NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 4: MVP Thread's Revenge)

[mpoo_sin]

To be clear: My issue here isn't that Doncic shouldn't even be mentioned in the thread, but that it's extremely telling that more has probably been written about him here than someone like Shai who is part of the same draft class and has a better chance at winning the award.

.

Gilgeous-Alexander is not even close to the level of player Doncic is.
Doncic is incredible for 5 straight seasons now.
He will be 5 time all nba first team by the end of the season. In his first 6 years!!!
And it is not like he is plateauing in any aspect of his game, he keeps getting better. Why the heck do you think that Gilgeous-Alexander has a better chance to win a MVP than Doncic?

I mean, go look at MVP charts all over the web. I'm not the one with the fringe opinion.

His case went out the window when he dropped 12 3 and 2 in 30 mins.

Maybe i misread what you said. Thought you were saying that in general Gilgeous-Alexander has a better chance than Doncic at winning the MVP not just this season.

[CobraCommander]

Jokic was 9th when he was 25 years old as Luka is now. Doctor MJ would say not good enough to even write a single word in MVP thread about him.

To be clear: My issue here isn't that Doncic shouldn't even be mentioned in the thread, but that it's extremely telling that more has probably been written about him here than someone like Shai who is part of the same draft class and has a better chance at winning the award.

.

Gilgeous-Alexander is not even close to the level of player Doncic is.
Doncic is incredible for 5 straight seasons now.
He will be 5 time all nba first team by the end of the season. In his first 6 years!!!
And it is not like he is plateauing in any aspect of his game, he keeps getting better. Why the heck do you think that Gilgeous-Alexander has a better chance to win a MVP than Doncic?

BS biased answer from you Mpoo- SGA got more votes for
MVP JUST LAST YEAR- so in other words to the voters SGA was better than Luka LAST year too-

Stop watching just one guy lol

[Wolfgang630]

If the Mavs snatch the 4 seed..

Then they’ll play the 5th seed in the first round…

[mpoo_sin]

To be clear: My issue here isn't that Doncic shouldn't even be mentioned in the thread, but that it's extremely telling that more has probably been written about him here than someone like Shai who is part of the same draft class and has a better chance at winning the award.

.

Gilgeous-Alexander is not even close to the level of player Doncic is.
Doncic is incredible for 5 straight seasons now.
He will be 5 time all nba first team by the end of the season. In his first 6 years!!!
And it is not like he is plateauing in any aspect of his game, he keeps getting better. Why the heck do you think that Gilgeous-Alexander has a better chance to win a MVP than Doncic?

BS biased answer from you Mpoo- SGA got more votes for
MVP JUST LAST YEAR- so in other words to the voters SGA was better than Luka LAST year too-

Stop watching just one guy lol

You again as always ignore the fact that MVP does NOT mean best player. It is a highly narrative driven award that often doesn t go to the best player in the league.
Again: All NBA first team is saying much more about the actual standing of a player in the league.

Noone with actual basketball knowledge will believe that Gilgeous-Alexander is a better player than Doncic.

But you will keep ignoring the fact as you always have.

[Mavrelous]

Small time out from the usual Luka hate fest, here are few anecdotes about Mavs roster this season.
Mavs 2nd star Kyrie missed 23 games.
Mavs only 7 footer before the trade, Lively, missed 20 games.
Mavs backup PG, Exum, missed 27 games, many of which when Kyrie was missing, Luka was the only PG on the team, the other backup guard, Green, also missed 20+ games.
Mavs only PF with size before the trade deadline, Kleber, missed 39 games.

If the only argument against Luka is seeding, he should be the MVP.
Ever since Kyrie came back from injury, Mavs are 17-5 with healthy Luka/Kyrie/Lively.
The argument against Luka shouldn't be lack of wins, he won more than enough with the roster he had, the argument is advanced stats, Jokic is better in all advanced stats except EPM, with SGA it's a mixed bag.

If the field of competition was at the level Jokic had in 22, Luka would've won it from the 6th seed, but it isn't.

[HotRocks34]

OKC beats NOP
DAL beats SAC
LAL beats MIL

[dygaction]

To be clear: My issue here isn't that Doncic shouldn't even be mentioned in the thread, but that it's extremely telling that more has probably been written about him here than someone like Shai who is part of the same draft class and has a better chance at winning the award.

.

Gilgeous-Alexander is not even close to the level of player Doncic is.
Doncic is incredible for 5 straight seasons now.
He will be 5 time all nba first team by the end of the season. In his first 6 years!!!
And it is not like he is plateauing in any aspect of his game, he keeps getting better. Why the heck do you think that Gilgeous-Alexander has a better chance to win a MVP than Doncic?

BS biased answer from you Mpoo- SGA got more votes for
MVP JUST LAST YEAR- so in other words to the voters SGA was better than Luka LAST year too-

Stop watching just one guy lol

Does it really operate that way in your mind? what would happen when Luka and SGA get more votes than Giannis this season?

[Doctor MJ]

Gilgeous-Alexander is not even close to the level of player Doncic is.
Doncic is incredible for 5 straight seasons now.
He will be 5 time all nba first team by the end of the season. In his first 6 years!!!
And it is not like he is plateauing in any aspect of his game, he keeps getting better. Why the heck do you think that Gilgeous-Alexander has a better chance to win a MVP than Doncic?

I mean, go look at MVP charts all over the web. I'm not the one with the fringe opinion.

His case went out the window when he dropped 12 3 and 2 in 30 mins.

Maybe i misread what you said. Thought you were saying that in general Gilgeous-Alexander has a better chance than Doncic at winning the MVP not just this season.

So with Luka you're going to talk about the last 5 seasons, but with Shai all the matters is one bad game? C'mon. Stop trying to fight me like it's just me you're fighting here. Shai's been a Top 2 MVP candidate this year along with Jokic for most of the year. Fine to believe it should not have been the case, but the evidence that it has been the case is everywhere.

Re: Maybe misread. Ah, yes, I was just talking about this thread which was about this year, not about future years.

[dygaction]

OKC beats NOP
DAL beats SAC
LAL beats MIL

This is like a Marathon race with last mile left, and Jokic is half mile ahead; Players behind can narrow the gap but the odds become more one sided with every game passing by.

[Yuri36]

https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/news/luka-doncic-mvp-chances-rise-red-hot-dallas-mavs-climb-west-standings

After throttling the Sacramento Kings 132-96 on Tuesday night, the Mavs moved into sole possession of the No. 6 seed in the Western Conference standings and are now just one game back of the New Orleans Pelicans at the No. 5 seed and 1.5 games back of the Los Angeles Clippers at the No. 4 seed (essentially 2.5 games back given that the Clippers own the regular-season tiebreaker over the Mavs).

Given how bad the Mavs' injury luck was in the first half of this season, it's almost a minor miracle that they're even sniffing home-court advantage in the playoffs. This is a team game, and players like Kyrie Irving, Daniel Gafford, P.J. Washington, Dereck Lively II and other have put their fingerprints on this Dallas surge, but it's Doncic's night-in and night-out consistency that has spearheaded the Mavs' transformation into a title contender.

Luka Doncic, Keegan Murray
Luka Doncic, Keegan Murray
Ezra Shaw/GettyImages
The numbers are unbelievable and undeniable, as Doncic is going to become the first player in NBA history to average 33.9 points, 9.1 rebounds and 9.8 assists during a season. Doncic not only leads the league in scoring, but he's doing so efficiently, shooting 48.7 percent overall and 37.4 percent from deep. His points, assists and 3-point shooting averages are all career-bests, and now that he has a competent supporting cast around him, he's showing the world why he's arguably the best player in it right now

But yeah, for some basketball "experts" there, he is not even close to be the MVP this season.....

Wait, are Jokic or SGA having a 70+ wins seasons?

[MrBigShot]

Luka is probably the single most talented player in the world right now. Wouldn't shock me if he ends up being the best performing player in the playoffs.

That being said, impact wise that hasn't translated to having a better season than Jokic. Luka and SGA are close this season but SGA is a prolific scorer that does so more efficiently and impacts the game on defense. Obviously SGA has the edge team record wise too which historically is crucial for winning MVP.

[Bob8]

Small time out from the usual Luka hate fest, here are few anecdotes about Mavs roster this season.
Mavs 2nd star Kyrie missed 23 games.
Mavs only 7 footer before the trade, Lively, missed 20 games.
Mavs backup PG, Exum, missed 27 games, many of which when Kyrie was missing, Luka was the only PG on the team, the other backup guard, Green, also missed 20+ games.
Mavs only PF with size before the trade deadline, Kleber, missed 39 games.

If the only argument against Luka is seeding, he should be the MVP.
Ever since Kyrie came back from injury, Mavs are 17-5 with healthy Luka/Kyrie/Lively.
The argument against Luka shouldn't be lack of wins, he won more than enough with the roster he had, the argument is advanced stats, Jokic is better in all advanced stats except EPM, with SGA it's a mixed bag.

If the field of competition was at the level Jokic had in 22, Luka would've won it from the 6th seed, but it isn't.

People here don't care about injuries. They don't care how good Mavs are when healthy. Or how improved Luka's +/- is after the trades and more luck with injuries. Funny enough they will always remember you how Jokic was incredible in the 2022 season. 6th place with 48 wins. Mavs will win 50+ this year, with 33 starting lineups and the most used lineup playing less than 200 minutes in the end of the season. Unfortunately Luka is not impactful enough to win 60.

I agree that Jokic gets the award, but not because Denver has more wins than Mavs, but because he had great season. Comparing Luka and SGA is basically comparing, far the most healthy team of the season and far the most injured team of the season. But hey give him 2nd place, nobody cares about those placing anyhow. Luka is far superior as a player. I hope they meet in playoffs, and if Mavs are healthy it will the most one sided series in the West.

[Exp0sed]

People here don't care about injuries. They don't care how good Mavs are when healthy. Or how improved Luka's +/- is after the trades and more luck with injuries. Funny enough they will always remember you how Jokic was incredible in the 2022 season. 6th place with 48 wins. Mavs will win 50+ this year, with 33 starting lineups and the most used lineup playing less than 200 minutes in the end of the season. Unfortunately Luka is not impactful enough to win 60.

I agree that Jokic gets the award, but not because Denver has more wins than Mavs, but because he had great season. Comparing Luka and SGA is basically comparing, far the most healthy team of the season and far the most injured team of the season. But hey give him 2nd place, nobody cares about those placing anyhow. Luka as a player is being superior. I hope they meet in playoffs, and if Mavs are healthy it will the most one sided series in the West.

the 2022 comparison is a bad comp. Jokic was far and away the best and most valuable player in that season. his main competitors played considerably less games than him and despite their teams winning more games - he even had more "individual" wins than Giannis, Embiid etc

Luka has played in 62 games Jokic 69 and SGA 70. has Luka been 10-12% more productive than Jokic or SGA per game?
I mean even if we disregard team wins entirely, we can't every disregar actual games played - you can't be valuable to your team from the bench, period.

all the Mavs injuries, lineups etc are def a factor and Luka is a better player than SGA but he isn't the 2023-4 MVP
fwiw, I think he has been better than SGA (despite playing with a horrible coach and all the injuries etc.) but playing 8 less games makes them a wash, i'd even give SGA the nod for 2nd place primarily for that reason

all of this has nothing to do with Luka's greatness btw. the team didn't have Kyrie and had all the other lineup and roster issues, thus they are where they are cummulatively and the sum of it all is important for MVP but has absoultely no bearing on the coming playoffs

I have the Nuggets, Wolves, Mavs and Clippers as the only teams with an actual realistic shot to win the West and I would place a serious wager on the Mavs beating the OKC in a series, they matchup very well with them and are flat out better in a playoff atmosphere, with that said I still have Luka a hair below SGA cummulatively for the season - you see, the two things aren't mutally exclusive

so to ur point yes, Jokic will win because of those couple of factors, playing 7-8 more games, winning more games individually and as a team, his advanced stats and the general narrative

that's not a knock on Luka at all and he very well may be the best player in the league at 25 (top 3 for sure) but he's not the MVP, he is 2nd or 3rd, depending on how one weighs the different parameters

it's not us on Rgm who "don't care about injuries" it's the award itself and the traditions of it
4th, 5th or 6th seeds don't win MVPs when their competition is better and has won more, even if their teams suffered more injuries

MVP is not a "what if" game

Jokic 2022 was an exception because he literally played with a G-league team for an entire season and his competition was considerably worse, played alot less and even had less individual wins! that isn't the case this year

MVP or not, Luka is well on his way to being a top 10 ATG player

[Mavrelous]

the 2022 comparison is a bad comp. Jokic was far and away the best and most valuable player in that season. his main competitors played considerably less games than him and despite their teams winning more games - he even had more "individual" wins than Giannis, Embiid etc

Luka has played in 62 games Jokic 69 and SGA 70. has Luka been 10-12% more productive than Jokic or SGA per game?
I mean even if we disregard team wins entirely, we can't every disregard actual games played - you can't be valuable to your team from the bench, period.

No one is saying Luka should be an MVP, and no one is saying Jokic shouldn't have been an MVP in 22, in fact I think what Jokic did it 22 is very underrated and one of the best individual players seasons in recent history, he took a very bad team to the PO, something Steph failed to do in 21 and Luka failed to do in 23.
We're saying Luka is having an MVP calibre season, and we're saying that if Luka didn't have Jokic for competition this year, he should be strong MVP candidate, we're also saying, the record argument is asinine, injuries easily account for the 8 games difference in team record between Mavs and DEN/OKC.

[Bob8]

People here don't care about injuries. They don't care how good Mavs are when healthy. Or how improved Luka's +/- is after the trades and more luck with injuries. Funny enough they will always remember you how Jokic was incredible in the 2022 season. 6th place with 48 wins. Mavs will win 50+ this year, with 33 starting lineups and the most used lineup playing less than 200 minutes in the end of the season. Unfortunately Luka is not impactful enough to win 60.

I agree that Jokic gets the award, but not because Denver has more wins than Mavs, but because he had great season. Comparing Luka and SGA is basically comparing, far the most healthy team of the season and far the most injured team of the season. But hey give him 2nd place, nobody cares about those placing anyhow. Luka as a player is being superior. I hope they meet in playoffs, and if Mavs are healthy it will the most one sided series in the West.

the 2022 comparison is a bad comp. Jokic was far and away the best and most valuable player in that season. his main competitors played considerably less games than him and despite their teams winning more games - he even had more "individual" wins than Giannis, Embiid etc

Luka has played in 62 games Jokic 69 and SGA 70. has Luka been 10-12% more productive than Jokic or SGA per game?
I mean even if we disregard team wins entirely, we can't every disregard actual games played - you can't be valuable to your team from the bench, period.

all the Mavs injuries, lineups etc are def a factor and Luka is a better player than SGA but he isn't the 2023 MVP
fwiw, I think he has been better than SGA (despite playing with a horrible coach and all the injuries etc.) but playing 8 less games makes them a wash, i'd even give SGA the nod for 2nd place primarily for that reason

all of this has nothing to do with Luka's greatness btw. the team didn't have Kyrie and had all the other lineup and roster issues, thus they are where they are cummulatively and the sum of it all is important for MVP but has absoultely no bearing on the coming playoffs

I have the Nuggets, Wolves and Mavs and Clippers as the only teams with an actual realistic shot to win the West and I would place a serious wager on the Mavs beating the OKC in a series, they matchup very well with them and are flat out better in a playoff atmosphere, with that said I still have Luka a hair below SGA cummulatively for the season - you see, the two things aren't mutally exclusive

so to ur point yes, Jokic will win because of those couple of factors, playing 7-8 more games, winning more games individually and as a team, his advanced stats and the general narrative

that's not a knock on Luka at all and he very well may be the best player in the league at 25 (top 3 for sure) but he's not the MVP, he is 2nd or 3rd, depending on how one weighs the different parameters

I'm not talking that Luka should win MVP this year, I'm talking about Mavs not winning enough games can't be used as an argument against Luka. Their standings is a minor miracle considering what has happened in first 3 months of the season.

Watching what staring lineup Luka/Kyrie/DJJ/Washington/Gafford is doing, I believe they have pretty solid chances against whoever they play, Denver including. They have 24.7 net rtg and have won all 11 games playing together.

Interesting enough +/- police doesn't care about big shift in Luka's +/-. Not enough games they're saying.

Luka is in 5th position in +/- in last 26 games, better than +/- monster Shai, time when Mavs injured players slowly started returning to the roster.

[Exp0sed]

the 2022 comparison is a bad comp. Jokic was far and away the best and most valuable player in that season. his main competitors played considerably less games than him and despite their teams winning more games - he even had more "individual" wins than Giannis, Embiid etc

Luka has played in 62 games Jokic 69 and SGA 70. has Luka been 10-12% more productive than Jokic or SGA per game?
I mean even if we disregard team wins entirely, we can't every disregard actual games played - you can't be valuable to your team from the bench, period.

No one is saying Luka should be an MVP, and no one is saying Jokic shouldn't have been an MVP in 22, in fact I think what Jokic did it 22 is very underrated and one of the best individual players seasons in recent history, he took a very bad team to the PO, something Steph failed to do in 21 and Luka failed to do in 23.
We're saying Luka is having an MVP calibre season, and we're saying that if Luka didn't have Jokic for competition this year, he should be strong MVP candidate, we're also saying, the record argument is asinine, injuries easily account for the 8 games difference in team record between Mavs and DEN/OKC.

I was under the impression Bob8 was arguing for Luka as MVP, maybe I misunderstood

I agree 100% about Jokic in 2022, it's still somehow an underrated season. bro was really playing with Barton, Morris and Jeff Green.
without Jokic that team would have won 13 games, with him they almost won 50 - that's MVP in any given year

as for the final part, is that in dispute? (other than Doctor MJ's +- continental drift theory haha)
ofc Luka is having an MVP calibre season and on most average years in NBA history he'd easily be the MVP even as a 6th, 5th or 4th seed given the circumstances

but idk about "asinine" it's just the way it is...team wins aren't the only reason Luka isn't MVP. his defense has been horrid at times and he has missed considerably more games than SGA or Jokic

if he had played 69-70 games like those two, i'd have him easily over SGA even if that meant no extra team wins (and it likely would have resulted in a few more wins). he might have even given Jokic a run for his money if those extra wins would have been on the high side but MVP isn't about would\should\could etc - it's about what actually happened and yes, that includes some factors beyond his control, like team injuries, bad coaching etc.

[Mavrelous]

but idk about "asinine" it's just the way it is...team wins aren't the only reason Luka isn't MVP. his defense has been horrid at times and he has missed considerably more games than SGA or Jokic

if he had played 69-70 games like those two, i'd have him easily over SGA even if that meant no extra team wins (and it likely would have resulted in a few more wins). he might have even given Jokic a run for his money if those extra wins would have been on the high side but MVP isn't about would\should\could etc - it's about what actually happened and yes, that includes some factors beyond his control, like team injuries, bad coaching etc.

Players should be held accountable for the rosters they had to work with, Curry missed the PO in 21 and finished 3rd in MVP voting, because he exceeded expectations given what he had to work with, Jokic and Westbrook won it from 6th seed because what they did was better than others getting 1st seed with better rosters.

[Exp0sed]

but idk about "asinine" it's just the way it is...team wins aren't the only reason Luka isn't MVP. his defense has been horrid at times and he has missed considerably more games than SGA or Jokic

if he had played 69-70 games like those two, i'd have him easily over SGA even if that meant no extra team wins (and it likely would have resulted in a few more wins). he might have even given Jokic a run for his money if those extra wins would have been on the high side but MVP isn't about would\should\could etc - it's about what actually happened and yes, that includes some factors beyond his control, like team injuries, bad coaching etc.

Players should be held accountable for the rosters they had to work with, Curry missed the PO in 21 and finished 3rd in MVP voting, because he exceeded expectations given what he had to work with, Jokic and Westbrook won it from 6th seed because what they did was better than others getting 1st seed with better rosters.

Do u think Luka has been better than Jokic if we disregard team wins entirely?

The only argument Luka has over Jokic is his raw ppg and even that obviously stems directly from taking 7 more shots per game

You can't have ur cake and eat it too..
While Luka suffered the downside of injuries and roster\lineup turmoil, as it pertains to his MVP case, he has also recieved the benefits which are - having higher usage and taking way more shots

You can't give him a pass for Mavs injuries while giving him a credit for the inflated raw stats - it's either\or

Sent from my SM-A115F using RealGM mobile app

[Mavrelous]

but idk about "asinine" it's just the way it is...team wins aren't the only reason Luka isn't MVP. his defense has been horrid at times and he has missed considerably more games than SGA or Jokic

if he had played 69-70 games like those two, i'd have him easily over SGA even if that meant no extra team wins (and it likely would have resulted in a few more wins). he might have even given Jokic a run for his money if those extra wins would have been on the high side but MVP isn't about would\should\could etc - it's about what actually happened and yes, that includes some factors beyond his control, like team injuries, bad coaching etc.

Players should be held accountable for the rosters they had to work with, Curry missed the PO in 21 and finished 3rd in MVP voting, because he exceeded expectations given what he had to work with, Jokic and Westbrook won it from 6th seed because what they did was better than others getting 1st seed with better rosters.

Do u think Luka has been better than Jokic if we disregard team wins entirely?

The only argument Luka has over Jokic is his raw ppg and even that obviously stems directly from taking 7 more shots per game

I don't, not for MVP this year and not as a player in general, Jokic is better.

[Bob8]

but idk about "asinine" it's just the way it is...team wins aren't the only reason Luka isn't MVP. his defense has been horrid at times and he has missed considerably more games than SGA or Jokic

if he had played 69-70 games like those two, i'd have him easily over SGA even if that meant no extra team wins (and it likely would have resulted in a few more wins). he might have even given Jokic a run for his money if those extra wins would have been on the high side but MVP isn't about would\should\could etc - it's about what actually happened and yes, that includes some factors beyond his control, like team injuries, bad coaching etc.

Players should be held accountable for the rosters they had to work with, Curry missed the PO in 21 and finished 3rd in MVP voting, because he exceeded expectations given what he had to work with, Jokic and Westbrook won it from 6th seed because what they did was better than others getting 1st seed with better rosters.

Do u think Luka has been better than Jokic if we disregard team wins entirely?

The only argument Luka has over Jokic is his raw ppg and even that obviously stems directly from taking 7 more shots per game

You can't have ur cake and eat it too..
While Luka suffered the downside of injuries and roster\lineup turmoil, as it pertains to his MVP case, he has also recieved the benefits which are - having higher usage and taking way more shots

You can't give him a pass for Mavs injuries while giving him a credit for the inflated raw stats - it's either\or

Sent from my SM-A115F using RealGM mobile app

Are you sure about that? Overall his best month was February, he was player of the month too. November was his far the worst month. He's scoring just 0.7 points less after All star break, while being much better in assists and rebounds.