NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 4: MVP Thread's Revenge)

[dygaction]

Luka with a higher usage rate with the ball stuck to hands twice as long. Jokic gets his team more involved than Luka does earlier in the shot clock. Plays better defense and commands his unit on both sides of floor by calling out plays and defensive strategies. So yes jokic has been more impactful. This is without using “advanced stats” which I could have used quite easily.

P.S. since you brought up Luka having more assists than Jokic Luka has more turnovers than Jokic by a larger margin compared to assists. Funny you didn’t bring that up.

to be fair, you cannot only looking at turnovers to assists when we are talking about a league leading 34ppg scorer. They have very comparable TOV%.

TOV% is an advanced stat which the person I was replying to doesn’t want advanced stats to be brought up. Also turnovers impact games. Less turnovers less possessions lost. You could say Luka has more turnovers because he is more ball dominant which then leads to my point on how Jokic is more impactful because Jokic gets his teammates more involved by holding on to the ball less.

not just more ball dominant but carrying a lot more scoring load. A top scorer can assist 3 times a game with 3 turnovers and still be considered taking good care of the ball. Lots turn overs happen when a player tries to score.

[AleksandarN]

to be fair, you cannot only looking at turnovers to assists when we are talking about a league leading 34ppg scorer. They have very comparable TOV%.

TOV% is an advanced stat which the person I was replying to doesn’t want advanced stats to be brought up. Also turnovers impact games. Less turnovers less possessions lost. You could say Luka has more turnovers because he is more ball dominant which then leads to my point on how Jokic is more impactful because Jokic gets his teammates more involved by holding on to the ball less.

not just more ball dominant but carrying a lot more scoring load. A top scorer can assist 3 times a game with 3 turnovers and still be considered taking good care of the ball. Lots turn overs happen when a player tries to score.

But when you score and turnover the ball less with better efficiency that is more impactful in my books. We are not comparing Luka to an average player. We are comparing him to Jokic

[Doctor MJ]

Luka being a series MVP candidate 5 times in a row before he's turned 26 is pretty crazy. If he patches his defense, he'll get at least one MVP

If you mean "serious", then I would say you overstate things when you say he was a serious candidate each of these past 5 years. There's really never been a time where there was a serious argument going on for him as MVP by season's end. (On the other hand, he's been seen as a serious pre-season MVP candidate as a matter of course for years.)

[Bob8]

Luka being a series MVP candidate 5 times in a row before he's turned 26 is pretty crazy. If he patches his defense, he'll get at least one MVP

If you mean "serious", then I would say you overstate things when you say he was a serious candidate each of these past 5 years. There's really never been a time where there was a serious argument going on for him as MVP by season's end. (On the other hand, he's been seen as a serious pre-season MVP candidate as a matter of course for years.)

You're losing a lot of minutes on a player you seriously dislike.

Serious pre-season MVP candidate? Like all the obvious suspects. He will at least make 5th consecutive first All Nba team, kinda good for non impactful player, don't you think?

[Yuri36]

He hasn't been more impactful than Jokic sorry.

MUCH more points scored, more assists, more steals, 9 less wins BUT overall with a far worse team around this especially if you consider pre-trade Mavs and all the major injuries they had (Kyrie in particular).

And spare me the advanced stats, Joker is a center while Luka is a guard, of course that he will always be a more efficient scorer just by the lesser degree of difficulty of the shots a center takes comparing to a guard.

Luka with a higher usage rate with the ball stuck to hands twice as long. Jokic gets his team more involved than Luka does earlier in the shot clock. Plays better defense and commands his unit on both sides of floor by calling out plays and defensive strategies. So yes jokic has been more impactful. This is without using “advanced stats” which I could have used quite easily.

P.S. since you brought up Luka having more assists than Jokic Luka has more turnovers than Jokic by a larger margin compared to assists. Funny you didn’t bring that up.

Wow incredible, a point guard who has more TOs than a center.....excuse my agressivity but do you frigging know the game of basketball?

[Yuri36]

Either
Yup, totally unfair. That whole way they decide who wins and loses games - counting every teammate rathe than just the star and those he assist to - really is biased against Luka's MVP candidacy. Just not sure if it's because voters hated Slovenia or Texas.

Yup, and instead of just an imaginary healthy Embiid, you forgot a younger LeBron, a jumpier KD, a this-year Tatum with last year stats, and a Steph with his previous supporting cast... So top 10 is on the optimistic side

Either way - Luka isn’t the MVP or the best player on earth yet-

Luka is 25 - he will get his time at least one of these titles at some point . No one doubts this -

That's the usual bullshite some Luka haters or other players fan continuously come with.
Newsflash: what is already taken can't be taken away from you anymore and another newsflash, you never know what can happen in basketball or in life in general.
For all we know, Luka could get an ending career injury next year and then, what will you say about his legacy? Yes, you guess it, that the guy didn't even have a MVP, let alone a NBA ring.
Which is precisely why him not winning a MVP after such an historical season (if only for the 73 points game) and overall all the seasons he's had since he came to NBA would be a massive shame and even an opportunity missed for NBA on the global stage.
And that's no disrespect to Joker who is amazing (and who already got more than his due in the last few seasons in term of personal prizes) or SGA who is a great player but obviously not in Luka Doncic's class.

[Doctor MJ]

Luka being a series MVP candidate 5 times in a row before he's turned 26 is pretty crazy. If he patches his defense, he'll get at least one MVP

If you mean "serious", then I would say you overstate things when you say he was a serious candidate each of these past 5 years. There's really never been a time where there was a serious argument going on for him as MVP by season's end. (On the other hand, he's been seen as a serious pre-season MVP candidate as a matter of course for years.)

You're losing a lot of minutes on a player you seriously dislike.

Serious pre-season MVP candidate? Like all the obvious suspects. He will at least make 5th consecutive first All Nba team, kinda good for non impactful player, don't you think?

I think you're confused if you think hatred of Luka is what's driving me here.

I'm in the MVP thread because I'm in the MVP thread every year.
I'm discussing Luka in the MVP thread because other people think he's an MVP candidate.

Re: serious pre-season MVP candidate? To be clear what I mean: Luka was the #1 pre-season favorite for MVP in most places I saw for '20-21, '21-22 & '22-23. After '19-20, people kept expecting Luka to make the leap, and it was only after 3 seasons of failing to do as well as in the '19-20 voting that people soured on him.

This then to say that if what would down in the record books was the pre-season MVP favorites rather than the actual MVPs, Luka would be the clear cut Player of the 2020s so far.

[Bob8]

Yup, and instead of just an imaginary healthy Embiid, you forgot a younger LeBron, a jumpier KD, a this-year Tatum with last year stats, and a Steph with his previous supporting cast... So top 10 is on the optimistic side

Either way - Luka isn’t the MVP or the best player on earth yet-

Luka is 25 - he will get his time at least one of these titles at some point . No one doubts this -

That's the usual bullshite some Luka haters or other players fan continuously come with.
Newsflash: what is already taken can't be taken away from you anymore and another newsflash, you never know what can happen in basketball or in life in general.
For all we know, Luka could get an ending career injury next year and then, what will you say about his legacy? Yes, you guess it, that the guy didn't even have a MVP, let alone a NBA ring.
Which is precisely why him not winning a MVP after such an historical season (if only for the 73 points game) and overall all the seasons he's had since he came to NBA would be a massive shame and even an opportunity missed for NBA on the global stage.
And that's no disrespect to Joker who is amazing (and who already got more than his due in the last few seasons in term of personal prizes) or SGA who is a great player but obviously not in Luka Doncic's class.

You look to be extremely hyped up.

Jokic and Denver were better this year.

[dygaction]

TOV% is an advanced stat which the person I was replying to doesn’t want advanced stats to be brought up. Also turnovers impact games. Less turnovers less possessions lost. You could say Luka has more turnovers because he is more ball dominant which then leads to my point on how Jokic is more impactful because Jokic gets his teammates more involved by holding on to the ball less.

not just more ball dominant but carrying a lot more scoring load. A top scorer can assist 3 times a game with 3 turnovers and still be considered taking good care of the ball. Lots turn overs happen when a player tries to score.

But when you score and turnover the ball less with better efficiency that is more impactful in my books. We are not comparing Luka to an average player. We are comparing him to Jokic

Not true at all. A player can be more efficient by scoring/turnover less but less impactful. You can compare to anyone in a historical context:

34.0ppg/9.9a/4.0to @ .614TS%/12.5TOV%
26.1ppg/9.0a/2.9to @ .650TS%/12.7TOV%

7.9ppg is really a huge difference to justify the increase in turnover and decrease in efficiency, not to mention the difference between a center and a perimeter player.

[Yuri36]

Either way - Luka isn’t the MVP or the best player on earth yet-

Luka is 25 - he will get his time at least one of these titles at some point . No one doubts this -

That's the usual bullshite some Luka haters or other players fan continuously come with.
Newsflash: what is already taken can't be taken away from you anymore and another newsflash, you never know what can happen in basketball or in life in general.
For all we know, Luka could get an ending career injury next year and then, what will you say about his legacy? Yes, you guess it, that the guy didn't even have a MVP, let alone a NBA ring.
Which is precisely why him not winning a MVP after such an historical season (if only for the 73 points game) and overall all the seasons he's had since he came to NBA would be a massive shame and even an opportunity missed for NBA on the global stage.
And that's no disrespect to Joker who is amazing (and who already got more than his due in the last few seasons in term of personal prizes) or SGA who is a great player but obviously not in Luka Doncic's class.

You look to be extremely hyped up.

Jokic and Denver were better this year.

Sure, Jokic and Denver were better than a Mavs team with Dwight Powell as their main center and with Kyrie out for most of the first part of season.
After the Gafford-PJ trade though and with Kyrie now fully fit, things are surprisingly (lol) not quite the same as we saw in the last Mavs-Nuggets game....and even now, I'd argue Joker has still a better team around him than Luka.

[Petergrifindor]

Jokic and Denver were better this year.

Jokic hasn't been better than Luka this year.

Nobody has.

[AleksandarN]

not just more ball dominant but carrying a lot more scoring load. A top scorer can assist 3 times a game with 3 turnovers and still be considered taking good care of the ball. Lots turn overs happen when a player tries to score.

But when you score and turnover the ball less with better efficiency that is more impactful in my books. We are not comparing Luka to an average player. We are comparing him to Jokic

Not true at all. A player can be more efficient by scoring/turnover less but less impactful. You can compare to anyone in a historical context:

34.0ppg/9.9a/4.0to @ .614TS%/12.5TOV%
26.1ppg/9.0a/2.9to @ .650TS%/12.7TOV%

7.9ppg is really a huge difference to justify the increase in turnover and decrease in efficiency, not to mention the difference between a center and a perimeter player.

I love how Yuri likes your posts when you use advanced stats. Lol. Yet he doesn’t want the numerous advanced stats that are in favour of Jokic over Luka.

[AleksandarN]

Jokic and Denver were better this year.

Jokic hasn't been better than Luka this year.

Nobody has.

What ways has Luka been better. What makes Luka more valuable than Jokic

[CobraCommander]

That's the usual bullshite some Luka haters or other players fan continuously come with.
Newsflash: what is already taken can't be taken away from you anymore and another newsflash, you never know what can happen in basketball or in life in general.
For all we know, Luka could get an ending career injury next year and then, what will you say about his legacy? Yes, you guess it, that the guy didn't even have a MVP, let alone a NBA ring.
Which is precisely why him not winning a MVP after such an historical season (if only for the 73 points game) and overall all the seasons he's had since he came to NBA would be a massive shame and even an opportunity missed for NBA on the global stage.
And that's no disrespect to Joker who is amazing (and who already got more than his due in the last few seasons in term of personal prizes) or SGA who is a great player but obviously not in Luka Doncic's class.

You look to be extremely hyped up.

Jokic and Denver were better this year.

Sure, Jokic and Denver were better than a Mavs team with Dwight Powell at their main center and with Kyrie out for most of the first part of season.
After the Gafford-PJ trade though and with Kyrie now fully fit, things are surprisingly (lol) not quite the same as we saw in the last Mavs-Nuggets game....and even now, I'd argue Joker has still a better team around him than Luka.

You too hyped to be a guy that doesn’t play ball for the Mavs or have a vested interest in that man’s life.

In my OPINION Luka isn’t the best player on earth - not top 3 somewhere between 4 and 5…. Could be lower depending on the game.

I never thought Harden - who shot better when he was at his peak and a better passer at his peak as well, he was never the best player in the league ever either.

Luka is fun to watch and we all love Luka but to not bow to him isn’t blasphemy unless you actually think he is Luka god.

[Sgt Major]

Read on Twitter

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[Bob8]

If you mean "serious", then I would say you overstate things when you say he was a serious candidate each of these past 5 years. There's really never been a time where there was a serious argument going on for him as MVP by season's end. (On the other hand, he's been seen as a serious pre-season MVP candidate as a matter of course for years.)

You're losing a lot of minutes on a player you seriously dislike.

Serious pre-season MVP candidate? Like all the obvious suspects. He will at least make 5th consecutive first All Nba team, kinda good for non impactful player, don't you think?

I think you're confused if you think hatred of Luka is what's driving me here.

I'm in the MVP thread because I'm in the MVP thread every year.
I'm discussing Luka in the MVP thread because other people think he's an MVP candidate.

Re: serious pre-season MVP candidate? To be clear what I mean: Luka was the #1 pre-season favorite for MVP in most places I saw for '20-21, '21-22 & '22-23. After '19-20, people kept expecting Luka to make the leap, and it was only after 3 seasons of failing to do as well as in the '19-20 voting that people soured on him.

This then to say that if what would down in the record books was the pre-season MVP favorites rather than the actual MVPs, Luka would be the clear cut Player of the 2020s so far.

You are kinda presenting being pre-season favourite as going against Luka.

To win MVP you first need to have a fantastic season and then have a team good enough. Both normally don't happen when you're around 20 years old.

He would have been on GOAT trajectory if he had won those MVPs. Maybe expectations were a bit too high? Being in 5 consecutive first Nba teams is still kinda good for 25 years old player, don't you think?

[Petergrifindor]

What ways has Luka been better. What makes Luka more valuable than Jokic

8 more points per game and a way more difficult carry job.

[AleksandarN]

not just more ball dominant but carrying a lot more scoring load. A top scorer can assist 3 times a game with 3 turnovers and still be considered taking good care of the ball. Lots turn overs happen when a player tries to score.

But when you score and turnover the ball less with better efficiency that is more impactful in my books. We are not comparing Luka to an average player. We are comparing him to Jokic

Not true at all. A player can be more efficient by scoring/turnover less but less impactful. You can compare to anyone in a historical context:

34.0ppg/9.9a/4.0to @ .614TS%/12.5TOV%
26.1ppg/9.0a/2.9to @ .650TS%/12.7TOV%

7.9ppg is really a huge difference to justify the increase in turnover and decrease in efficiency, not to mention the difference between a center and a perimeter player.

Btw I could go full on advanced stats but then what is the fun in that to compare Luka and jokic. I haven’t

[AleksandarN]

What ways has Luka been better. What makes Luka more valuable than Jokic

8 more points per game and a way more difficult carry job.

PPG really. Ok then Embiid is better than Luka if we are strictly going with ppg. What are we even doing here

[Bob8]

Jokic and Denver were better this year.

Jokic hasn't been better than Luka this year.

Nobody has.

He kinda was.