The Defense thread 2024 (Final DPOY vote)

[basketballRob]

I don't think defensive numbers are as good at offensive numbers at telling us who is more impactful than who. Whenever we're using numbers to prop up our defensive player of the year, it seems like everyone uses different puzzle pieces or finds the specific niche stats that paint a player the best, and try to push that as evidence.

But I do think over the past 5-8 years we've been able to use more numbers to at least figure out who the elite defenders in the league are. I just came across a little tiktok video that tried to list the best 20 defenders using 10 different stats in 3 different categories:

Advanced Metrics - EPM, Win Shares, Defensive Rating
At Rim Defense - Box outs, rebounds, Opponent FG% within 6 feet, blocks
Open Court Defense - Steals, contested 3-pointers, loose balls recovered

While I didn't agree with the methodology to create a ranking (how do you weigh these metrics against each other), I was surprised to see their top 20 really was a strong list of all the guys we've talked about all year.
(the ranking doesn't account for games played).

1. Embiid
2. Bam
3. Mobley
4. AD
5. Wemby
6. Porzingis
7. Caruso
8. Gobert
9. iHart
10. OG
11. Kawhi
12. Giannis
13. Jrue
14. Jaylen Brown
15. Shai
16. Chet
17. Draymond
18. Paul George
19. Derrick White
20. Herb

Like that's not my personal order but this is a really good list of "vaguely the 20 best defenders in the NBA". I kind of slept on Jaylen Brown all year and he wouldn't be on my list due to my established opinion on him, but I've seen some footage and stats that indicate he's taken a serious as a help defender.

I was surprised not to see Tatum, JJJ and a couple other guys but man I just feel like we've come a long way talking about individual defense, even if it's still not on the level of offense.

The Magic has the #3 defense and has 2 players near the top of the defensive EPM list but didn't make this list. Those rankings are a little questionable.


Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Que Rico]

I love Wemby but the best defender is not anchoring a 20-61 team, not his fault, but if you want individual awards, your defense/offense needs to help in the win column. Just my opinion.

Spot on Chuck

[Que Rico]

I don't think defensive numbers are as good at offensive numbers at telling us who is more impactful than who. Whenever we're using numbers to prop up our defensive player of the year, it seems like everyone uses different puzzle pieces or finds the specific niche stats that paint a player the best, and try to push that as evidence.

But I do think over the past 5-8 years we've been able to use more numbers to at least figure out who the elite defenders in the league are. I just came across a little tiktok video that tried to list the best 20 defenders using 10 different stats in 3 different categories:

Advanced Metrics - EPM, Win Shares, Defensive Rating
At Rim Defense - Box outs, rebounds, Opponent FG% within 6 feet, blocks
Open Court Defense - Steals, contested 3-pointers, loose balls recovered

While I didn't agree with the methodology to create a ranking (how do you weigh these metrics against each other), I was surprised to see their top 20 really was a strong list of all the guys we've talked about all year.
(the ranking doesn't account for games played).

1. Embiid
2. Bam
3. Mobley
4. AD
5. Wemby
6. Porzingis
7. Caruso
8. Gobert
9. iHart
10. OG
11. Kawhi
12. Giannis
13. Jrue
14. Jaylen Brown
15. Shai
16. Chet
17. Draymond
18. Paul George
19. Derrick White
20. Herb

Like that's not my personal order but this is a really good list of "vaguely the 20 best defenders in the NBA". I kind of slept on Jaylen Brown all year and he wouldn't be on my list due to my established opinion on him, but I've seen some footage and stats that indicate he's taken a serious as a help defender.

I was surprised not to see Tatum, JJJ and a couple other guys but man I just feel like we've come a long way talking about individual defense, even if it's still not on the level of offense.

The Magic has the #3 defense and has 2 players near the top of the defensive EPM list but didn't make this list. Those rankings are a little questionable.


Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Suggs automatically disqualified for too much acting. If Isaac played more minutes he's definitely top 10.

[basketballRob]

I don't think defensive numbers are as good at offensive numbers at telling us who is more impactful than who. Whenever we're using numbers to prop up our defensive player of the year, it seems like everyone uses different puzzle pieces or finds the specific niche stats that paint a player the best, and try to push that as evidence.

But I do think over the past 5-8 years we've been able to use more numbers to at least figure out who the elite defenders in the league are. I just came across a little tiktok video that tried to list the best 20 defenders using 10 different stats in 3 different categories:

Advanced Metrics - EPM, Win Shares, Defensive Rating
At Rim Defense - Box outs, rebounds, Opponent FG% within 6 feet, blocks
Open Court Defense - Steals, contested 3-pointers, loose balls recovered

While I didn't agree with the methodology to create a ranking (how do you weigh these metrics against each other), I was surprised to see their top 20 really was a strong list of all the guys we've talked about all year.
(the ranking doesn't account for games played).

1. Embiid
2. Bam
3. Mobley
4. AD
5. Wemby
6. Porzingis
7. Caruso
8. Gobert
9. iHart
10. OG
11. Kawhi
12. Giannis
13. Jrue
14. Jaylen Brown
15. Shai
16. Chet
17. Draymond
18. Paul George
19. Derrick White
20. Herb

Like that's not my personal order but this is a really good list of "vaguely the 20 best defenders in the NBA". I kind of slept on Jaylen Brown all year and he wouldn't be on my list due to my established opinion on him, but I've seen some footage and stats that indicate he's taken a serious as a help defender.

I was surprised not to see Tatum, JJJ and a couple other guys but man I just feel like we've come a long way talking about individual defense, even if it's still not on the level of offense.

The Magic has the #3 defense and has 2 players near the top of the defensive EPM list but didn't make this list. Those rankings are a little questionable.


Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Suggs automatically disqualified for too much acting. If Isaac played more minutes he's definitely top 10.

Sounds like Suggs is getting under your skin.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Que Rico]

The Magic has the #3 defense and has 2 players near the top of the defensive EPM list but didn't make this list. Those rankings are a little questionable.


Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Suggs automatically disqualified for too much acting. If Isaac played more minutes he's definitely top 10.

Sounds like Suggs is getting under your skin.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Fútbol is my favorite sport.......I know when a player is a top drawer diver

[basketballRob]

Suggs automatically disqualified for too much acting. If Isaac played more minutes he's definitely top 10.

Sounds like Suggs is getting under your skin.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Fútbol is my favorite sport.......I know when a player is a top drawer diver

Suggs flops because that's how they call the game against him when he defends. The refs call fouls when players exaggerate the contact.

Suggs should be first team all defense. If he doesn't make that's fine, he's proved this season how good he's going to be. He's better than Jrue or Chauncey Billups at the same age.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[cupcakesnake]

I don't think defensive numbers are as good at offensive numbers at telling us who is more impactful than who. Whenever we're using numbers to prop up our defensive player of the year, it seems like everyone uses different puzzle pieces or finds the specific niche stats that paint a player the best, and try to push that as evidence.

But I do think over the past 5-8 years we've been able to use more numbers to at least figure out who the elite defenders in the league are. I just came across a little tiktok video that tried to list the best 20 defenders using 10 different stats in 3 different categories:

Advanced Metrics - EPM, Win Shares, Defensive Rating
At Rim Defense - Box outs, rebounds, Opponent FG% within 6 feet, blocks
Open Court Defense - Steals, contested 3-pointers, loose balls recovered

While I didn't agree with the methodology to create a ranking (how do you weigh these metrics against each other), I was surprised to see their top 20 really was a strong list of all the guys we've talked about all year.
(the ranking doesn't account for games played).

1. Embiid
2. Bam
3. Mobley
4. AD
5. Wemby
6. Porzingis
7. Caruso
8. Gobert
9. iHart
10. OG
11. Kawhi
12. Giannis
13. Jrue
14. Jaylen Brown
15. Shai
16. Chet
17. Draymond
18. Paul George
19. Derrick White
20. Herb

Like that's not my personal order but this is a really good list of "vaguely the 20 best defenders in the NBA". I kind of slept on Jaylen Brown all year and he wouldn't be on my list due to my established opinion on him, but I've seen some footage and stats that indicate he's taken a serious as a help defender.

I was surprised not to see Tatum, JJJ and a couple other guys but man I just feel like we've come a long way talking about individual defense, even if it's still not on the level of offense.

The Magic has the #3 defense and has 2 players near the top of the defensive EPM list but didn't make this list. Those rankings are a little questionable.


Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

I am surprised to not see Suggs here. For all we know he could be #21 or #22 on this list, so it's hard to discredit the list just for that.

Isaac is obviously not going to make any list that uses any kind of totals metric. Out of the 10 metrics, 7 of them are accumulative totals, so there's basically no way Isaac makes it. He's played under 900 minutes this season. He has 2 defensive win shares and only 67 blocks. A list like this just isn't going to capture the defensive impact of a guy who averaged 15mpg in under 60 games. His impact is only captured in rate based things rather than totals.

[cupcakesnake]

Sounds like Suggs is getting under your skin.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Fútbol is my favorite sport.......I know when a player is a top drawer diver

Suggs flops because that's how they call the game against him when he defends. The refs call fouls when players exaggerate the contact.

Suggs should be first team all defense. If he doesn't make that's fine, he's proved this season how good he's going to be. He's better than Jrue or Chauncey Billups at the same age.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Suggs was the best under 6'4" defender in the league this year. Absolute maniac. Someone not like his theatrics doesn't detract from that.