NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 4: MVP Thread's Revenge)

[AleksandarN]

I vote for Jokic over Luka this season but less turnover cannot be an argument here. The scoring 7.9ppg difference between these two is bigger than that between Jokic and Devin Vassell, who only turns the ball over 1.5 per game.

I guess I could have used advanced stats to make a point.

Read on Twitter

That's the point. There are actual good arguments out there

Well to be fair I was arguing with someone who didn’t want to use advanced stats and only wanted to use “raw numbers”. Was hoping he would use advanced stats to argue against my points. Sadly you replied first. My point is raw stats don’t tell the whole truth on who is the most valuable player to their teams. Like trying to convince people having more ppg makes the player more valueble and better than another player

[CobraCommander]

Sure, Jokic and Denver were better than a Mavs team with Dwight Powell at their main center and with Kyrie out for most of the first part of season.
After the Gafford-PJ trade though and with Kyrie now fully fit, things are surprisingly (lol) not quite the same as we saw in the last Mavs-Nuggets game....and even now, I'd argue Joker has still a better team around him than Luka.

You too hyped to be a guy that doesn’t play ball for the Mavs or have a vested interest in that man’s life.

In my OPINION Luka isn’t the best player on earth - not top 3 somewhere between 4 and 5…. Could be lower depending on the game.

I never thought Harden - who shot better when he was at his peak and a better passer at his peak as well, he was never the best player in the league ever either.

Luka is fun to watch and we all love Luka but to not bow to him isn’t blasphemy unless you actually think he is Luka god.

Oh great, another guy who thinks Luka is the new Harden.....
The only problem in your comparaison is that while their styles are effectively very similar, one has proven in only 5/6 years in the league that he is already (much) more clutch and a better PO performer than Harden in his whole career (and I obviously recognize Harden's talent).

And more significantly, he has already proven that he can inspire a team around him to give everything for him contrary to Harden (just look at his teammates reactions in the dressing room after the buzzer beater in PO against the Clippers or after the 73pts game....call me back if you've ever seen Harden's teammates showing so much appreciation to him as they had to Luka).

Ok so you must be new here - I’m not emotionally invested either way-

Harden’s best years were better than Luka’s - advance stats - harden actually has a MVP and a few runner ups - led league in points per game and assist while shooting better splits than Luka - but again like I said - I got Luka somewhere between 4 and 5 on my list of current players.

Luka played better in playoffs than harden but the mvp is a reg season award so?

When harden was at his peak and Luka currently both shoot too much to get the other guys involved and play too little defense to win a championship- their die hard fans talk about their teammates but their teammates aren’t getting the ball when they putting up 22-23 shots a game and 10+ 3s some contested and step backs -

I swear I don’t get how Luka mj Kobe and lbj fans exist in a world where opinions are all people have on the subject of who is better and they always find some reason to be mad that someone isn’t worshipping their guy-

Here is my take

Jokic best player on earth and mvp and reining champion

Giannis second best player on earth - learning how to win with Dame and since he has all the hardware of HOF career already and he is still young, rings are all that matter

Embiid is the 3rd best player on earth and probably would have won scoring title and mvp this year cause this dude can stat it up like no one else in the nba but sucks in playoffs

Luka and SGA are a toss up and not depends on the day- sga is a much better defender leader and quality shot taker he gets you 30 a night and NO drama- comes in shape and comes across like the dude you would be ok dating your sister or your daughter - and definitely is a class act as a teammate and a face of your franchise- Tim Duncan and Kawhi found their long lost cousin. No techs just ball- like most of the best Americans … he is Canadian (for now but we recruiting)

Luka - great scorer - horrible coach- big game hunter - wants the smoke with everyone at all times and I’m here for it. Christmas game - check - battles in playoffs with Kawhi- check - beef with an equivalent star check- horrible coach - pretty much horrible attitude - needs to get in shape and doesn’t play a lick of defense but everyone that watches ball knows that when Luka - first gets in elite wing shape, gets a coach with a brain, commits to defense (we see flashes) and learns how to get his guys involved - he is going to come for the top 10 all time… if he doesn’t do that - he is gonna be the nique or tmac of the Kobe Shaq MJ era - being ungodly talented ain’t enough - Luka talent elite but everyone in the top 5 is

Jokic elite plus everything else - so is Giannis I don’t think Dallas has a worse roster than Milwaukee and god knows doc sucks - but Giannis gonna have them making noise in playoffs if he healthy - Luka been healthy and the Mavs in 7th - Being a great player ain’t enough - see Jordan before phill and honestly Lebron before Miami

[Doctor MJ]

You are kinda presenting being pre-season favourite as going against Luka.

To win MVP you first need to have a fantastic season and then have a team good enough. Both normally don't happen when you're around 20 years old.

He would have been on GOAT trajectory if he had won those MVPs. Maybe expectations were a bit too high? Being in 5 consecutive first Nba teams is still kinda good for 25 years old player, don't you think?

It's outstanding for any age, but I think expectations are still too high and this has everything to do with why Luka is so discussed in a thread for an award he really doesn't have a chance to win.

He might had a chance to win MVP, if Mavs were as lucky with injuries as OKC or if they got better defenders in preseason not only in February. That's why age matters a lot. More years in the league more chances that everything goes right. And you are forgetting his age deliberately.

Re: he might have had a chance if... There was never a time where it made sense to talk about him as a top MVP candidate based on the season to that point. All of the pro-Luka discussion here has been based on either a) hope that things were going to get much better soon, b) judging players based on big box score, or c) both.

Re: forgetting his age. I'm just a dude has been paying attention for years talkin' to a lot of folks who don't seem to want to acknowledge those previous years. It'd be one thing if I were talking to folks who recognized the prior disappointments and were emphasizing that this season was completely different (and noting his precocious age as reason to expect this), but that's really never been my experience with Luka supporters. Not that Luka supporters are utterly alone on this - it's a dedicated passion that tends to come with players that have huge scoring numbers generally. The fans of the Wilts/Jordans/Kobes/Joels/Lukas tend to be extremely devoted.

[Bob8]

It's outstanding for any age, but I think expectations are still too high and this has everything to do with why Luka is so discussed in a thread for an award he really doesn't have a chance to win.

He might had a chance to win MVP, if Mavs were as lucky with injuries as OKC or if they got better defenders in preseason not only in February. That's why age matters a lot. More years in the league more chances that everything goes right. And you are forgetting his age deliberately.

Re: he might have had a chance if... There was never a time where it made sense to talk about him as a top MVP candidate based on the season to that point. All of the pro-Luka discussion here has been based on either a) hope that things were going to get much better soon, b) judging players based on big box score, or c) both.

Re: forgetting his age. I'm just a dude has been paying attention for years talkin' to a lot of folks who don't seem to want to acknowledge those previous years. It'd be one thing if I were talking to folks who recognized the prior disappointments and were emphasizing that this season was completely different (and noting his precocious age as reason to expect this), but that's really never been my experience with Luka supporters. Not that Luka supporters are utterly alone on this - it's a dedicated passion that tends to come with players that have huge scoring numbers generally. The fans of the Wilts/Jordans/Kobes/Joels/Lukas tend to be extremely devoted.

I would say that Mavs' supporters, not necessarily Luka's,
Is extremely pleased with him. Because they understand that nobody could have won a title with roster Mavs had in previous years. And knowledgeable basketball observer like you should understand that having good enough team is very important for winning MVP too. And there our problem is, we both agree that team success is crucial for getting MVP award, but you deliberately ignore how crucial are good teammates for having great +/-. Not only good teammates on the paper, but those that actually play games. And you can't play great basketball and have team success, if your most used lineup played 99 minutes together.

Yes age is important. Jokic is now considered as clearly the best in the league and he was nowhere close to that, when he was Luka's age.

Luka is the best scorer in the league and will finish 4th at worst, sure he should be talked about in MVP thread. You would talk only about Jokic and SGA, who btw. nobody is taking seriously?

[AleksandarN]

He might had a chance to win MVP, if Mavs were as lucky with injuries as OKC or if they got better defenders in preseason not only in February. That's why age matters a lot. More years in the league more chances that everything goes right. And you are forgetting his age deliberately.

Re: he might have had a chance if... There was never a time where it made sense to talk about him as a top MVP candidate based on the season to that point. All of the pro-Luka discussion here has been based on either a) hope that things were going to get much better soon, b) judging players based on big box score, or c) both.

Re: forgetting his age. I'm just a dude has been paying attention for years talkin' to a lot of folks who don't seem to want to acknowledge those previous years. It'd be one thing if I were talking to folks who recognized the prior disappointments and were emphasizing that this season was completely different (and noting his precocious age as reason to expect this), but that's really never been my experience with Luka supporters. Not that Luka supporters are utterly alone on this - it's a dedicated passion that tends to come with players that have huge scoring numbers generally. The fans of the Wilts/Jordans/Kobes/Joels/Lukas tend to be extremely devoted.

I would say that Mavs' supporters, not necessarily Luka's,
Is extremely pleased with him. Because they understand that nobody could have won a title with roster Mavs had in previous years. And knowledgeable basketball observer like you should understand that having good enough team is very important for winning MVP too. And there our problem is, we both agree that team success is crucial for getting MVP award, but you deliberately ignore how important are good teammates for having great +/-. Not only good teammates on the paper, but those that actually play games. And you can't play great basketball and have team success, if your most used lineup played 99 minutes together.

Yes age is important. Jokic is now considered as clearly the best in the league and he was nowhere close to that, when he was Luka's age.

Luka is the best scorer in the league and will finish 4th at worst, sure he should be talked about in MVP thread.

There was a lot of people said Jokic was best player in the league when he won his first mvp at 25/26. Some in the main stream media tried to slander him though. I am looking at you Nick Wright

[Bob8]

Re: he might have had a chance if... There was never a time where it made sense to talk about him as a top MVP candidate based on the season to that point. All of the pro-Luka discussion here has been based on either a) hope that things were going to get much better soon, b) judging players based on big box score, or c) both.

Re: forgetting his age. I'm just a dude has been paying attention for years talkin' to a lot of folks who don't seem to want to acknowledge those previous years. It'd be one thing if I were talking to folks who recognized the prior disappointments and were emphasizing that this season was completely different (and noting his precocious age as reason to expect this), but that's really never been my experience with Luka supporters. Not that Luka supporters are utterly alone on this - it's a dedicated passion that tends to come with players that have huge scoring numbers generally. The fans of the Wilts/Jordans/Kobes/Joels/Lukas tend to be extremely devoted.

I would say that Mavs' supporters, not necessarily Luka's,
Is extremely pleased with him. Because they understand that nobody could have won a title with roster Mavs had in previous years. And knowledgeable basketball observer like you should understand that having good enough team is very important for winning MVP too. And there our problem is, we both agree that team success is crucial for getting MVP award, but you deliberately ignore how important are good teammates for having great +/-. Not only good teammates on the paper, but those that actually play games. And you can't play great basketball and have team success, if your most used lineup played 99 minutes together.

Yes age is important. Jokic is now considered as clearly the best in the league and he was nowhere close to that, when he was Luka's age.

Luka is the best scorer in the league and will finish 4th at worst, sure he should be talked about in MVP thread.

There was a lot of people said Jokic was best player in the league when he won his first mvp at 25/26. Some in the main stream media tried to slander him though. I am looking at you Nick Wright

Jokic was 9th when he was 25 years old as Luka is now. Doctor MJ would say not good enough to even write a single word in MVP thread about him.

[Infinite Llamas]

There can be many truths simultaneously…

SGA has been on a dominant team without many injuries

Luka has been fantastic on a team riddled with injuries

Giannis could have been a contender if Griffin had never been hired

Embiid could have won if he never got hurt.

Tatum could win if his individual stats were more inflated.

All these things can be true at the same time, but it’s also fair to admit that Jokic has had the perfect blend of stats/team success/narrative with the championship last year. Any of these guys could win it in any other year, but Jokic being so consistent and dominant has overcome some individually great seasons from these guys. There’s absolutely no fault in losing to a guy who is on a top-10 all time projection.

[AleksandarN]

I would say that Mavs' supporters, not necessarily Luka's,
Is extremely pleased with him. Because they understand that nobody could have won a title with roster Mavs had in previous years. And knowledgeable basketball observer like you should understand that having good enough team is very important for winning MVP too. And there our problem is, we both agree that team success is crucial for getting MVP award, but you deliberately ignore how important are good teammates for having great +/-. Not only good teammates on the paper, but those that actually play games. And you can't play great basketball and have team success, if your most used lineup played 99 minutes together.

Yes age is important. Jokic is now considered as clearly the best in the league and he was nowhere close to that, when he was Luka's age.

Luka is the best scorer in the league and will finish 4th at worst, sure he should be talked about in MVP thread.

There was a lot of people said Jokic was best player in the league when he won his first mvp at 25/26. Some in the main stream media tried to slander him though. I am looking at you Nick Wright

Jokic was 9th when he was 25 years old as Luka is now. Doctor MJ would say not good enough to even write a single word in MVP thread about him.

At the start of his first mvp season he was 25. That’s why I said 25/26.

[MoneyTalks41890]

Shaq not doing any favors here just repeating the one thing

The better arguments are that SGA is significantly more efficient than Luka (64.1% TS versus 61.4%), more available (11 percent more games played), on a team with a better record, and a better defender than both Luka and Joker, though that’s one of the few things he has on Joker.

Jokic is still above SGA. Then it’s SGA to me. Luka is incredible but doesn’t have the argument this year.

Read on Twitter

[dygaction]

You too hyped to be a guy that doesn’t play ball for the Mavs or have a vested interest in that man’s life.

In my OPINION Luka isn’t the best player on earth - not top 3 somewhere between 4 and 5…. Could be lower depending on the game.

I never thought Harden - who shot better when he was at his peak and a better passer at his peak as well, he was never the best player in the league ever either.

Luka is fun to watch and we all love Luka but to not bow to him isn’t blasphemy unless you actually think he is Luka god.

Oh great, another guy who thinks Luka is the new Harden.....
The only problem in your comparaison is that while their styles are effectively very similar, one has proven in only 5/6 years in the league that he is already (much) more clutch and a better PO performer than Harden in his whole career (and I obviously recognize Harden's talent).

And more significantly, he has already proven that he can inspire a team around him to give everything for him contrary to Harden (just look at his teammates reactions in the dressing room after the buzzer beater in PO against the Clippers or after the 73pts game....call me back if you've ever seen Harden's teammates showing so much appreciation to him as they had to Luka).

Ok so you must be new here - I’m not emotionally invested either way-

Harden’s best years were better than Luka’s - advance stats - harden actually has a MVP and a few runner ups - led league in points per game and assist while shooting better splits than Luka - but again like I said - I got Luka somewhere between 4 and 5 on my list of current players.

Luka played better in playoffs than harden but the mvp is a reg season award so?

When harden was at his peak and Luka currently both shoot too much to get the other guys involved and play too little defense to win a championship- their die hard fans talk about their teammates but their teammates aren’t getting the ball when they putting up 22-23 shots a game and 10+ 3s some contested and step backs -

I swear I don’t get how Luka mj Kobe and lbj fans exist in a world where opinions are all people have on the subject of who is better and they always find some reason to be mad that someone isn’t worshipping their guy-

Here is my take

Jokic best player on earth and mvp and reining champion

Giannis second best player on earth - learning how to win with Dame and since he has all the hardware of HOF career already and he is still young, rings are all that matter

Embiid is the 3rd best player on earth and probably would have won scoring title and mvp this year cause this dude can stat it up like no one else in the nba but sucks in playoffs

Luka and SGA are a toss up and not depends on the day- sga is a much better defender leader and quality shot taker he gets you 30 a night and NO drama- comes in shape and comes across like the dude you would be ok dating your sister or your daughter - and definitely is a class act as a teammate and a face of your franchise- Tim Duncan and Kawhi found their long lost cousin. No techs just ball- like most of the best Americans … he is Canadian (for now but we recruiting)

Luka - great scorer - horrible coach- big game hunter - wants the smoke with everyone at all times and I’m here for it. Christmas game - check - battles in playoffs with Kawhi- check - beef with an equivalent star check- horrible coach - pretty much horrible attitude - needs to get in shape and doesn’t play a lick of defense but everyone that watches ball knows that when Luka - first gets in elite wing shape, gets a coach with a brain, commits to defense (we see flashes) and learns how to get his guys involved - he is going to come for the top 10 all time… if he doesn’t do that - he is gonna be the nique or tmac of the Kobe Shaq MJ era - being ungodly talented ain’t enough - Luka talent elite but everyone in the top 5 is

Jokic elite plus everything else - so is Giannis I don’t think Dallas has a worse roster than Milwaukee and god knows doc sucks - but Giannis gonna have them making noise in playoffs if he healthy - Luka been healthy and the Mavs in 7th - Being a great player ain’t enough - see Jordan before phill and honestly Lebron before Miami

You have been literally worshipping Giannis and Joker since they won... it is more like you have justified confidence and can be more entitled since your guys won, the same as Kobe fans laughed at LeBron's from 04-12...

[Doctor MJ]

He might had a chance to win MVP, if Mavs were as lucky with injuries as OKC or if they got better defenders in preseason not only in February. That's why age matters a lot. More years in the league more chances that everything goes right. And you are forgetting his age deliberately.

Re: he might have had a chance if... There was never a time where it made sense to talk about him as a top MVP candidate based on the season to that point. All of the pro-Luka discussion here has been based on either a) hope that things were going to get much better soon, b) judging players based on big box score, or c) both.

Re: forgetting his age. I'm just a dude has been paying attention for years talkin' to a lot of folks who don't seem to want to acknowledge those previous years. It'd be one thing if I were talking to folks who recognized the prior disappointments and were emphasizing that this season was completely different (and noting his precocious age as reason to expect this), but that's really never been my experience with Luka supporters. Not that Luka supporters are utterly alone on this - it's a dedicated passion that tends to come with players that have huge scoring numbers generally. The fans of the Wilts/Jordans/Kobes/Joels/Lukas tend to be extremely devoted.

I would say that Mavs' supporters, not necessarily Luka's,
Is extremely pleased with him. Because they understand that nobody could have won a title with roster Mavs had in previous years. And knowledgeable basketball observer like you should understand that having good enough team is very important for winning MVP too. And there our problem is, we both agree that team success is crucial for getting MVP award, but you deliberately ignore how crucial are good teammates for having great +/-. Not only good teammates on the paper, but those that actually play games. And you can't play great basketball and have team success, if your most used lineup played 99 minutes together.

Yes age is important. Jokic is now considered as clearly the best in the league and he was nowhere close to that, when he was Luka's age.

Luka is the best scorer in the league and will finish 4th at worst, sure he should be talked about in MVP thread. You would talk only about Jokic and SGA, who btw. nobody is taking seriously?

In terms of drawing the distinction between team and player supporters, I do think that's a worthwhile thing. Speaking as someone born in LA, watching Kobe fans come to dominate Laker discussion with their player-oriented mindset was eye-opening.

I'd expect traditional Mavs fans to be very grateful to have a talent like Luka on their team, relatively realistic in their expectations for Luka and the Mavs...and not likely to be in this thread talking primarily about Luka.

Re: deliberately ignore good teammates crucial for getting great +/-. On the contrary, every time you say something like this I point out that impact stats are more than raw +/- and that there are plenty of guys who look great on mediocre teams by them historically, with Kevin Garnett being the classic example. We know what it looks like when you have terrible, terrible luck with team context, and that's not what Luka's had. If Luka's impact data looked like Garnett's in Minny, you wouldn't see me bringing up +/- concerns.

Re: Jokic best player now but not close to that at Luka's age. Hmm. Well fundamentally if we can just come to the agreement that Luka ain't there yet but he might get there in the future, that's probably the most important point.

Where I'd disagree with you on a bigger scale is that Jokic has shown great impact data basically from the moment he came to the NBA while Luka's really not shown that same sort of thing, and trying to explain this away by talking about teammates really doesn't work for me because we have metrics that normalize for the stuff that folks here bring up.

My general perspective here is that Jokic plays a very, very different style of play from Doncic - or anyone else for that matter, but people tend to think of Jokic & Doncic as similar because they're Eastern European white guys with tremendous basketball brains who can make great passes. Understandable the confusion, but to me it's a difference along the lines of Association football vs modern Gridiron football where Jokic is something of a Cruijff-like conductor, while Doncic (as well as LeBron, Harden, Young, etc) is more of a Brady-like quarterback. It's not at all clear that a conductor-based approach is more optimal for modern basketball than a quarterback-based approach in terms of how good each can be if you build around it, but I think the conductor-approach can more easily add little bits of value on every possession whereas the theory of the quarterback approach is that you want to have as much control as possible put in the hands of the guy who is the most dangerous with the ball in his hands.

[Doctor MJ]

I would say that Mavs' supporters, not necessarily Luka's,
Is extremely pleased with him. Because they understand that nobody could have won a title with roster Mavs had in previous years. And knowledgeable basketball observer like you should understand that having good enough team is very important for winning MVP too. And there our problem is, we both agree that team success is crucial for getting MVP award, but you deliberately ignore how important are good teammates for having great +/-. Not only good teammates on the paper, but those that actually play games. And you can't play great basketball and have team success, if your most used lineup played 99 minutes together.

Yes age is important. Jokic is now considered as clearly the best in the league and he was nowhere close to that, when he was Luka's age.

Luka is the best scorer in the league and will finish 4th at worst, sure he should be talked about in MVP thread.

There was a lot of people said Jokic was best player in the league when he won his first mvp at 25/26. Some in the main stream media tried to slander him though. I am looking at you Nick Wright

Jokic was 9th when he was 25 years old as Luka is now. Doctor MJ would say not good enough to even write a single word in MVP thread about him.

To be clear: My issue here isn't that Doncic shouldn't even be mentioned in the thread, but that it's extremely telling that more has probably been written about him here than someone like Shai who is part of the same draft class and has a better chance at winning the award.

I'd have to go back and look at threads from back then, but I certainly don't recall anywhere near this amount of discussion of Jokic in an MVP thread until '20-21 when he won it, and that gets into what I think is a big part of what's gone on with Doncic that I haven't really been speaking to here:

Beginning in Luka's 2nd year, the dude started to get hyped in a truly generational-prospect type of way that Jokic literally never was seen as. I'm not saying Luka didn't deserve the hype - it was one of the great 2nd years in all of NBA history - but such success so early on a player who was already seen as a candidate for "the next great" before he was drafted can't help but be formative in the minds of basketball fans.

So when I talk about big scoring and big box scores as if it's just the nature of the data that's causing this sort of passion, that's missing a pretty big component of things. People have gotten an expectation that Luka would be "the great player of the next era", and when this hasn't come to a consensus conclusion of yay or nay, it's tending to lead to polarization. And so you have me, someone who was excited about Luka before he got to the NBA, now getting used to taking the skeptical side of debates that pertain to him, and running a risk of generating actual antipathy toward him simply by proximity to the emotional charge of that polarization.

For the record, I don't want to be biased against Luka and I don't want to be biased against, or for, anyone else.
I see false knowledge in my personal ontology as something to root out and burn.

[CobraCommander]

Oh great, another guy who thinks Luka is the new Harden.....
The only problem in your comparaison is that while their styles are effectively very similar, one has proven in only 5/6 years in the league that he is already (much) more clutch and a better PO performer than Harden in his whole career (and I obviously recognize Harden's talent).

And more significantly, he has already proven that he can inspire a team around him to give everything for him contrary to Harden (just look at his teammates reactions in the dressing room after the buzzer beater in PO against the Clippers or after the 73pts game....call me back if you've ever seen Harden's teammates showing so much appreciation to him as they had to Luka).

Ok so you must be new here - I’m not emotionally invested either way-

Harden’s best years were better than Luka’s - advance stats - harden actually has a MVP and a few runner ups - led league in points per game and assist while shooting better splits than Luka - but again like I said - I got Luka somewhere between 4 and 5 on my list of current players.

Luka played better in playoffs than harden but the mvp is a reg season award so?

When harden was at his peak and Luka currently both shoot too much to get the other guys involved and play too little defense to win a championship- their die hard fans talk about their teammates but their teammates aren’t getting the ball when they putting up 22-23 shots a game and 10+ 3s some contested and step backs -

I swear I don’t get how Luka mj Kobe and lbj fans exist in a world where opinions are all people have on the subject of who is better and they always find some reason to be mad that someone isn’t worshipping their guy-

Here is my take

Jokic best player on earth and mvp and reining champion

Giannis second best player on earth - learning how to win with Dame and since he has all the hardware of HOF career already and he is still young, rings are all that matter

Embiid is the 3rd best player on earth and probably would have won scoring title and mvp this year cause this dude can stat it up like no one else in the nba but sucks in playoffs

Luka and SGA are a toss up and not depends on the day- sga is a much better defender leader and quality shot taker he gets you 30 a night and NO drama- comes in shape and comes across like the dude you would be ok dating your sister or your daughter - and definitely is a class act as a teammate and a face of your franchise- Tim Duncan and Kawhi found their long lost cousin. No techs just ball- like most of the best Americans … he is Canadian (for now but we recruiting)

Luka - great scorer - horrible coach- big game hunter - wants the smoke with everyone at all times and I’m here for it. Christmas game - check - battles in playoffs with Kawhi- check - beef with an equivalent star check- horrible coach - pretty much horrible attitude - needs to get in shape and doesn’t play a lick of defense but everyone that watches ball knows that when Luka - first gets in elite wing shape, gets a coach with a brain, commits to defense (we see flashes) and learns how to get his guys involved - he is going to come for the top 10 all time… if he doesn’t do that - he is gonna be the nique or tmac of the Kobe Shaq MJ era - being ungodly talented ain’t enough - Luka talent elite but everyone in the top 5 is

Jokic elite plus everything else - so is Giannis I don’t think Dallas has a worse roster than Milwaukee and god knows doc sucks - but Giannis gonna have them making noise in playoffs if he healthy - Luka been healthy and the Mavs in 7th - Being a great player ain’t enough - see Jordan before phill and honestly Lebron before Miami

You have been literally worshipping Giannis and Joker since they won... it is more like you have justified confidence and can be more entitled since your guys won, the same as Kobe fans laughed at LeBron's from 04-12...

You know me and you know I respect your opinion- agree or disagree it’s logical-


You know I have been worshipping them for starting as potential rotation players with upside that has worked harder than everyone else on earth and ascended to the throne - not many greats have MVPs- not many greats have 2- how many men have back to back mvps ?

They earned my adoration- earned by being great individually and by winning it all - so great as a team leader.

1a and 1b of this era-

This is opinion backed up by winning alllllllll the hardware -

One other point - it’s not like Denver or Milwakee have some great rosters or rosters better than Dallas- put Giannis or Jokic on Dallas and they contending -

Giannis and Kyrie or Jokic and Kyrie - come on man these guys are on Mount Olympus already


Some of these guys only care about Luka and they trying to make it seem like I’m hating calling out that dude is shoooottinnngggg a ton and only winning a little

[mpoo_sin]

There was a lot of people said Jokic was best player in the league when he won his first mvp at 25/26. Some in the main stream media tried to slander him though. I am looking at you Nick Wright

Jokic was 9th when he was 25 years old as Luka is now. Doctor MJ would say not good enough to even write a single word in MVP thread about him.

To be clear: My issue here isn't that Doncic shouldn't even be mentioned in the thread, but that it's extremely telling that more has probably been written about him here than someone like Shai who is part of the same draft class and has a better chance at winning the award.

.

Gilgeous-Alexander is not even close to the level of player Doncic is.
Doncic is incredible for 5 straight seasons now.
He will be 5 time all nba first team by the end of the season. In his first 6 years!!!
And it is not like he is plateauing in any aspect of his game, he keeps getting better. Why the heck do you think that Gilgeous-Alexander has a better chance to win a MVP than Doncic?

[Handlez]

Uh oh...

Luka's got a little help now.

If he started the year with this team...

He's coming.

[dygaction]

Ok so you must be new here - I’m not emotionally invested either way-

Harden’s best years were better than Luka’s - advance stats - harden actually has a MVP and a few runner ups - led league in points per game and assist while shooting better splits than Luka - but again like I said - I got Luka somewhere between 4 and 5 on my list of current players.

Luka played better in playoffs than harden but the mvp is a reg season award so?

When harden was at his peak and Luka currently both shoot too much to get the other guys involved and play too little defense to win a championship- their die hard fans talk about their teammates but their teammates aren’t getting the ball when they putting up 22-23 shots a game and 10+ 3s some contested and step backs -

I swear I don’t get how Luka mj Kobe and lbj fans exist in a world where opinions are all people have on the subject of who is better and they always find some reason to be mad that someone isn’t worshipping their guy-

Here is my take

Jokic best player on earth and mvp and reining champion

Giannis second best player on earth - learning how to win with Dame and since he has all the hardware of HOF career already and he is still young, rings are all that matter

Embiid is the 3rd best player on earth and probably would have won scoring title and mvp this year cause this dude can stat it up like no one else in the nba but sucks in playoffs

Luka and SGA are a toss up and not depends on the day- sga is a much better defender leader and quality shot taker he gets you 30 a night and NO drama- comes in shape and comes across like the dude you would be ok dating your sister or your daughter - and definitely is a class act as a teammate and a face of your franchise- Tim Duncan and Kawhi found their long lost cousin. No techs just ball- like most of the best Americans … he is Canadian (for now but we recruiting)

Luka - great scorer - horrible coach- big game hunter - wants the smoke with everyone at all times and I’m here for it. Christmas game - check - battles in playoffs with Kawhi- check - beef with an equivalent star check- horrible coach - pretty much horrible attitude - needs to get in shape and doesn’t play a lick of defense but everyone that watches ball knows that when Luka - first gets in elite wing shape, gets a coach with a brain, commits to defense (we see flashes) and learns how to get his guys involved - he is going to come for the top 10 all time… if he doesn’t do that - he is gonna be the nique or tmac of the Kobe Shaq MJ era - being ungodly talented ain’t enough - Luka talent elite but everyone in the top 5 is

Jokic elite plus everything else - so is Giannis I don’t think Dallas has a worse roster than Milwaukee and god knows doc sucks - but Giannis gonna have them making noise in playoffs if he healthy - Luka been healthy and the Mavs in 7th - Being a great player ain’t enough - see Jordan before phill and honestly Lebron before Miami

You have been literally worshipping Giannis and Joker since they won... it is more like you have justified confidence and can be more entitled since your guys won, the same as Kobe fans laughed at LeBron's from 04-12...

You know me and you know I respect your opinion- agree or disagree it’s logical-


You know I have been worshipping them for starting as potential rotation players with upside that has worked harder than everyone else on earth and ascended to the throne - not many greats have MVPs- not many greats have 2- how many men have back to back mvps ?

They earned my adoration- earned by being great individually and by winning it all - so great as a team leader.

1a and 1b of this era-

This is opinion backed up by winning alllllllll the hardware -

One other point - it’s not like Denver or Milwakee have some great rosters or rosters better than Dallas- put Giannis or Jokic on Dallas and they contending -

Giannis and Kyrie or Jokic and Kyrie - come on man these guys are on Mount Olympus already


Some of these guys only care about Luka and they trying to make it seem like I’m hating calling out that dude is shoooottinnngggg a ton and only winning a little

It's all good, just sometimes we should try not use words like "worship" or subtle stabs in a friendly discussion. Any top 10 player in the league can win a championship with the right supporting cast. Kobe won MVP in 08 and Finals MVP in 09/10 but it did not mean 09 LeBron was a lesser player.

When you give Giannis a break, leaning how to play with Dame, Luka is learning with 4 entire new starters with Kyrie being the longest on the team.. Unfortunately last season's starters "Spencer/Bullock/DFS/McGee with Wood/THJ/Maxi/Powell rotation" were not good enough. Since then, Mavs have become younger and more talented, just too much injuries.

[Doctor MJ]

Jokic was 9th when he was 25 years old as Luka is now. Doctor MJ would say not good enough to even write a single word in MVP thread about him.

To be clear: My issue here isn't that Doncic shouldn't even be mentioned in the thread, but that it's extremely telling that more has probably been written about him here than someone like Shai who is part of the same draft class and has a better chance at winning the award.

.

Gilgeous-Alexander is not even close to the level of player Doncic is.
Doncic is incredible for 5 straight seasons now.
He will be 5 time all nba first team by the end of the season. In his first 6 years!!!
And it is not like he is plateauing in any aspect of his game, he keeps getting better. Why the heck do you think that Gilgeous-Alexander has a better chance to win a MVP than Doncic?

I mean, go look at MVP charts all over the web. I'm not the one with the fringe opinion.

[ChipotleWest]

How old were they when they won their first title?

Giannis 26
Jokic 28
Jordan 28
Lebron 27
Curry 26

How old is Luka Doncic?
25

I believe the last player to be the best on their team and win their first ring that was younger than Luka was Tim Duncan, in 1999. Some of you act like his career is nearly over and it's too late. He's on the best team he's ever been on right now don't give me Porzingis when he who missed 2 full seasons out of 3 1/2 season worth of games as a Mav, and left when Luka was 22, and he maxed out a team by getting to the WCF with Brunson when he had Maxi, Powell and Bertans as bigs and Brunson just starting to hit his prime then he left. There was no Luka + Porzingis + Brunson really, Brunson was averaging 12 ppg or less. If they stayed together who knows. So when you look beyond just Porzingis and just Brunson, the teams stunk.

There is not one team Luka's been on that you say "they're contenders" until possibly right now. Why not give Luka until his late 20's who every other player except Duncan needed to win a ring before he's judged about winning? Like everyone else?

[QPR]

Jokic was 9th when he was 25 years old as Luka is now. Doctor MJ would say not good enough to even write a single word in MVP thread about him.

To be clear: My issue here isn't that Doncic shouldn't even be mentioned in the thread, but that it's extremely telling that more has probably been written about him here than someone like Shai who is part of the same draft class and has a better chance at winning the award.

.

Gilgeous-Alexander is not even close to the level of player Doncic is.
Doncic is incredible for 5 straight seasons now.
He will be 5 time all nba first team by the end of the season. In his first 6 years!!!
And it is not like he is plateauing in any aspect of his game, he keeps getting better. Why the heck do you think that Gilgeous-Alexander has a better chance to win a MVP than Doncic?

It's not a "best individual player" award though.

If you only consider the last month then sure, Luka is probably ahead of SGA. But if you consider the whole season, SGA has got the edge in a number of areas:

- Team record (OKC is still 7.5 games ahead of Dallas)
- Defense (SGA is a genuine all-D candidate, in addition to his offensive workload - he leads the NBA in steals and deflections, and is one of the best shot-blocking guards out there)
- SGA has played seven more games than Luka

Advanced stats are pretty comparable but slightly in favour of SGA (he is ahead in PER, TS%, EPM and win shares, Luka is ahead in VORP and BPM).

OKC have definitely been healthier, but they're also younger and for all their talent, SGA is still indisputably the leader of that team. They are also top five in both offensive and defensive team rating (or close to it), which has only been done a handful of times in the past 20 years.

There is often a recency bias to these sorts of awards though, so it wouldn't surprise me if Luka finishes 2nd.

[RB34]

If the Mavs snatch the 4 seed..