NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 4: MVP Thread's Revenge)

[Exp0sed]

Players should be held accountable for the rosters they had to work with, Curry missed the PO in 21 and finished 3rd in MVP voting, because he exceeded expectations given what he had to work with, Jokic and Westbrook won it from 6th seed because what they did was better than others getting 1st seed with better rosters.

Do u think Luka has been better than Jokic if we disregard team wins entirely?

The only argument Luka has over Jokic is his raw ppg and even that obviously stems directly from taking 7 more shots per game

You can't have ur cake and eat it too..
While Luka suffered the downside of injuries and roster\lineup turmoil, as it pertains to his MVP case, he has also recieved the benefits which are - having higher usage and taking way more shots

You can't give him a pass for Mavs injuries while giving him a credit for the inflated raw stats - it's either\or

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Are you sure about that? Overall his best month was February, he was player of the month too. November was his far the worst month. He's scoring just 0.7 points less after All star break, while being much better in assists and rebounds.

Well u know how it is, month to month sample sizes are small and uneven aa far as home\away, S.O.S etc


His Novembers are always the worst as he usually starts the season out of shape and playing in a lower gear

I don't read much into it. even in this small sample he is taking 1less fga post Asb and is getting to the line significantly less

I think it stands to reason that over a full season his usage and particularly his FGA, drives and touches would be reduced playing a full year alongside Kyrie,PJ, Gafford and DJJ compared to the lineups this season




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[Bob8]

Do u think Luka has been better than Jokic if we disregard team wins entirely?

The only argument Luka has over Jokic is his raw ppg and even that obviously stems directly from taking 7 more shots per game

You can't have ur cake and eat it too..
While Luka suffered the downside of injuries and roster\lineup turmoil, as it pertains to his MVP case, he has also recieved the benefits which are - having higher usage and taking way more shots

You can't give him a pass for Mavs injuries while giving him a credit for the inflated raw stats - it's either\or

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Are you sure about that? Overall his best month was February, he was player of the month too. November was his far the worst month. He's scoring just 0.7 points less after All star break, while being much better in assists and rebounds.

Well u know how it is, month to month sample sizes are small and uneven aa far as home\away, S.O.S etc


His Novembers are always the worst as he usually starts the season out of shape and playing in a lower gear

I don't read much into it. even in this small sample he is taking 1less fga post Asb and is getting to the line significantly less

I think it stands to reason that over a full season his usage and particularly his FGA, drives and touches would be reduced playing a full year alongside Kyrie,PJ, Gafford and DJJ compared to the lineups this season




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You said that his raw stats were inflated while playing with injured roster. And I'm saying that's not the truth. Assists and rebounds are considerably up, 0.7 points less is more correlated with different officiating, FTs are down in the whole Nba, than anything else.

Mavs offense didn't change much, except of more dunks, because you now have 48 minutes of rim running. It's basically Luka and Kyrie show, others being role players.
The biggest difference is in D. Mavs having rim protection for 48 minutes is a game changer. Mavs have second best D in last 10 games.

[Exp0sed]

Are you sure about that? Overall his best month was February, he was player of the month too. November was his far the worst month. He's scoring just 0.7 points less after All star break, while being much better in assists and rebounds.

Well u know how it is, month to month sample sizes are small and uneven aa far as home\away, S.O.S etc


His Novembers are always the worst as he usually starts the season out of shape and playing in a lower gear

I don't read much into it. even in this small sample he is taking 1less fga post Asb and is getting to the line significantly less

I think it stands to reason that over a full season his usage and particularly his FGA, drives and touches would be reduced playing a full year alongside Kyrie,PJ, Gafford and DJJ compared to the lineups this season




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You said that his raw stats were inflated while playing with injured roster. And I'm saying that's not the truth. Assists and rebounds are considerably up, 0.7 points less is more correlated with different officiating, FTs are down in the whole Nba, than anything else.

Mavs offense didn't change much, except of more dunks, because you now have 48 minutes of rim running. It's basically Luka and Kyrie show, others being role players.
The biggest difference is in D. Mavs having rim protection for 48 minutes is a game changer. Mavs have second best D in last 10 games.

Fair enough but be that as it may, 8 more ppg on 7 more shots is basically his only argument over Jokic and that's not much of an argument, especially when he's played substantially less games





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[Bob8]

Well u know how it is, month to month sample sizes are small and uneven aa far as home\away, S.O.S etc


His Novembers are always the worst as he usually starts the season out of shape and playing in a lower gear

I don't read much into it. even in this small sample he is taking 1less fga post Asb and is getting to the line significantly less

I think it stands to reason that over a full season his usage and particularly his FGA, drives and touches would be reduced playing a full year alongside Kyrie,PJ, Gafford and DJJ compared to the lineups this season




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You said that his raw stats were inflated while playing with injured roster. And I'm saying that's not the truth. Assists and rebounds are considerably up, 0.7 points less is more correlated with different officiating, FTs are down in the whole Nba, than anything else.

Mavs offense didn't change much, except of more dunks, because you now have 48 minutes of rim running. It's basically Luka and Kyrie show, others being role players.
The biggest difference is in D. Mavs having rim protection for 48 minutes is a game changer. Mavs have second best D in last 10 games.

Fair enough but be that as it may, 8 more ppg on 7 more shots is basically his only argument over Jokic and that's not much of an argument, especially when he's played substantially less games





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And I have said numerous times that Jokic should get the award.

I still believe things would have been much different, if Mavs had played with current roster the whole season. If nothing else his impact would have been much bigger, no matter how illogical that sounds.

[Exp0sed]

And I have said numerous times that Jokic should get the award.

I still believe things would have been much different, if Mavs had played with current roster the whole season. If nothing else his impact would have been much bigger, no matter how illogical that sounds.

fair enough, wasn't sure where you stood on that. I agree and I concur about Mavs roster. if he can stay healthy I think he'll have a great chance to win it next season and as for this one well..the league is scared rn to face these two guys in the playoffs, every team in the West would prefer to avoid the Mavs in the first, I have no doubt about that

edIt: i'll add that it's especially true for the higher seeds, if ur #8 ur gonna meet a strong team either way but if ur say 2 or 3, it makes a world of difference imo, getting a team like the Mavs as opposed to say GSW,LAL,PHX or SAC and it might even make a team like the Clippers to intentionally drop a spot or two, if it'll seem like they're heading into a Mavs-Clippers first rd

[B-easy]

SGA is closer to Jokic than people think.

[Doctor MJ]

the 2022 comparison is a bad comp. Jokic was far and away the best and most valuable player in that season. his main competitors played considerably less games than him and despite their teams winning more games - he even had more "individual" wins than Giannis, Embiid etc

Luka has played in 62 games Jokic 69 and SGA 70. has Luka been 10-12% more productive than Jokic or SGA per game?
I mean even if we disregard team wins entirely, we can't every disregard actual games played - you can't be valuable to your team from the bench, period.

No one is saying Luka should be an MVP, and no one is saying Jokic shouldn't have been an MVP in 22, in fact I think what Jokic did it 22 is very underrated and one of the best individual players seasons in recent history, he took a very bad team to the PO, something Steph failed to do in 21 and Luka failed to do in 23.
We're saying Luka is having an MVP calibre season, and we're saying that if Luka didn't have Jokic for competition this year, he should be strong MVP candidate, we're also saying, the record argument is asinine, injuries easily account for the 8 games difference in team record between Mavs and DEN/OKC.

Hmm, I think folks should ask themselves:

This is an MVP thread. If all agree Luka should not win the MVP then why are there so many passionate Luka supporters here throwing bombs at anyone who dares to argue against Luka’s candidacy?

This isn’t a thread with Luka’s name in the title.
This isn’t a thread about Luka’s team.

It’s an award thread about an award all apparently agree Luka should not win, yet the conversation keeps being about Luka because his supporters keep clicking on this thread and stridently arguing on his behalf while strawmanning anyone who responds to them.

In a nutshell: This is not rational behavior. It’s extreme fanatical behavior. Such behavior tends to happen in these domains so it’s not it’s that awful of a thing…but if you’ve been in this thread spending your time repeatedly focused on pro-Luka arguments, you’re not being an objective analyst, you’re being a fan, and you shouldn’t delude yourself on this and think everyone else has the problem with bias.

The prominence of Luka in this thread speaks to the bias of Luka’s exceptionally potent fandom.


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[Mavrelous]

the 2022 comparison is a bad comp. Jokic was far and away the best and most valuable player in that season. his main competitors played considerably less games than him and despite their teams winning more games - he even had more "individual" wins than Giannis, Embiid etc

Luka has played in 62 games Jokic 69 and SGA 70. has Luka been 10-12% more productive than Jokic or SGA per game?
I mean even if we disregard team wins entirely, we can't every disregard actual games played - you can't be valuable to your team from the bench, period.

No one is saying Luka should be an MVP, and no one is saying Jokic shouldn't have been an MVP in 22, in fact I think what Jokic did it 22 is very underrated and one of the best individual players seasons in recent history, he took a very bad team to the PO, something Steph failed to do in 21 and Luka failed to do in 23.
We're saying Luka is having an MVP calibre season, and we're saying that if Luka didn't have Jokic for competition this year, he should be strong MVP candidate, we're also saying, the record argument is asinine, injuries easily account for the 8 games difference in team record between Mavs and DEN/OKC.

Hmm, I think folks should ask themselves:

This is an MVP thread. If all agree Luka should not win the MVP then why are there so many passionate Luka supporters here throwing bombs at anyone who dares to argue against Luka’s candidacy?

This isn’t a thread with Luka’s name in the title.
This isn’t a thread about Luka’s team.

It’s an award thread about an award all apparently agree Luka should not win, yet the conversation keeps being about Luka because his supporters keep clicking on this thread and stridently arguing on his behalf while strawmanning anyone who responds to them.

In a nutshell: This is not rational behavior. It’s extreme fanatical behavior. Such behavior tends to happen in these domains so it’s not it’s that awful of a thing…but if you’ve been in this thread spending your time repeatedly focused on pro-Luka arguments, you’re not being an objective analyst, you’re being a fan, and you shouldn’t delude yourself on this and think everyone else has the problem with bias.

The prominence of Luka in this thread speaks to the bias of Luka’s exceptionally potent fandom.


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It's a discussion thread about the MVP candidates and he's certainly one of them, the race was reduced to 2 only few weeks ago and is having a clear favourite just this week, Embiid was discussed, Tatum was discussed and Giannis was discussed.

[Wolfgang630]

Joker wouldn’t have won mvp when he was the 6th seed if the top 2 seeds in the west had a truly standout mvp candidate. If I recall that was the year the Suns were far and away number 1, but people were split on if CP3 or Booker was more worthy. If you’re having those conversations then neither is top mvp candidate worthy.

[Exp0sed]

SGA is closer to Jokic than people think.

he stopped being close to Jokic when he stat padded his points in a shameful way
I don't know what this metric is but metrics don't account for things like stat padders vs. anti stat padders

[Bob8]

the 2022 comparison is a bad comp. Jokic was far and away the best and most valuable player in that season. his main competitors played considerably less games than him and despite their teams winning more games - he even had more "individual" wins than Giannis, Embiid etc

Luka has played in 62 games Jokic 69 and SGA 70. has Luka been 10-12% more productive than Jokic or SGA per game?
I mean even if we disregard team wins entirely, we can't every disregard actual games played - you can't be valuable to your team from the bench, period.

No one is saying Luka should be an MVP, and no one is saying Jokic shouldn't have been an MVP in 22, in fact I think what Jokic did it 22 is very underrated and one of the best individual players seasons in recent history, he took a very bad team to the PO, something Steph failed to do in 21 and Luka failed to do in 23.
We're saying Luka is having an MVP calibre season, and we're saying that if Luka didn't have Jokic for competition this year, he should be strong MVP candidate, we're also saying, the record argument is asinine, injuries easily account for the 8 games difference in team record between Mavs and DEN/OKC.

Hmm, I think folks should ask themselves:

This is an MVP thread. If all agree Luka should not win the MVP then why are there so many passionate Luka supporters here throwing bombs at anyone who dares to argue against Luka’s candidacy?

This isn’t a thread with Luka’s name in the title.
This isn’t a thread about Luka’s team.

It’s an award thread about an award all apparently agree Luka should not win, yet the conversation keeps being about Luka because his supporters keep clicking on this thread and stridently arguing on his behalf while strawmanning anyone who responds to them.

In a nutshell: This is not rational behavior. It’s extreme fanatical behavior. Such behavior tends to happen in these domains so it’s not it’s that awful of a thing…but if you’ve been in this thread spending your time repeatedly focused on pro-Luka arguments, you’re not being an objective analyst, you’re being a fan, and you shouldn’t delude yourself on this and think everyone else has the problem with bias.

The prominence of Luka in this thread speaks to the bias of Luka’s exceptionally potent fandom.


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At this moment we have only 1 true MVP candidate. So maybe we should close this thread?

If +/- is measuring impact of player than we have to talk about teams, rosters...

Everyone here is biased. Some just don't want to see it.

I would say that everyone losing time in RealGM shows fanatical behaviour, there isn't even 1 good reason to spend time here. Being a fan is not rational behaviour anyway, so I can understand those. But not being a fan and losing time in RealGm looks like something more serious.

[HMFFL]

Jokic is a -1000 to -3000 favorite to win unless the media says otherwise.

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[Doctor MJ]

No one is saying Luka should be an MVP, and no one is saying Jokic shouldn't have been an MVP in 22, in fact I think what Jokic did it 22 is very underrated and one of the best individual players seasons in recent history, he took a very bad team to the PO, something Steph failed to do in 21 and Luka failed to do in 23.
We're saying Luka is having an MVP calibre season, and we're saying that if Luka didn't have Jokic for competition this year, he should be strong MVP candidate, we're also saying, the record argument is asinine, injuries easily account for the 8 games difference in team record between Mavs and DEN/OKC.

Hmm, I think folks should ask themselves:

This is an MVP thread. If all agree Luka should not win the MVP then why are there so many passionate Luka supporters here throwing bombs at anyone who dares to argue against Luka’s candidacy?

This isn’t a thread with Luka’s name in the title.
This isn’t a thread about Luka’s team.

It’s an award thread about an award all apparently agree Luka should not win, yet the conversation keeps being about Luka because his supporters keep clicking on this thread and stridently arguing on his behalf while strawmanning anyone who responds to them.

In a nutshell: This is not rational behavior. It’s extreme fanatical behavior. Such behavior tends to happen in these domains so it’s not it’s that awful of a thing…but if you’ve been in this thread spending your time repeatedly focused on pro-Luka arguments, you’re not being an objective analyst, you’re being a fan, and you shouldn’t delude yourself on this and think everyone else has the problem with bias.

The prominence of Luka in this thread speaks to the bias of Luka’s exceptionally potent fandom.


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At this moment we have only 1 true MVP candidate. So maybe we should close this thread?

Everyone here is biased. Some just don't want to see it.

I would say that anyone losing time in RealGM shows fanatical behaviour, there isn't even 1 good reason to spend time here. Being a fan is not rational behaviour anyway, so I can understand those. But not being a fan and losing time in RealGm looks like something more serious.

Let me give some perspective here.

Here are the posters in this thread with 50+ posts, from most to least:

Bob8 - more than double all but Exp0sed.
Exp0sed
AleksandarN
Doctor MJ
dygaction
Wolfgang630
Special_Puppy
Mavrelous

Now I'm not saying everyone in that group is on here with a primary focus to talk about Luka - I mean, I'm on the list - but it's pretty undeniable that this MVP thread has been more about Luka than anyone else, and that's weird given that I'm being told that absolutely no one thinks Luka should win the MVP.

Should we shut down the thread given that it seems like Jokic has the award wrapped up? No, but I might suggest that we should expect most of the conversation leading up to this point would have been about Jokic, and since that wasn't the case, that tells us something.

Re: everyone here is biased. No one has perfect objectivity Bob, but there is one fanbase represented here that is acting most out of whack with the stature of the candidate they want to talk about, and there is one person from that fanbase who has been the most prolific of the bunch, and that fellow is responding to a suggestion that he might be have bias causing confusion by implying that he is no different from anyone else.

And so on that I can say: No Bob, you're a unique snowflake even among your fellow fans.

[Bob8]

Hmm, I think folks should ask themselves:

This is an MVP thread. If all agree Luka should not win the MVP then why are there so many passionate Luka supporters here throwing bombs at anyone who dares to argue against Luka’s candidacy?

This isn’t a thread with Luka’s name in the title.
This isn’t a thread about Luka’s team.

It’s an award thread about an award all apparently agree Luka should not win, yet the conversation keeps being about Luka because his supporters keep clicking on this thread and stridently arguing on his behalf while strawmanning anyone who responds to them.

In a nutshell: This is not rational behavior. It’s extreme fanatical behavior. Such behavior tends to happen in these domains so it’s not it’s that awful of a thing…but if you’ve been in this thread spending your time repeatedly focused on pro-Luka arguments, you’re not being an objective analyst, you’re being a fan, and you shouldn’t delude yourself on this and think everyone else has the problem with bias.

The prominence of Luka in this thread speaks to the bias of Luka’s exceptionally potent fandom.


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At this moment we have only 1 true MVP candidate. So maybe we should close this thread?

Everyone here is biased. Some just don't want to see it.

I would say that anyone losing time in RealGM shows fanatical behaviour, there isn't even 1 good reason to spend time here. Being a fan is not rational behaviour anyway, so I can understand those. But not being a fan and losing time in RealGm looks like something more serious.

Let me give some perspective here.

Here are the posters in this thread with 50+ posts, from most to least:

Bob8 - more than double all but Exp0sed.
Exp0sed
AleksandarN
Doctor MJ
dygaction
Wolfgang630
Special_Puppy
Mavrelous

Now I'm not saying everyone in that group is on here with a primary focus to talk about Luka - I mean, I'm on the list - but it's pretty undeniable that this MVP thread has been more about Luka than anyone else, and that's weird given that I'm being told that absolutely no one thinks Luka should win the MVP.

Should we shut down the thread given that it seems like Jokic has the award wrapped up? No, but I might suggest that we should expect most of the conversation leading up to this point would have been about Jokic, and since that wasn't the case, that tells us something.

Re: everyone here is biased. No one has perfect objectivity Bob, but there is one fanbase represented here that is acting most out of whack with the stature of the candidate they want to talk about, and there is one person from that fanbase who has been the most prolific of the bunch, and that fellow is responding to a suggestion that he might be have bias causing confusion by implying that he is no different from anyone else.

And so on that I can say: No Bob, you're a unique snowflake even among your fellow fans.

What about you Doctor? Why are you writing thesis about Luka not being worthy MVP candidate?

[mpoo_sin]

No one is saying Luka should be an MVP, and no one is saying Jokic shouldn't have been an MVP in 22, in fact I think what Jokic did it 22 is very underrated and one of the best individual players seasons in recent history, he took a very bad team to the PO, something Steph failed to do in 21 and Luka failed to do in 23.
We're saying Luka is having an MVP calibre season, and we're saying that if Luka didn't have Jokic for competition this year, he should be strong MVP candidate, we're also saying, the record argument is asinine, injuries easily account for the 8 games difference in team record between Mavs and DEN/OKC.

Hmm, I think folks should ask themselves:

This is an MVP thread. If all agree Luka should not win the MVP then why are there so many passionate Luka supporters here throwing bombs at anyone who dares to argue against Luka’s candidacy?

This isn’t a thread with Luka’s name in the title.
This isn’t a thread about Luka’s team.

It’s an award thread about an award all apparently agree Luka should not win, yet the conversation keeps being about Luka because his supporters keep clicking on this thread and stridently arguing on his behalf while strawmanning anyone who responds to them.

In a nutshell: This is not rational behavior. It’s extreme fanatical behavior. Such behavior tends to happen in these domains so it’s not it’s that awful of a thing…but if you’ve been in this thread spending your time repeatedly focused on pro-Luka arguments, you’re not being an objective analyst, you’re being a fan, and you shouldn’t delude yourself on this and think everyone else has the problem with bias.

The prominence of Luka in this thread speaks to the bias of Luka’s exceptionally potent fandom.


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At this moment we have only 1 true MVP candidate. So maybe we should close this thread?

If +/- is measuring impact of player than we have to talk about teams, rosters...

Everyone here is biased. Some just don't want to see it.

I would say that everyone losing time in RealGM shows fanatical behaviour, there isn't even 1 good reason to spend time here. Being a fan is not rational behaviour anyway, so I can understand those. But not being a fan and losing time in RealGm looks like something more serious.

Before the Mavs went on their current winning streak i posted that Doncic still has a marginal chance if they lose 2 games max. And i also stated that this is extremely unlikely. It still is unlikely given their insane end to the season. Not their opponents are ubertough but their schedule is insanely dense because of the extra Warriors game.

[Bob8]

Hmm, I think folks should ask themselves:

This is an MVP thread. If all agree Luka should not win the MVP then why are there so many passionate Luka supporters here throwing bombs at anyone who dares to argue against Luka’s candidacy?

This isn’t a thread with Luka’s name in the title.
This isn’t a thread about Luka’s team.

It’s an award thread about an award all apparently agree Luka should not win, yet the conversation keeps being about Luka because his supporters keep clicking on this thread and stridently arguing on his behalf while strawmanning anyone who responds to them.

In a nutshell: This is not rational behavior. It’s extreme fanatical behavior. Such behavior tends to happen in these domains so it’s not it’s that awful of a thing…but if you’ve been in this thread spending your time repeatedly focused on pro-Luka arguments, you’re not being an objective analyst, you’re being a fan, and you shouldn’t delude yourself on this and think everyone else has the problem with bias.

The prominence of Luka in this thread speaks to the bias of Luka’s exceptionally potent fandom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

At this moment we have only 1 true MVP candidate. So maybe we should close this thread?

If +/- is measuring impact of player than we have to talk about teams, rosters...

Everyone here is biased. Some just don't want to see it.

I would say that everyone losing time in RealGM shows fanatical behaviour, there isn't even 1 good reason to spend time here. Being a fan is not rational behaviour anyway, so I can understand those. But not being a fan and losing time in RealGm looks like something more serious.

Before the Mavs went on their current winning streak i posted that Doncic still has a marginal chance if they lose 2 games max. And i also stated that this is extremely unlikely. It still is unlikely given their insane end to the season. Not their opponents are ubertough but their schedule is insanely dense because of the extra Warriors game.

I'm afraid we can't discuss about Luka anymore. +/- police has taken control of the thread. +/- + 10 is a minimum requirement for the debating.

[dygaction]

Hmm, I think folks should ask themselves:

This is an MVP thread. If all agree Luka should not win the MVP then why are there so many passionate Luka supporters here throwing bombs at anyone who dares to argue against Luka’s candidacy?

This isn’t a thread with Luka’s name in the title.
This isn’t a thread about Luka’s team.

It’s an award thread about an award all apparently agree Luka should not win, yet the conversation keeps being about Luka because his supporters keep clicking on this thread and stridently arguing on his behalf while strawmanning anyone who responds to them.

In a nutshell: This is not rational behavior. It’s extreme fanatical behavior. Such behavior tends to happen in these domains so it’s not it’s that awful of a thing…but if you’ve been in this thread spending your time repeatedly focused on pro-Luka arguments, you’re not being an objective analyst, you’re being a fan, and you shouldn’t delude yourself on this and think everyone else has the problem with bias.

The prominence of Luka in this thread speaks to the bias of Luka’s exceptionally potent fandom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

At this moment we have only 1 true MVP candidate. So maybe we should close this thread?

Everyone here is biased. Some just don't want to see it.

I would say that anyone losing time in RealGM shows fanatical behaviour, there isn't even 1 good reason to spend time here. Being a fan is not rational behaviour anyway, so I can understand those. But not being a fan and losing time in RealGm looks like something more serious.

Let me give some perspective here.

Here are the posters in this thread with 50+ posts, from most to least:

Bob8 - more than double all but Exp0sed.
Exp0sed
AleksandarN
Doctor MJ
dygaction
Wolfgang630
Special_Puppy
Mavrelous

Now I'm not saying everyone in that group is on here with a primary focus to talk about Luka - I mean, I'm on the list - but it's pretty undeniable that this MVP thread has been more about Luka than anyone else, and that's weird given that I'm being told that absolutely no one thinks Luka should win the MVP.

Should we shut down the thread given that it seems like Jokic has the award wrapped up? No, but I might suggest that we should expect most of the conversation leading up to this point would have been about Jokic, and since that wasn't the case, that tells us something.

Re: everyone here is biased. No one has perfect objectivity Bob, but there is one fanbase represented here that is acting most out of whack with the stature of the candidate they want to talk about, and there is one person from that fanbase who has been the most prolific of the bunch, and that fellow is responding to a suggestion that he might be have bias causing confusion by implying that he is no different from anyone else.

And so on that I can say: No Bob, you're a unique snowflake even among your fellow fans.

First time for so many years on any forums I see a senior mod has big problems on people engaging in discussions, not on the player he/she likes, to the extend of name calling and counting #s... Nobody is against you pro any players, if you actually have one that you support instead of just hate on. That >100 page rookie discussion was initially dominates by Chet being the ROY but now changed. If you are so convinced, maybe take the thread down if you have the power or check less to have better peace of mind?

[Andri]

Time goes by, and still Jokic and Doncic are the best players in the League

[rapstarter]

the 2022 comparison is a bad comp. Jokic was far and away the best and most valuable player in that season. his main competitors played considerably less games than him and despite their teams winning more games - he even had more "individual" wins than Giannis, Embiid etc

Luka has played in 62 games Jokic 69 and SGA 70. has Luka been 10-12% more productive than Jokic or SGA per game?
I mean even if we disregard team wins entirely, we can't every disregard actual games played - you can't be valuable to your team from the bench, period.

No one is saying Luka should be an MVP, and no one is saying Jokic shouldn't have been an MVP in 22, in fact I think what Jokic did it 22 is very underrated and one of the best individual players seasons in recent history, he took a very bad team to the PO, something Steph failed to do in 21 and Luka failed to do in 23.
We're saying Luka is having an MVP calibre season, and we're saying that if Luka didn't have Jokic for competition this year, he should be strong MVP candidate, we're also saying, the record argument is asinine, injuries easily account for the 8 games difference in team record between Mavs and DEN/OKC.

Hmm, I think folks should ask themselves:

This is an MVP thread. If all agree Luka should not win the MVP then why are there so many passionate Luka supporters here throwing bombs at anyone who dares to argue against Luka’s candidacy?

This isn’t a thread with Luka’s name in the title.
This isn’t a thread about Luka’s team.

It’s an award thread about an award all apparently agree Luka should not win, yet the conversation keeps being about Luka because his supporters keep clicking on this thread and stridently arguing on his behalf while strawmanning anyone who responds to them.

In a nutshell: This is not rational behavior. It’s extreme fanatical behavior. Such behavior tends to happen in these domains so it’s not it’s that awful of a thing…but if you’ve been in this thread spending your time repeatedly focused on pro-Luka arguments, you’re not being an objective analyst, you’re being a fan, and you shouldn’t delude yourself on this and think everyone else has the problem with bias.

The prominence of Luka in this thread speaks to the bias of Luka’s exceptionally potent fandom.


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What an odd way of moderating the board. Might as well close 90% of the threads that start here as soon as they open if there's a consensus. We just went through a Jayson Tatum phase despite him having even less of a chance than Luka. At least the Mavs record in recent weeks has improved enough that the seeding argument has begun to change for Luka, and that's more interesting to talk about than everyone just admitting to themselves that Jokic will win.

Also, yes, this is an MVP discussion thread, but that doesn't mean people should only talk about who will win, does it? If the Mavs/Bucks fans come in and argue Luka/Giannis is the best player in the league and should win the award, who's stopping them, and why should they be stopped? It's surely worth a discussion regardless of their exceptional fandom. Hell, we even had guys like Haliburton and Brunson occupying a place in the poll. Did anyone actually think they had any more chance of winning the award at any point than Luka right now?

[Drakeem]

the 2022 comparison is a bad comp. Jokic was far and away the best and most valuable player in that season. his main competitors played considerably less games than him and despite their teams winning more games - he even had more "individual" wins than Giannis, Embiid etc

Luka has played in 62 games Jokic 69 and SGA 70. has Luka been 10-12% more productive than Jokic or SGA per game?
I mean even if we disregard team wins entirely, we can't every disregard actual games played - you can't be valuable to your team from the bench, period.

No one is saying Luka should be an MVP, and no one is saying Jokic shouldn't have been an MVP in 22, in fact I think what Jokic did it 22 is very underrated and one of the best individual players seasons in recent history, he took a very bad team to the PO, something Steph failed to do in 21 and Luka failed to do in 23.
We're saying Luka is having an MVP calibre season, and we're saying that if Luka didn't have Jokic for competition this year, he should be strong MVP candidate, we're also saying, the record argument is asinine, injuries easily account for the 8 games difference in team record between Mavs and DEN/OKC.

Hmm, I think folks should ask themselves:

This is an MVP thread. If all agree Luka should not win the MVP then why are there so many passionate Luka supporters here throwing bombs at anyone who dares to argue against Luka’s candidacy?

This isn’t a thread with Luka’s name in the title.
This isn’t a thread about Luka’s team.

It’s an award thread about an award all apparently agree Luka should not win, yet the conversation keeps being about Luka because his supporters keep clicking on this thread and stridently arguing on his behalf while strawmanning anyone who responds to them.

In a nutshell: This is not rational behavior. It’s extreme fanatical behavior. Such behavior tends to happen in these domains so it’s not it’s that awful of a thing…but if you’ve been in this thread spending your time repeatedly focused on pro-Luka arguments, you’re not being an objective analyst, you’re being a fan, and you shouldn’t delude yourself on this and think everyone else has the problem with bias.

The prominence of Luka in this thread speaks to the bias of Luka’s exceptionally potent fandom.


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Bit of an odd take. This thread is about MVP discussion, meaning that anyone who's a potential candidate is fair game. Luka is in one of those odd situations where he might have been the best regular season player this year but due to team construction before the deadline, his record is dragging him down. Is a basketball forum not a good place to talk about hypotheticals and perhaps prop a guy up if he's deserving?

If people are actively wanting to speak on Luka, shouldn't they be able to? How are we going to decide what people should be talking about? If they wanted to discuss Giannis/Jokic/Tatum/etc they can. It's clear they don't.