The Defense thread 2024 (Final DPOY vote)

[Mrakar]

Herb tonight: 17p, 5r, 4a and 7stl.
F-ing defensive monster!

[bisme37]

Periodic reminder that Derrick White is an animal

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[cupcakesnake]

Periodic reminder that Derrick White is an animal

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It's absolutely past time to put Derrick White in the best shot-blocking guard of all-time discussion.

MJ: 1.1 blocks per 100 possession
Wade: 1.3 blocks per 100 possessions
White: 1.5 blocks per 100 possession
Green: 1.5 blocks per 100 possession

People always talk about Wade and MJ because they played bigger minutes, but in terms of quality it's the D dot Color Name Bros: Danny Green and Derrick White.

[firedavidkahn]

Unless Gobert gets injured, he pretty much should be a lock for DPOY again

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Wemby... You are the future defensive GOAT but your time isn't now

[LessEyeTest]

Unless Gobert gets injured, he pretty much should be a lock for DPOY again

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Wemby... You are the future defensive GOAT but your time isn't now

I got Jokic in front of Gobert/Wemby because he's literally got a 109 DRTG despite being surrounded by absolute scrubs (defensively).

[cupcakesnake]

I got Jokic in front of Gobert/Wemby because he's literally got a 109 DRTG despite being surrounded by absolute scrubs (defensively).

I don't think KCP and Aaron Gordon are scrubs. They're amongst the best defenders at their position in the league.

But Jokic has been tremendous on defense this year. His versatility has been a lot better this year and that's allowed the Nuggets to play a way more adaptable style.

[LessEyeTest]

I got Jokic in front of Gobert/Wemby because he's literally got a 109 DRTG despite being surrounded by absolute scrubs (defensively).

I don't think KCP and Aaron Gordon are scrubs. They're amongst the best defenders at their position in the league.

But Jokic has been tremendous on defense this year. His versatility has been a lot better this year and that's allowed the Nuggets to play a way more adaptable style.

I was totally joking about that. Jokic is what he is - a limited but intelligent defensive player who requires a strong supporting cast around him. Sorry, my sarcasm sucked!

[basketballRob]

Looking at the schedule, Minnesota will probably end up 3rd or 4th in the west. Gobert may have enough cushion even if his numbers start to fall.

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[bisme37]

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[Mrakar]

Tyrese Haliburton tonight

0 points
2 rebounds
3 assists
1 turnover
-38 +/-

#notOnHerb

[kcktiny]

Jokic has been tremendous on defense this year

Watch him a lot, do ya?

Jokic is what he is - a limited but intelligent defensive player

You both realize that there is individual player defensive shot data at stats.nba.com do you not?

Right now (3-3-2024) it shows Jokic - among all Cs in the league having faced 200+ FGAs within 6' of the basket - as having allowed the highest/worst FG% at 64.7% (325/502). The best Cs like Gobert, Porzingis, and Kessler are allowing just a 48%-49% FG% from 0'-5'. That's a large 16%-17% difference compared to Jokic.

Even within 10' of the basket Jokic is 3rd highest/worst among Cs having faced 250+ FGAs at a 59.5% FG% allowed (393/661). Among Cs only Jonas Valanciunas and Nick Richards are higher/worse. The best Cs are again Gobert, Porzingis, and Kessler allowing a 47%-48% FG%. That's a large 12%-13% difference compared to Jokic.

And with Denver having already played 3/4 of their games this season those numbers won't be getting much better anytime soon.

Sorry but on a scale of tremendous/intelligent on defense versus a turnstile/traffic cone on defense Jokic is much closer to the latter.

Wonder how Jokic fanboys will try to spin this.

[cupcakesnake]

OG Anunoby is officially disqualified from awards ballots. Even if he returned for the Knicks next game and played every game left, he'd only hit 60.

He's averaged 61 games per season before this one. Basically he gets one medium-level injury every year.

[Chuck Everett]

I still have as my five man first-team unit:

F - Jalen McDaniels, Minnesota
F - Lu Dort, Oklahoma City
C - Rudy Gobert, Minnesota
G - Herb Jones, New Orleans
G - Derrick White, Boston

Every night, these guys take the challenge and just do their jobs.

Edit: I am willing to lose Herb Jones or Derrick White, if Alex Caruso can play another 14 games as well. He's played 51 of 60. We'll see if his body can hold up over the next 22.

[QPR]

Jokic has been tremendous on defense this year

Watch him a lot, do ya?

Jokic is what he is - a limited but intelligent defensive player

You both realize that there is individual player defensive shot data at stats.nba.com do you not?

Right now (3-3-2024) it shows Jokic - among all Cs in the league having faced 200+ FGAs within 6' of the basket - as having allowed the highest/worst FG% at 64.7% (325/502). The best Cs like Gobert, Porzingis, and Kessler are allowing just a 48%-49% FG% from 0'-5'. That's a large 16%-17% difference compared to Jokic.

Even within 10' of the basket Jokic is 3rd highest/worst among Cs having faced 250+ FGAs at a 59.5% FG% allowed (393/661). Among Cs only Jonas Valanciunas and Nick Richards are higher/worse. The best Cs are again Gobert, Porzingis, and Kessler allowing a 47%-48% FG%. That's a large 12%-13% difference compared to Jokic.

And with Denver having already played 3/4 of their games this season those numbers won't be getting much better anytime soon.

Sorry but on a scale of tremendous/intelligent on defense versus a turnstile/traffic cone on defense Jokic is much closer to the latter.

Wonder how Jokic fanboys will try to spin this.

I.dont think anyone has ever claimed Jokic is an imposing shot blocker or last line defender. His value is in deflections and strips using his quick hands and ability to read opponents. He's also an elite defensive rebounder.

You've specifically picked a metric that measures rim protectors and shot blockers to try and discredit Jokic, which he is obviously not going to excel in. That doesn't make him a poor overall defender.

[cupcakesnake]

Jokic has been tremendous on defense this year

Watch him a lot, do ya?

Jokic is what he is - a limited but intelligent defensive player

You both realize that there is individual player defensive shot data at stats.nba.com do you not?

Right now (3-3-2024) it shows Jokic - among all Cs in the league having faced 200+ FGAs within 6' of the basket - as having allowed the highest/worst FG% at 64.7% (325/502). The best Cs like Gobert, Porzingis, and Kessler are allowing just a 48%-49% FG% from 0'-5'. That's a large 16%-17% difference compared to Jokic.

Even within 10' of the basket Jokic is 3rd highest/worst among Cs having faced 250+ FGAs at a 59.5% FG% allowed (393/661). Among Cs only Jonas Valanciunas and Nick Richards are higher/worse. The best Cs are again Gobert, Porzingis, and Kessler allowing a 47%-48% FG%. That's a large 12%-13% difference compared to Jokic.

And with Denver having already played 3/4 of their games this season those numbers won't be getting much better anytime soon.

Sorry but on a scale of tremendous/intelligent on defense versus a turnstile/traffic cone on defense Jokic is much closer to the latter.

Wonder how Jokic fanboys will try to spin this.

It's don't love when people start their arguments with the assumption that the other person doesn't watch games. It's petulant and childish. If your goal is to make me look stupid, A) there are better ways to do it. B) Why? Why not just discuss basketball respectfully and for fun? Like... I can get a little condescending if I've been going back and forth with someone (or know them well) and they keep saying stupid things and not listening, but to do this after 1 post? I don't deserve this, lol.

I'm pretty sure that everyone and their grandma's know that Jokic is not a good defender at the rim. You don't even need the tracking stats to know that he has poor speed, zero verticality, and isn't a shot blocker. Like I said, everyone knows it. Telling me that Jokic is especially worse than the people who are literally the best at this isn't a revelation either. Anyone who watches him knows that if you get a shot at the rim against Jokic, you've already won. All his defensive focus is on preventing that. He knows he can't jump. (I'm not saying this is a good thing. Jokic has major defensive weaknesses that aren't in anyway subtle. In terms of rim protection he's definitely amongst the worst in the league amongst starting centers.

However, Jokic does have a lot of defensive strengths. He excels in a lot of defensive points per possession stats. He ranked super high in negative PPP both in drop coverage and coming to the level. He's become a lot more scheme versatile. He's in the 85th percentile in deflections. It's noticeable watching him that he coaxes players into bad decisions, deters shots, gets his hands on a lot of balls, keeps guys away from the rim, and is probably the best defensive rebounder in the league. Sure when you look at pure rim numbers, you see Jokic's main weakness, but when you watch him it's easy to see defense isn't about defending shots at the rim well, it's about preventing them altogether.

I don't have Jokic in the DPOY or all-defense discussion. I was responding to a user that made a joke about it. I don't have him in my top 10 defensive centers. He does some interesting things out there though, if you care to watch. I wouldn't know that though because I don't watch games, right?

[cupcakesnake]

I still have as my five man first-team unit:

F - Jalen McDaniels, Minnesota
F - Lu Dort, Oklahoma City
C - Rudy Gobert, Minnesota
G - Herb Jones, New Orleans
G - Derrick White, Boston

Every night, these guys take the challenge and just do their jobs.

Edit: I am willing to lose Herb Jones or Derrick White, if Alex Caruso can play another 14 games as well. He's played 51 of 60. We'll see if his body can hold up over the next 22.

I like the list.

Surprised Lu Dort is the guy you want to preserve here. I'd have Jones over Dort just because he's more versatile. Both are airtight defenders but Herb is way longer (3 inches taller, 4 inches longer wingspan), and a lot more disruptive off the ball.

Lu Dort is also definitely the guard defender in OKC. They put Jalen Williams on the bigger players (big wings and 4s) and put Lu Dort on the most perimeter oriented scorer. I know OKC is weird positionally, but just watching them I wouldn't put Dort in a forward spot for a defensive award. The guys is 6'3".

Right now my locks are White, Gobert, Jaden* McDaniels. Thinking Herb, Suggs, KCP, or Caruso for the other guard spot I'm not sure yet who to put in that forward spot. Sucks that so many guys wont be eligible due to injury (OG, Mobley, Draymond.) Unclear if Bam will have forward eligibility (he shouldn't lol). Giannis and Kawhi are reasonable default picks. I'm considering Herb (at forward), Aaron Gordon, Dillon Brooks, Jalen Willliams, and Jaren Jackson Jr. (Grizzlies quietly put up a top 10 defense this NBA despite being decimated with injuries)

[Que Rico]

If Herb isn't 1st team I'll riot . The Pels are 8th in defensive rating and he starts with 4 negative defensive players (Jonas is the best of the 4 but CJ, BI and especially Zion are bad on D). Dude covers up so much **** defense by himself.

[kcktiny]

Wonder how Jokic fanboys will try to spin this.

It clearly didn't take long.

You've specifically picked a metric that measures rim protectors and shot blockers to try and discredit Jokic

On the contrary I simply posted publicly available shot defense data. If Mr. Jokic does not want to be discredited maybe he should just play better shot defense.

As to picking a specific metric - what's more important on defense for a C that their shot defense? I like how some Jokic fanboys point to Jokic's high FG% on offense and compare that to the great Cs of the past, saying he is a much better shooter than they, but when you point out his poor FG% allowed defensive shot data it's only to discredit him? That's the definition of a fanboy.

That doesn't make him a poor overall defender.

Well it certainly doesn't make him a tremendous/intelligent defender either.

It's don't love when people start their arguments with the assumption that the other person doesn't watch games. It's petulant and childish.

There is a tendency for some here when shown to be wrong to attack immediately, rather than fess up to it.

If your goal is to make me look stupid

Dude you did that all by yourself:

Jokic has been tremendous on defense this year

Then:

Why not just discuss basketball respectfully and for fun?

I mentioned your statement was incorrect, and backed that up with publicly available data. It is you who is going off the deep end.

and they keep saying stupid things and not listening

Jokic is a poor shot defender for a C, especially within 10' of the basket. Now who is not listening?

but to do this after 1 post? I don't deserve this, lol.

If you do not want to be shown to be wrong, do not make posts that are easily refutable.

In a thread about the best defenders in the league, you called one of the worst shot defending Cs in the league a tremendous defender.

I was responding to a user that made a joke about it.

Ah, I get it. All in jest.

He does some interesting things out there though, if you care to watch.

Then when you do watch watch in particular what he does on defense, and not just what he does on offense (where he is great). On defense count the number of blow-bys he is responsible for, plays where he just give ups and lets an opponent get by him and score.

Then watch a Gobert or Kessler or Wembenyama and notice how they track players on defense and time their defensive efforts. You'll notice a huge difference.

[cupcakesnake]

Spoiler:

Wonder how Jokic fanboys will try to spin this.

It clearly didn't take long.

You've specifically picked a metric that measures rim protectors and shot blockers to try and discredit Jokic

On the contrary I simply posted publicly available shot defense data. If Mr. Jokic does not want to be discredited maybe he should just play better shot defense.

As to picking a specific metric - what's more important on defense for a C that their shot defense? I like how some Jokic fanboys point to Jokic's high FG% on offense and compare that to the great Cs of the past, saying he is a much better shooter than they, but when you point out his poor FG% allowed defensive shot data it's only to discredit him? That's the definition of a fanboy.

That doesn't make him a poor overall defender.

Well it certainly doesn't make him a tremendous/intelligent defender either.

It's don't love when people start their arguments with the assumption that the other person doesn't watch games. It's petulant and childish.

There is a tendency for some here when shown to be wrong to attack immediately, rather than fess up to it.

If your goal is to make me look stupid

Dude you did that all by yourself:

Jokic has been tremendous on defense this year

Then:

Why not just discuss basketball respectfully and for fun?

I mentioned your statement was incorrect, and backed that up with publicly available data. It is you who is going off the deep end.

and they keep saying stupid things and not listening

Jokic is a poor shot defender for a C, especially within 10' of the basket. Now who is not listening?

but to do this after 1 post? I don't deserve this, lol.

If you do not want to be shown to be wrong, do not make posts that are easily refutable.

In a thread about the best defenders in the league, you called one of the worst shot defending Cs in the league a tremendous defender.

I was responding to a user that made a joke about it.

Ah, I get it. All in jest.

He does some interesting things out there though, if you care to watch.

Then when you do watch watch in particular what he does on defense, and not just what he does on offense (where he is great). On defense count the number of blow-bys he is responsible for, plays where he just give ups and lets an opponent get by him and score.

Then watch a Gobert or Kessler or Wembenyama and notice how they track players on defense and time their defensive efforts. You'll notice a huge difference.

It's kind of difficult to reply to all this because you're cherry picking the statements you feel like responding to while ignoring my actual responses to you.

I agreed with you multiple times that Jokic is a bad rim protector. There's nothing more to discuss there. We both think that. I was never arguing against it. I said I wouldn't even have him in my top 10 defensive centers, so even my most favorable possible viewing of Jokic is that he's average overall. My point was that there are other things that are interesting and good about Jokic's defense.

If you feel that it's impossible to be a good defensive center without being a good rim protector, I think that's a perfectly valid opinion. It's pretty easy to make a data backed case that Jokic is somehow a positive on defense while clearly being a weak rim protector. Numbers can be noisey though and I'm fine with people being skeptical of that.

I don't get your line about me attacking you. You accused me of not watching basketball. I said I don't like when people do that. I did use the words "petulant and childish" lol so I do apologize for that. I have a problem moreso with the overall trend of people saying that too much "watch the games!" when I feel like most of the time I'm hearing it from people who might be watching less than me.

[cupcakesnake]

If Herb isn't 1st team I'll riot . The Pels are 8th in defensive rating and he starts with 4 negative defensive players (Jonas is the best of the 4 but CJ, BI and especially Zion are bad on D). Dude covers up so much **** defense by himself.

It doesn't get talked about enough. There should honestly be a DPOY campaign for him. Not saying it would be THE campaign that wins, but I'd at least like to hear some noise!

I think people lean on the on/off for defense a lot, because it's easy to look up and an easy concept to understand. If the team is good at defense with you on the floor, and bad when you're off, then I can give you all the credit! So, Herb's on/off is pretty pedestrian (112.5 Drtg on, 114.5 off) so what gives? I call this the "Shawn Marion Paradox" (lol no I don't, I just made that up right now and it sounds dumb). Good defenders who prop up weak defensive lineups historically get less credit that good defenders that are part of good defensive lineups, and it's because of the on/off and every defensive metric that uses on/off.

The Pelicans play most of their good defenders off the bench, and ask Herb to keep the defense afloat in a starting lineup where every other player is out there for offense first. Whenever Herb plays in lineups with Trey Murphy, Dyson Daniels or Jose Alvarado, those lineups are elite defensive. For every starter except Herb, the Pelicans play better defense when they're off the floor. Every bench piece (Trey, Nance, Alvarado, Naji, Dyson when healthy) out defend the starter in front of them.

Some metrics try to account for this and Herb still looks the part of an elite defender. But he'd be popping even more if he weren't asked to absorb all the bad defense of so many guys.