GSP wrote: Giannis had one of the biggest chokes ever against 8 seed Heat last year ppl think thats held back his Mvp case but theres far more to look at to realize he isnt a legit case like Jokic, Sga or Luka
I don't think Giannis was blackballed but come on.... Let's revisit that series...... Games 1-3 didn't play because he got undercut by a dirty Kevin Love play the NBA seems to love. He was obviously injured because he wouldn't have sat that long otherwise. Games 4-5: Giannis played injured and averaged 32/15/8 on 53% FG. Obviously below average but not some horrible performance. He sucked at the line.
Non Giannis bucks Game 6 - 40% Game 7 - 38%
It was basically the same as the Celtics series the game before. Giannis gets the wall treatment and so he starts to defer. Teammates miss wide-open shots. Then he tries forcing it in the fourth because no one else is doing anything. He gets exhausted and his FTs dip.
He's a flawed player that can't effortlessly pull up and bury 3s. But come on. Dude put 50 in a close out finals game and had the best in game block I have ever seen earlier in the series. And he still has a choker label? There's a difference between flawed and choking.
Bob8 wrote: Texas Chuck had to be big Mavs homer in RealGm for few days because of the bet.
What? I don't recall losing any bets where the payoff was being a homer lol. Refresh me por favor.
You really don't remember? It was Mavs-Suns series. Mavs being 0:2 down, and I looked too optimistic to you. So you promised to be a homer for few days on general board, if Mavs win. And you were.
JonHeist wrote:Giannis is really about to lead a team to the 2-seed with a 31/12/6 on 65%ts statline with elite defense
and probably will finish 4th in MVP
****, a good amount of voters will put tatum ahead of him and a few will leave him out of the top 5 entirely
definition of blackballed
lol, he isn't "blackballed"
elite defense? Bucks are 16th in D 31 on 65% is awesome but you do realize that he does'nt make his teamates better to the extent the guys above him do
teams are letting him get his ("letting" isn't exactly the right word, not like they could stop him from getting his), let's just say teams are comfortable letting him get his and focusing on limiting the other guys
they have a losing record away from home with Giannis + Dame... that's not an MVP, not when a few other guys are doing what they're doing
he's great regardless
This elite defense is a thing that intirgues me the most.
In 2018-19 Bucks were 1st in DEFRTG with 3 all-nba defenders on a team Bleadso, Giannis, Lopez 2019-20 1st in DEFRTG with Bleadso, Giannis, Lopez 2020-21 9th in DEFRTG with Jrue, Giannis, Lopez 2021-22 14th in DEFRTG with Jrue, Giannis 2022-23 4th in DEFRTG with Jrue, Giannis, Lopez 2023-24 14th in DEFRTG with Giannis, Lopez
So with elite guard defender and elite center defender Giannis's team is good to great in defense. Without one of them they are average with Giannis on a team.
Which leads us to question does Giannis really plays great defense for 30+ minutes he is on the court? We all know he can make great DEFENSIVE PLAYS, but it doesn't mean he PLAYS GREAT DEFENSE for 30+ minutes.
IMO same can be said for Embiid, Kawhi, it was a truth for Jordan in his days. Great ofensive players that spend so much energy on offense can't play elite defense for 30+ minutes. They may have ability to play D, defensive IQ, athleticism required to do it, but they simply don't have energy to do it.
GSP wrote: Giannis had one of the biggest chokes ever against 8 seed Heat last year ppl think thats held back his Mvp case but theres far more to look at to realize he isnt a legit case like Jokic, Sga or Luka
I don't think Giannis was blackballed but come on.... Let's revisit that series...... Games 1-3 didn't play because he got undercut by a dirty Kevin Love play the NBA seems to love. He was obviously injured because he wouldn't have sat that long otherwise. Games 4-5: Giannis played injured and averaged 32/15/8 on 53% FG. Obviously below average but not some horrible performance. He sucked at the line.
Non Giannis bucks Game 6 - 40% Game 7 - 38%
It was basically the same as the Celtics series the game before. Giannis gets the wall treatment and so he starts to defer. Teammates miss wide-open shots. Then he tries forcing it in the fourth because no one else is doing anything. He gets exhausted and his FTs dip.
He's a flawed player that can't effortlessly pull up and bury 3s. But come on. Dude put 50 in a close out finals game and had the best in game block I have ever seen earlier in the series. And he still has a choker label? There's a difference between flawed and choking.
Love attempted to draw a charge and even shuffled his feet to try to get in position before Giannis was airborne. That wasnt undercutting.......undercutting is what Giannis did to Kyrie intentionally and unnecessarily to end up injuring him
He lost in 5 games (0-3 when he played they won their only game without him) to a depleted 8 seed while having Hca and being the gigantic favorite. Bucks were the favorite to win the title too. It was undeniably one of the biggest chokes ever
Bob8 wrote: Texas Chuck had to be big Mavs homer in RealGm for few days because of the bet.
What? I don't recall losing any bets where the payoff was being a homer lol. Refresh me por favor.
You really don't remember? It was Mavs-Suns series. Mavs being 0:2 down, and I looked too optimistic to you. So you promised to be a homer for few days on general board, if Mavs win. And you were.
I really don't. But glad I could homer up for you for a bit.
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
GSP wrote: Giannis had one of the biggest chokes ever against 8 seed Heat last year ppl think thats held back his Mvp case but theres far more to look at to realize he isnt a legit case like Jokic, Sga or Luka
I don't think Giannis was blackballed but come on.... Let's revisit that series...... Games 1-3 didn't play because he got undercut by a dirty Kevin Love play the NBA seems to love. He was obviously injured because he wouldn't have sat that long otherwise. Games 4-5: Giannis played injured and averaged 32/15/8 on 53% FG. Obviously below average but not some horrible performance. He sucked at the line.
Non Giannis bucks Game 6 - 40% Game 7 - 38%
It was basically the same as the Celtics series the game before. Giannis gets the wall treatment and so he starts to defer. Teammates miss wide-open shots. Then he tries forcing it in the fourth because no one else is doing anything. He gets exhausted and his FTs dip.
He's a flawed player that can't effortlessly pull up and bury 3s. But come on. Dude put 50 in a close out finals game and had the best in game block I have ever seen earlier in the series. And he still has a choker label? There's a difference between flawed and choking.
Love attempted to draw a charge and even shuffled his feet to try to get in position before Giannis was airborne. That wasnt undercutting.......undercutting is what Giannis did to Kyrie intentionally and unnecessarily to end up injuring him
He lost in 5 games (0-3 when he played they won their only game without him) to a depleted 8 seed while having Hca and being the gigantic favorite. Bucks were the favorite to win the title too. It was undeniably one of the biggest chokes ever
1. You say 0-3 when he plays. The first game he played 10 MINUTES. the 4/5 game he was playing injured
2.
Love attempted to draw a charge and even shuffled his feet to try to get in position before Giannis was airborne. That wasnt undercutting.......undercutting is what Giannis did to Kyrie intentionally and unnecessarily to end up injuring him
From the time Giannis starts to go up in the air, Love shuffles two feet to the right. He bends his knees and his upper body is lower with his arms covering his mid-section. Yes, it is a typical attempt to draw a charge but it is dangerous and don't know why the NBA rewards it. At no point is Love challenging the ball, at no point is he vertical. All he does is flop backwards where Giannis is then thrown off balance mid-air. Its only a matter of time until someone gets seriously injured.
Luka obv 2nd over SGA. His stats are more impressive, specially considering how many games he had to play with a trainwreck roster because of injuries. And because of all the Mavs injuries and the health of the Thunder throughout the season I think the Mavs record is even a little bit more impressive than the Thunder record.
JonHeist wrote:Giannis is really about to lead a team to the 2-seed with a 31/12/6 on 65%ts statline with elite defense
and probably will finish 4th in MVP
****, a good amount of voters will put tatum ahead of him and a few will leave him out of the top 5 entirely
definition of blackballed
lol, he isn't "blackballed"
elite defense? Bucks are 16th in D 31 on 65% is awesome but you do realize that he does'nt make his teamates better to the extent the guys above him do
teams are letting him get his ("letting" isn't exactly the right word, not like they could stop him from getting his), let's just say teams are comfortable letting him get his and focusing on limiting the other guys
they have a losing record away from home with Giannis + Dame... that's not an MVP, not when a few other guys are doing what they're doing
he's great regardless
This elite defense is a thing that intirgues me the most.
In 2018-19 Bucks were 1st in DEFRTG with 3 all-nba defenders on a team Bleadso, Giannis, Lopez 2019-20 1st in DEFRTG with Bleadso, Giannis, Lopez 2020-21 9th in DEFRTG with Jrue, Giannis, Lopez 2021-22 14th in DEFRTG with Jrue, Giannis 2022-23 4th in DEFRTG with Jrue, Giannis, Lopez 2023-24 14th in DEFRTG with Giannis, Lopez
So with elite guard defender and elite center defender Giannis's team is good to great in defense. Without one of them they are average with Giannis on a team.
Which leads us to question does Giannis really plays great defense for 30+ minutes he is on the court? We all know he can make great DEFENSIVE PLAYS, but it doesn't mean he PLAYS GREAT DEFENSE for 30+ minutes.
IMO same can be said for Embiid, Kawhi, it was a truth for Jordan in his days. Great ofensive players that spend so much energy on offense can't play elite defense for 30+ minutes. They may have ability to play D, defensive IQ, athleticism required to do it, but they simply don't have energy to do it.
just curious
would you try to argue that any of jokic/sga/luka/tatum are better defenders than GA?
Luka obv 2nd over SGA. His stats are more impressive, specially considering how many games he had to play with a trainwreck roster because of injuries. And because of all the Mavs injuries and the health of the Thunder throughout the season I think the Mavs record is even a little bit more impressive than the Thunder record.
Luka's chance was really killed by Kidd with the 1W-5L record between Feb 25 and March 5 right after 7 consecutive wins. It is that time he suddenly rekindled small-ball 5-out thoughts and decided to played Maxi more than Lively II and Gafford, who ended up scoring 2pt per game in 22.5min play time with .167/.200 shooting. It was not even cute to justify Maxi >25min over Gafford 6 and 7 mins in two of the losses, maybe something off court led Gafford to Kidd's doghouse.
Since Gafford in the team he has not missed a single game. The Mavs are 12w-2l when he played more than 20 min (one L was without Luka), and 2w-4l when he played less than 20 min. The team is much better now with Maxi reduced role, filling PJ's time as 4 instead of taking Lively/Gafford's as stretch 5. Had Kidd/Mavs changed 1w-5l to 3w-3l, they would be 4 seed now giving Luka a more serious discussion.
elite defense? Bucks are 16th in D 31 on 65% is awesome but you do realize that he does'nt make his teamates better to the extent the guys above him do
teams are letting him get his ("letting" isn't exactly the right word, not like they could stop him from getting his), let's just say teams are comfortable letting him get his and focusing on limiting the other guys
they have a losing record away from home with Giannis + Dame... that's not an MVP, not when a few other guys are doing what they're doing
he's great regardless
This elite defense is a thing that intirgues me the most.
In 2018-19 Bucks were 1st in DEFRTG with 3 all-nba defenders on a team Bleadso, Giannis, Lopez 2019-20 1st in DEFRTG with Bleadso, Giannis, Lopez 2020-21 9th in DEFRTG with Jrue, Giannis, Lopez 2021-22 14th in DEFRTG with Jrue, Giannis 2022-23 4th in DEFRTG with Jrue, Giannis, Lopez 2023-24 14th in DEFRTG with Giannis, Lopez
So with elite guard defender and elite center defender Giannis's team is good to great in defense. Without one of them they are average with Giannis on a team.
Which leads us to question does Giannis really plays great defense for 30+ minutes he is on the court? We all know he can make great DEFENSIVE PLAYS, but it doesn't mean he PLAYS GREAT DEFENSE for 30+ minutes.
IMO same can be said for Embiid, Kawhi, it was a truth for Jordan in his days. Great ofensive players that spend so much energy on offense can't play elite defense for 30+ minutes. They may have ability to play D, defensive IQ, athleticism required to do it, but they simply don't have energy to do it.
just curious
would you try to argue that any of jokic/sga/luka/tatum are better defenders than GA?
Of course not for Jokic and Luka. I don't know enough about SGA's defense to be objective about it. C's fans like to prize Tatum as a good defender. But my point is not about them, It is about 2-way players. If Giannis is such elite defender why he didn't stop Butler from scoring 56 in game 4? He didn't guard him right? If Butler is such elite defender why he wasn't primary defender on Murray in finals last year? Kawhi was elite defender before he was asked to carrie offense. Jordan was prized as super-duper 2 way player because of his steals per game and 1 game of stoping Drexler. The truth was Pipen was poa defender, Harper guarded 2nd best offensive wing so Jordan could rest on D.
My point is no one can play great O and D for 30+ minutes. I can give you at least 20-30 players who play better defense than Giannis. From Denver you have AG and KCP, then there are OG, Lu Dorth, Rudy, Jaden McDaniels, Issac, Suggs, Herbert Jones, Jrue, Derrick White...and if you have 20 players that play better defense than Giannis is he really elite defender (or does he play elite defense)?
Woodsanity wrote:With a better coach I can see Luka winning MVP next season. Kidd is a bottom 5 coach in the L.
What is the chance that Kidd is a mind reading genius, similar to Tyronn Lue, who intentionally let the team find its identity through some tough losses, so that the only highly-paid tenured players - THJ and Maxi - can buy in like what Westbrook did for Clippers?
Woodsanity wrote:With a better coach I can see Luka winning MVP next season. Kidd is a bottom 5 coach in the L.
What is the chance that Kidd is a mind reading genius, similar to Tyronn Lue, who intentionally let the team find its identity through some tough losses, so that the only highly-paid tenured players - THJ and Maxi - can buy in like what Westbrook did for Clippers?
I guess its a nonzero chance but extremely low.
No idea why he still has a job. He needs to be fired when the season ends.
Only the playoffs separate the true great ones and frauds.
Woodsanity wrote:With a better coach I can see Luka winning MVP next season. Kidd is a bottom 5 coach in the L.
What is the chance that Kidd is a mind reading genius, similar to Tyronn Lue, who intentionally let the team find its identity through some tough losses, so that the only highly-paid tenured players - THJ and Maxi - can buy in like what Westbrook did for Clippers?
I guess its a nonzero chance but extremely low.
No idea why he still has a job. He needs to be fired when the season ends.
Now you are kind of abducted on the boat. The expectation of this season is not extremely high, first round exit would do it, wcsf he may get another chance, and a surprising trip to WCF again will secure his job tight. A Finals appearance, winning or not, I will be against the firing
elite defense? Bucks are 16th in D 31 on 65% is awesome but you do realize that he does'nt make his teamates better to the extent the guys above him do
teams are letting him get his ("letting" isn't exactly the right word, not like they could stop him from getting his), let's just say teams are comfortable letting him get his and focusing on limiting the other guys
they have a losing record away from home with Giannis + Dame... that's not an MVP, not when a few other guys are doing what they're doing
he's great regardless
This elite defense is a thing that intirgues me the most.
In 2018-19 Bucks were 1st in DEFRTG with 3 all-nba defenders on a team Bleadso, Giannis, Lopez 2019-20 1st in DEFRTG with Bleadso, Giannis, Lopez 2020-21 9th in DEFRTG with Jrue, Giannis, Lopez 2021-22 14th in DEFRTG with Jrue, Giannis 2022-23 4th in DEFRTG with Jrue, Giannis, Lopez 2023-24 14th in DEFRTG with Giannis, Lopez
So with elite guard defender and elite center defender Giannis's team is good to great in defense. Without one of them they are average with Giannis on a team.
Which leads us to question does Giannis really plays great defense for 30+ minutes he is on the court? We all know he can make great DEFENSIVE PLAYS, but it doesn't mean he PLAYS GREAT DEFENSE for 30+ minutes.
IMO same can be said for Embiid, Kawhi, it was a truth for Jordan in his days. Great ofensive players that spend so much energy on offense can't play elite defense for 30+ minutes. They may have ability to play D, defensive IQ, athleticism required to do it, but they simply don't have energy to do it.
just curious
would you try to argue that any of jokic/sga/luka/tatum are better defenders than GA?
I know u didn't ask me, but chiming in anyway Lopez was heavily discussed as being DPOY last season. he had stuff like contesting the most shots (overall, as in most in the league not just most on the Bucks) and he was holding opponents to a much worse % than their average etc
Middelton is an above average defender, so is Middelton is some of the Lopez effect "inflated" or rather: augmented, by having Giannis around? ofc, that's how defense works but do remember that works both ways - Giannis also benefits from this synergy with another elite defender
replacing guys like Carter and Jrue with Dame is obviously very detrimental to a team's defense but if that drop off is big enough to get from top 5 to only 15..something doesn't add up, right?
perhaps it's the coaching issue but be that as it may, it's hard to give Giannis alone, credit for his elite defense when alongside his teammate who just finished 2nd in DPOY last season - have only the 16th best defense
as for your question, not Luka or Jokic but SGA has a very substantial case for being a better, more impactful defender than Giannis this season and he too, is obviously not alone as Chet is the anchor and rim protector, Dort is a very good defender, J-Dub etc but still, his defensive impact shows out strong in metrics, his team is much better defensively and he is leading the league is stuff like Steals, loose balls, deflections etc. leading or is in the top 5. Giannis isn't bringing it every night on D this season, had he been doing that I doubt they would have a middling defense
very hard to compare a Guard to a C in terms of defense but there's def a case to be made, it'd be hard to argue otherwise
