vice versa.

How about people who have Bill Russell first? Are they also Jordan haters? Does not having Jordan first make you automatically Jordan hater?

Unless we're discussing greatest defensive anchor of all time, there really isn't much else to discuss as far as goat involving him. He's not even the greatest center of all time. It just sounds like he's your favorite player which is fine.

Do you really think Russell has an argument for being a better overall player than your other guy, Kareem?

[70sFan]

MJ. Its consensus. Only Jordcan haters and Lebron fanboys on RealGm PC board could argue vice versa.

How about people who have Bill Russell first? Are they also Jordan haters? Does not having Jordan first make you automatically Jordan hater?

Unless we're discussing greatest defensive anchor of all time, there really isn't much else to discuss as far as goat involving him. He's not even the greatest center of all time. It just sounds like he's your favorite player which is fine.

Do you really think Russell has an argument for being a better overall player than your other guy, Kareem?

Yes, I think he has - even though I rank Kareem higher all time.

Think about it this way - Russell was the contemporary of one of the greatest two-way players ever and he had considerably better career and came out as superior player.

[ShaqAttac]

MJ. Its consensus. Only Jordcan haters and Lebron fanboys on RealGm PC board could argue vice versa.

How about people who have Bill Russell first? Are they also Jordan haters? Does not having Jordan first make you automatically Jordan hater?

Unless we're discussing greatest defensive anchor of all time, there really isn't much else to discuss as far as goat involving him. He's not even the greatest center of all time. It just sounds like he's your favorite player which is fine.

Do you really think Russell has an argument for being a better overall player than your other guy, Kareem?

u realize russ was worth way more to his teams than mj was? bro literally beat a superteam with weak help. Mj never did nothin when the deck wasnt stacked

Eni cookin, but ill try and do my best. I aint ever write this muuch but imma try to format proper like ppl tell me too.

I know we aint votin on em all, but imma list the 6 players who i think should get noms first

1 Russ, will say more down under
2 Mikan, will say more down under
3 Bron, Nukes every1 but russ n cap in "Impact", crazy longetvity, plays in way better league, apm goes craaazy
4 Cap, Crazzy longetvity, also better in "impact" for his peak than every1 but bron n russ from what im seein, was awesome before he even entereed nba
5. Timmy D, always on a good team, all-time carry job in 03, all-time leadeer who took paycuts to help antonio win, n honestly, was prob the best player of the 2000's, I thought shaq was 1 but i cant argue with da facts.
6. Dream, I know its crazy soundin, but I think he got a good arg here from what im seein. same rs impaact, n went nova in the pos. Eni n KD make really goood points so ill let em d up. basically tho his "impact' In rs is comp and he gets way better in the yoffs. He also carried meh help to b2b chips while MJ literallly only won with an uberduper superteam. Unless im missin sumthn MJ would be the only nom whose never won without a deathsquad.


VOTE BILL RUSSELL
this is p easy. He won 11 rings as the best player by faar and was so good ppl been strugglin hard to come up with any kinda arg against the season when he was bout to retire. Man literally crusshes superteams with bad help n was also the coach. He also was facin craazy comp

ut this doesn't mean anything of itself. For the KD parallel to work, the Celtics need to be great(relative to the comp) without Russell. Nothing suggests this is true beyond the Celtics first few titles(i listed the different stuff in my previous post). Crucially everything we have suggests the opposite was true in 1969, and here the competition is far better than "not weak".

Assuming you are not trying to break era-relativity, here are 3-ways we can look at opposition strength
1. Look at how the teams look relative to the league for the era(sixers and knicks are outliers by srs, Lakers are close)
2. Look at how the comp was relative to the league that season(Celtics beat the best, 2nd best and 4th best opponent they could have had by SRS)
3. Look at how the comp was in surrounding seasons(Knicks SRS doubles en-route to a championship the following year, Bullets and Lakers srs drops but they take the Knicks to 7 and LA win a championship and make 3 finals)

By any of these approaches the Celtics faced an all-time difficult gauntlet and there is absolutely nothing to suggest the Celtics were some stacked super-squad. "Competition" is not a serious argument here. Bill went through just about the hardest possible route, with weak support, in a year where the best teams were unusually good. Not sure how that doesn't get him to a tier 1(era-relative) peak unless you arbitrarily decide to curve 1969 down to what feels reasonable without scaling the other title-winning years up.

Idrg how u can arg against a guy who won way more than every1 and also won with less help. Team went bitw to bad without him when he was supposed to be waashed. If you got him low coz the league sucked i get you. But ppl sayin they era-relative and not havin russ 1 is cap. He only ever lost when hurt and he stay winnin even when his teammates sucked facin the death-star. Ez 1 for me.

[hauntedcomputer]

Imagine a guy who won seven rings and three scoring titles in 10 years and had three major rules changes created specifically because of him.

Then imagine him never appearing on any top 10 lists.

Then imagine George Mikan.

Whatever criteria or argument you use besides recency bias, he deserves to be in the conversation.

Jordan is the GOAT, but Mikan arguably did more for the game and its popularity than even Jordan.

[JordansBulls]

How about people who have Bill Russell first? Are they also Jordan haters? Does not having Jordan first make you automatically Jordan hater?

Unless we're discussing greatest defensive anchor of all time, there really isn't much else to discuss as far as goat involving him. He's not even the greatest center of all time. It just sounds like he's your favorite player which is fine.

Do you really think Russell has an argument for being a better overall player than your other guy, Kareem?

u realize russ was worth way more to his teams than mj was? bro literally beat a superteam with weak help. Mj never did nothin when the deck wasnt stacked

Eni cookin, but ill try and do my best. I aint ever write this muuch but imma try to format proper like ppl tell me too.

I know we aint votin on em all, but imma list the 6 players who i think should get noms first

1 Russ, will say more down under
2 Mikan, will say more down under
3 Bron, Nukes every1 but russ n cap in "Impact", crazy longetvity, plays in way better league, apm goes craaazy
4 Cap, Crazzy longetvity, also better in "impact" for his peak than every1 but bron n russ from what im seein, was awesome before he even entereed nba
5. Timmy D, always on a good team, all-time carry job in 03, all-time leadeer who took paycuts to help antonio win, n honestly, was prob the best player of the 2000's, I thought shaq was 1 but i cant argue with da facts.
6. Dream, I know its crazy soundin, but I think he got a good arg here from what im seein. same rs impaact, n went nova in the pos. Eni n KD make really goood points so ill let em d up. basically tho his "impact' In rs is comp and he gets way better in the yoffs. He also carried meh help to b2b chips while MJ literallly only won with an uberduper superteam. Unless im missin sumthn MJ would be the only nom whose never won without a deathsquad.


VOTE BILL RUSSELL
this is p easy. He won 11 rings as the best player by faar and was so good ppl been strugglin hard to come up with any kinda arg against the season when he was bout to retire. Man literally crusshes superteams with bad help n was also the coach. He also was facin craazy comp

ut this doesn't mean anything of itself. For the KD parallel to work, the Celtics need to be great(relative to the comp) without Russell. Nothing suggests this is true beyond the Celtics first few titles(i listed the different stuff in my previous post). Crucially everything we have suggests the opposite was true in 1969, and here the competition is far better than "not weak".

Assuming you are not trying to break era-relativity, here are 3-ways we can look at opposition strength
1. Look at how the teams look relative to the league for the era(sixers and knicks are outliers by srs, Lakers are close)
2. Look at how the comp was relative to the league that season(Celtics beat the best, 2nd best and 4th best opponent they could have had by SRS)
3. Look at how the comp was in surrounding seasons(Knicks SRS doubles en-route to a championship the following year, Bullets and Lakers srs drops but they take the Knicks to 7 and LA win a championship and make 3 finals)

By any of these approaches the Celtics faced an all-time difficult gauntlet and there is absolutely nothing to suggest the Celtics were some stacked super-squad. "Competition" is not a serious argument here. Bill went through just about the hardest possible route, with weak support, in a year where the best teams were unusually good. Not sure how that doesn't get him to a tier 1(era-relative) peak unless you arbitrarily decide to curve 1969 down to what feels reasonable without scaling the other title-winning years up.

Idrg how u can arg against a guy who won way more than every1 and also won with less help. Team went bitw to bad without him when he was supposed to be waashed. If you got him low coz the league sucked i get you. But ppl sayin they era-relative and not havin russ 1 is cap. He only ever lost when hurt and he stay winnin even when his teammates sucked facin the death-star. Ez 1 for me.

Russell joined a team that had the 2nd best record in the league prior to Russell joining and the year he joined he had the league mvp winner and ROY over him on the team the same year.

[ShaqAttac]

Unless we're discussing greatest defensive anchor of all time, there really isn't much else to discuss as far as goat involving him. He's not even the greatest center of all time. It just sounds like he's your favorite player which is fine.

Do you really think Russell has an argument for being a better overall player than your other guy, Kareem?

u realize russ was worth way more to his teams than mj was? bro literally beat a superteam with weak help. Mj never did nothin when the deck wasnt stacked

Eni cookin, but ill try and do my best. I aint ever write this muuch but imma try to format proper like ppl tell me too.

I know we aint votin on em all, but imma list the 6 players who i think should get noms first

1 Russ, will say more down under
2 Mikan, will say more down under
3 Bron, Nukes every1 but russ n cap in "Impact", crazy longetvity, plays in way better league, apm goes craaazy
4 Cap, Crazzy longetvity, also better in "impact" for his peak than every1 but bron n russ from what im seein, was awesome before he even entereed nba
5. Timmy D, always on a good team, all-time carry job in 03, all-time leadeer who took paycuts to help antonio win, n honestly, was prob the best player of the 2000's, I thought shaq was 1 but i cant argue with da facts.
6. Dream, I know its crazy soundin, but I think he got a good arg here from what im seein. same rs impaact, n went nova in the pos. Eni n KD make really goood points so ill let em d up. basically tho his "impact' In rs is comp and he gets way better in the yoffs. He also carried meh help to b2b chips while MJ literallly only won with an uberduper superteam. Unless im missin sumthn MJ would be the only nom whose never won without a deathsquad.


VOTE BILL RUSSELL
this is p easy. He won 11 rings as the best player by faar and was so good ppl been strugglin hard to come up with any kinda arg against the season when he was bout to retire. Man literally crusshes superteams with bad help n was also the coach. He also was facin craazy comp


Idrg how u can arg against a guy who won way more than every1 and also won with less help. Team went bitw to bad without him when he was supposed to be waashed. If you got him low coz the league sucked i get you. But ppl sayin they era-relative and not havin russ 1 is cap. He only ever lost when hurt and he stay winnin even when his teammates sucked facin the death-star. Ez 1 for me.

Russell joined a team that had the 2nd best record in the league prior to Russell joining and the year he joined he had the league mvp winner and ROY over him on the team the same year.

and? 1969 was 13 yrs later. russell won a bunch without hondo. Jordan didnt win **** without pip n jackson.

[Chanel Bomber]

u realize russ was worth way more to his teams than mj was? bro literally beat a superteam with weak help. Mj never did nothin when the deck wasnt stacked

Russell joined a team that had the 2nd best record in the league prior to Russell joining and the year he joined he had the league mvp winner and ROY over him on the team the same year.

and? 1969 was 13 yrs later. russell won a bunch without hondo. Jordan didnt win **** without pip n jackson.

Maybe that's because he spent most of his career with Pippen and over half of his career in Chicago with Phil?

Unless you expected MJ to be peak MJ since his rookie season. I don't think that's a fair expectation, so how are we holding that against him?