Jordan's iso efficiency with just his left hand compared to iso efficiency of today's players.

[Lalouie]

so when you say "with one hand tied behind his back", you mean it

[Snake3]

Not comparable. Isolation is a different beast with and without illegal defense.

But it was isolation with no good spacing and with no 3 defensive second.

All and all, it was a different game back then.

And MJ play style was just two-three dribbles and then he makes a shot or a pass. He was always quick with his decision making.

No defensive 3 second doesn’t really matter in an era of illegal defense because you have to be near a man and guard them. If you move your center out the paint, the other center can’t sit there. 3 seconds was introduced after illegal defense was taken out the game.

They didn't play like that often, which why it mattered. The reason why they put in the 3 seconds rule is to increase scoring because the bigs like Shaq and Mutombo were abusing the rules. You would think you would have a big to that would pull them away, but it didn't work that way back then. They would sag big time, and at times they wouldn't even call illegal defense. And there was importance of getting the offensive boards. Don't get me wrong, they did do it at times when they put MJ on a island where the lane and the paint was open. But equally, it wasn't uncommon for the paint to be crowded too.

The scoring was a low in the 00s. And the 00s had better spacing than the 80s and the 90s. Not to mention you had two bigs in there. It was worse in the 80s than it was in the 90s. It wasn't uncommon to see bad spacing and bigs just parked in the paint, but MJ just destroyed most defense because of his play style. His iso game was getting to his spot in 3 dribbles or less and shoot and he had a quick first step, so it was pretty hard to guard. It would be hard to guard in any era. This was without spacing.

There are advantages and disadvantages because of the rules in any era. Including coaching philosophy. But the notion that MJ didn't have a left is crazy. The Pistons did force him left because he was weaker there, but he was still deadly. We already have the data. It shows that ppl didn't really watch the game and buying into an joking claim too seriously.

[Ein Sof]

For someone who watched the video: Did he compare Jordan going left to other players going to their non-dominant hand? That comparison is necessary before we can assign value to this one. We also need to know the rate at which everyone in the comparison went to their dominant vs non-dominant hand. Surprising a defender by doing the opposite of what you expect them to, so if you don't go left or right very often it gives you an advantage when you do.

For example, I'm assuming Jordan was more efficient going to his left on iso's than he was going right, but that doesn't mean he was better going left than right.


I'm sure a lot of this was covered by the creator and I'm sure it's a good video, but 25 minutes. TLDW please.

The video explicitly points out that he went to his left MORE than to his right, and shot about the same.

How can you "surprise" someone by doing the same thing you always do?

[DCasey91]

He’d still be the quickest outright mover today. Even though the double step pivot was illegal he was just too quick for anybody especially if he did get guarded face to face which happened a lot


Dude worked on his skills from College and late 80’s onwards in the NBA. Wouldn’t be surprised if the efficiency rose along with the midrange game through exp

91 Jordan to me is pretty much a flawless player.

[FreeBird23]

Even in an era where the defense is non-existent, they can't compete with his Airness.

[KayDee35]

This seems like a cut and dry case of cherry-picking data to fit a narrative. If you fell for it, you need to bone up on your critical thinking skills.

First, MJ is not the god of PPP. That honor belongs to Kiki VanDeWeghe. In addition, Durant, Reggie Millier, Amar'e, and John Collins have a higher single season PPP than MJ. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-503816.html

Second, MJ was the NBA's golden boy and the refs whistles knew this too. MJ's PPP on an Iso Jumper, Pull up Jumper, and Runners/Leaners was 1.16, 1.07, and 1.03 respectively. Those are solid numbers. But MJ's PPP when he drove to the basket was an insane 1.5! When you give an all-time great finisher one of the all-time friendliest whistles in an era where the rules favor isolations, it's unsurprising to see MJ's PPP being so high. https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/18w8fox/19901992_michael_jordan_shot_chart/

If your BS radar didn't go off for this topic then I you're a prime target for people selling bridges.

[mysticb]

This stat isn't too good for comparison purposes, because it's based only on several selected games, which also are probably somehow special ("greates games" series and so on, so it's more likely MJ had great performance) so it's not representative from statistical point of view. More telling would be tracking from whole playoff series or whole playoff run (+ other player from that time to have a reference point).

[Heej]

Based on what?

Based on it being a more regular move and much less help defense and no zone either.

More suited to isolation play than 00s or later.

More teams iso’d in the post Jordan era from a volume standing, but I’ve never seen anything suggesting that iso’s are less efficient now than they were, considering how easy it is to draw fouls and the space.

I’d love to see the efficiency numbers on isos, I’d guess they are more efficient now.

Surely you aren't talking about foul drawing now as if players of this era had it easier than Jordan in the 90s with regards to how refs whistled them? Because that would be hilarious. That man was an outlier among outliers on film when you see the type of ticky tack fouls he got awarded every game. At least 2018 Harden had the skills to bait people, Jordan literally walked into free throws.

And anyone with a cursory understanding of rotations can see how doubles, swarms, and stunts are able to be enacted from shorter distances and are more cleverly disguised in the modern era considering how just the existence of the illegal defense rule (even if it wasn't called every possession) had its own gravitational pull that you can clearly see had 90s players one step closer to their man in their most aggressive help packages compared to now.

But hey, when faced with the possibility of cognitive dissonance I too would simply make an impossible demand like "show me the numbers for all isos in the 90s vs now" instead of considering how rule changes, player quality, and coaching quality have made for a more competitive overall landscape in the modern era.

[NO-KG-AI]

Based on it being a more regular move and much less help defense and no zone either.

More suited to isolation play than 00s or later.

More teams iso’d in the post Jordan era from a volume standing, but I’ve never seen anything suggesting that iso’s are less efficient now than they were, considering how easy it is to draw fouls and the space.

I’d love to see the efficiency numbers on isos, I’d guess they are more efficient now.

Surely you aren't talking about foul drawing now as if players of this era had it easier than Jordan in the 90s with regards to how refs whistled them? Because that would be hilarious. That man was an outlier among outliers on film when you see the type of ticky tack fouls he got awarded every game. At least 2018 Harden had the skills to bait people, Jordan literally walked into free throws.

And anyone with a cursory understanding of rotations can see how doubles, swarms, and stunts are able to be enacted from shorter distances and are more cleverly disguised in the modern era considering how just the existence of the illegal defense rule (even if it wasn't called every possession) had its own gravitational pull that you can clearly see had 90s players one step closer to their man in their most aggressive help packages compared to now.

But hey, when faced with the possibility of cognitive dissonance I too would simply make an impossible demand like "show me the numbers for all isos in the 90s vs now" instead of considering how rule changes, player quality, and coaching quality have made for a more competitive overall landscape in the modern era.

Yea, I'm talking about the era where we're pushing 50% on 3 point attempts, and dudes just have to pull their head back to get a foul. Not the outlier slashers getting foul calls. Not the guy with a picture of LeBron as his avatar coming to tell us we're all wrong for not thinking poor poor LeBron's era where you can't breath on anyone is soooo hard to draw fouls in :'( I'm the one with cognitive dissonance.

I'm not demanding anything, he came here and said isos are less efficient now than they were. We all know that's not true, you can assign whatever reason you want. We know what your excuse is for why some guys have less success doing it. Lets just not pretend they are less effficient, as opposed to less used. You're going off on some entire tangent about era competitiveness because your brain can't do anything but find a way to make an excuse for LeBron in a thread, it's literally the only time you comment or appear.

[MavsDirk41]

Based on it being a more regular move and much less help defense and no zone either.

More suited to isolation play than 00s or later.

More teams iso’d in the post Jordan era from a volume standing, but I’ve never seen anything suggesting that iso’s are less efficient now than they were, considering how easy it is to draw fouls and the space.

I’d love to see the efficiency numbers on isos, I’d guess they are more efficient now.

Surely you aren't talking about foul drawing now as if players of this era had it easier than Jordan in the 90s with regards to how refs whistled them? Because that would be hilarious. That man was an outlier among outliers on film when you see the type of ticky tack fouls he got awarded every game. At least 2018 Harden had the skills to bait people, Jordan literally walked into free throws.

And anyone with a cursory understanding of rotations can see how doubles, swarms, and stunts are able to be enacted from shorter distances and are more cleverly disguised in the modern era considering how just the existence of the illegal defense rule (even if it wasn't called every possession) had its own gravitational pull that you can clearly see had 90s players one step closer to their man in their most aggressive help packages compared to now.

But hey, when faced with the possibility of cognitive dissonance I too would simply make an impossible demand like "show me the numbers for all isos in the 90s vs now" instead of considering how rule changes, player quality, and coaching quality have made for a more competitive overall landscape in the modern era.

Lol player quality? The nba is deeper because of the international talent but do you want to compare the nba finals teams from last year to any year in the 90s? So Miami and Denver were head and shoulders above finals teams in the 90s i guess right?

Rule changes? They changed it but how many years were offensive players allowed to pump fake and then literally jump straight into the defender and be rewarded with free throws? Players were flopping so much they are now calling a technical foul on players egregiously caught flopping. And coaching quality? Lol what?

[Lockdown504090]

More teams iso’d in the post Jordan era from a volume standing, but I’ve never seen anything suggesting that iso’s are less efficient now than they were, considering how easy it is to draw fouls and the space.

I’d love to see the efficiency numbers on isos, I’d guess they are more efficient now.

Surely you aren't talking about foul drawing now as if players of this era had it easier than Jordan in the 90s with regards to how refs whistled them? Because that would be hilarious. That man was an outlier among outliers on film when you see the type of ticky tack fouls he got awarded every game. At least 2018 Harden had the skills to bait people, Jordan literally walked into free throws.

And anyone with a cursory understanding of rotations can see how doubles, swarms, and stunts are able to be enacted from shorter distances and are more cleverly disguised in the modern era considering how just the existence of the illegal defense rule (even if it wasn't called every possession) had its own gravitational pull that you can clearly see had 90s players one step closer to their man in their most aggressive help packages compared to now.

But hey, when faced with the possibility of cognitive dissonance I too would simply make an impossible demand like "show me the numbers for all isos in the 90s vs now" instead of considering how rule changes, player quality, and coaching quality have made for a more competitive overall landscape in the modern era.

Lol player quality? The nba is deeper because of the international talent but do you want to compare the nba finals teams from last year to any year in the 90s? So Miami and Denver were head and shoulders above finals teams in the 90s i guess right?

Rule changes? They changed it but how many years were offensive players allowed to pump fake and then literally jump straight into the defender and be rewarded with free throws? Players were flopping so much they are now calling a technical foul on players egregiously caught flopping. And coaching quality? Lol what?

As a coach, thats the one area thats definitely gotten better. Teams have more coaches. more numbers. more trainers. its easier to spread information. I went to a coaching clinic in spain vegas and australlia without leaving my house and I get to take all that information and give it to my players wheras my coach couldnt do that when I was playing without taking trips. teams have double the coaches they had 20 years ago, undisputable fact.... and they have big data companies on top of that.

[MavsDirk41]

Surely you aren't talking about foul drawing now as if players of this era had it easier than Jordan in the 90s with regards to how refs whistled them? Because that would be hilarious. That man was an outlier among outliers on film when you see the type of ticky tack fouls he got awarded every game. At least 2018 Harden had the skills to bait people, Jordan literally walked into free throws.

And anyone with a cursory understanding of rotations can see how doubles, swarms, and stunts are able to be enacted from shorter distances and are more cleverly disguised in the modern era considering how just the existence of the illegal defense rule (even if it wasn't called every possession) had its own gravitational pull that you can clearly see had 90s players one step closer to their man in their most aggressive help packages compared to now.

But hey, when faced with the possibility of cognitive dissonance I too would simply make an impossible demand like "show me the numbers for all isos in the 90s vs now" instead of considering how rule changes, player quality, and coaching quality have made for a more competitive overall landscape in the modern era.

Lol player quality? The nba is deeper because of the international talent but do you want to compare the nba finals teams from last year to any year in the 90s? So Miami and Denver were head and shoulders above finals teams in the 90s i guess right?

Rule changes? They changed it but how many years were offensive players allowed to pump fake and then literally jump straight into the defender and be rewarded with free throws? Players were flopping so much they are now calling a technical foul on players egregiously caught flopping. And coaching quality? Lol what?

As a coach, thats the one area thats definitely gotten better. Teams have more coaches. more numbers. more trainers. its easier to spread information. I went to a coaching clinic in spain vegas and australlia without leaving my house and I get to take all that information and give it to my players wheras my coach couldnt do that when I was playing without taking trips. teams have double the coaches they had 20 years ago, undisputable fact.... and they have big data companies on top of that.

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense but we have Jason Kidd so you can probably understand my frustration with that topic. His rotations, in game adjustments, overall strategy, and stupid comments after losses are mind blowing.

[ballzboyee]

More teams iso’d in the post Jordan era from a volume standing, but I’ve never seen anything suggesting that iso’s are less efficient now than they were, considering how easy it is to draw fouls and the space.

I’d love to see the efficiency numbers on isos, I’d guess they are more efficient now.

Surely you aren't talking about foul drawing now as if players of this era had it easier than Jordan in the 90s with regards to how refs whistled them? Because that would be hilarious. That man was an outlier among outliers on film when you see the type of ticky tack fouls he got awarded every game. At least 2018 Harden had the skills to bait people, Jordan literally walked into free throws.

And anyone with a cursory understanding of rotations can see how doubles, swarms, and stunts are able to be enacted from shorter distances and are more cleverly disguised in the modern era considering how just the existence of the illegal defense rule (even if it wasn't called every possession) had its own gravitational pull that you can clearly see had 90s players one step closer to their man in their most aggressive help packages compared to now.

But hey, when faced with the possibility of cognitive dissonance I too would simply make an impossible demand like "show me the numbers for all isos in the 90s vs now" instead of considering how rule changes, player quality, and coaching quality have made for a more competitive overall landscape in the modern era.

Lol player quality? The nba is deeper because of the international talent but do you want to compare the nba finals teams from last year to any year in the 90s? So Miami and Denver were head and shoulders above finals teams in the 90s i guess right?

Rule changes? They changed it but how many years were offensive players allowed to pump fake and then literally jump straight into the defender and be rewarded with free throws? Players were flopping so much they are now calling a technical foul on players egregiously caught flopping. And coaching quality? Lol what?

Some of the hype about today's talent is a lot of revisionist history. Fans and media at one point circa 2010 was actually talking about contraction because it was perceived that there just wasn't enough to available talent to fill total available roster spots. The argument being is that you can the bottom bottom 5 to 7 players on any roster and switch them around at random for other teams 5 to 7, and it would not change the standings very much, if at all. Once you get outside of an 8 man rotation, all bets are off in terms of discussions of talent. We don't really know how good these players are without the benefit retrospection like we have with the 90's and other eras, and you have a lot players who are limited contributors. The idea that these guys are capable of going back to the 90's and 2000's and starting is just ridiculous and pure fantasy. There's plenty of scrubs out on the court today too if you pay to attention.

Funnily enough, the talent crunch in the NBA was solved by freedom of movement emphasis and opening up the league to overseas players. So in a little over a decade the league went from a perceived talent deficit where contraction was considered possible to floating expansion today. I would argue that the league has moved from a superstar driven league to a shooter's democracy from a competitive standpoint. It's much easier from a physical standpoint to be a pure shooter standing behind 3-point line jacking shot after shot than it is to be a niche a player such as a physical rebounding enforcer in 1990's to 2000's. One of those guys is not like the other in terms absolute pure raw athleticism.

To put it another way, they say ultimate test of athleticism is who wins in fight. So define "skill" and "athleticism." In a fight my rebounding goon from the 90's is going to beat up your pure shooter from today's in NBA. Sure, maybe there is more overall "talent" that probably contributes to scoring the basketball, but I would say that the talent is distributed and concentrated in one or two narrow particular areas, especially in terms of just shooting the three. Is there more overall talent when you take account all the different skills that were required to build a competitive NBA roster in the 90's and 2000's? I am not sure you can make that argument.

[DC_Melo]

You'd have to compare to iso efficiency of the time since iso was more efficient back then generally.

Based on what?

Based on it being a more regular move and much less help defense and no zone either.

More suited to isolation play than 00s or later.

1. It being a more regular move impacts volume, not efficiency. If anything, efficiency usually decreases with higher volume.
2. Less help defense? Double teaming was a super common tactic to employ in the 90’s. Where is this coming from? It’s like you’re making up more fictitious claims to support your first fictitious claim. Just provide a link to a source if what you’re saying is really true.
3. NBA rules have never been so offensive friendly in any era as they are now… defenses were more empowered, not less empowered, to clamp down on a streaking player in the 90’s
4. Defenses in Jordan’s era were SIGNIFICANTLY less concerned about defending the 3 ball, and could much more easily shift closer to the basket or to an iso side play since they were less stretched out/scattered around the perimeter

[Gregoire]

More teams iso’d in the post Jordan era from a volume standing, but I’ve never seen anything suggesting that iso’s are less efficient now than they were, considering how easy it is to draw fouls and the space.

I’d love to see the efficiency numbers on isos, I’d guess they are more efficient now.

Surely you aren't talking about foul drawing now as if players of this era had it easier than Jordan in the 90s with regards to how refs whistled them? Because that would be hilarious. That man was an outlier among outliers on film when you see the type of ticky tack fouls he got awarded every game. At least 2018 Harden had the skills to bait people, Jordan literally walked into free throws.

And anyone with a cursory understanding of rotations can see how doubles, swarms, and stunts are able to be enacted from shorter distances and are more cleverly disguised in the modern era considering how just the existence of the illegal defense rule (even if it wasn't called every possession) had its own gravitational pull that you can clearly see had 90s players one step closer to their man in their most aggressive help packages compared to now.

But hey, when faced with the possibility of cognitive dissonance I too would simply make an impossible demand like "show me the numbers for all isos in the 90s vs now" instead of considering how rule changes, player quality, and coaching quality have made for a more competitive overall landscape in the modern era.

Yea, I'm talking about the era where we're pushing 50% on 3 point attempts, and dudes just have to pull their head back to get a foul. Not the outlier slashers getting foul calls. Not the guy with a picture of LeBron as his avatar coming to tell us we're all wrong for not thinking poor poor LeBron's era where you can't breath on anyone is soooo hard to draw fouls in :'( I'm the one with cognitive dissonance.

I'm not demanding anything, he came here and said isos are less efficient now than they were. We all know that's not true, you can assign whatever reason you want. We know what your excuse is for why some guys have less success doing it. Lets just not pretend they are less effficient, as opposed to less used. You're going off on some entire tangent about era competitiveness because your brain can't do anything but find a way to make an excuse for LeBron in a thread, it's literally the only time you comment or appear.

You dont understand! LeBron has so much better basketball IQ than everybody, that he literally gains advantage from ANY circumstances and referring!!

Watch on YouTube

[Ein Sof]

This seems like a cut and dry case of cherry-picking data to fit a narrative. If you fell for it, you need to bone up on your critical thinking skills.

First, MJ is not the god of PPP. That honor belongs to Kiki VanDeWeghe. In addition, Durant, Reggie Millier, Amar'e, and John Collins have a higher single season PPP than MJ. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-503816.html

Second, MJ was the NBA's golden boy and the refs whistles knew this too. MJ's PPP on an Iso Jumper, Pull up Jumper, and Runners/Leaners was 1.16, 1.07, and 1.03 respectively. Those are solid numbers. But MJ's PPP when he drove to the basket was an insane 1.5! When you give an all-time great finisher one of the all-time friendliest whistles in an era where the rules favor isolations, it's unsurprising to see MJ's PPP being so high. https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/18w8fox/19901992_michael_jordan_shot_chart/

If your BS radar didn't go off for this topic then I you're a prime target for people selling bridges.

You'd think that PPP list would be nothing but names from the 2010s and 2020s, since scoring is just so easy today.

Oh well.

[WhateverBro]

Youtuber JxmyHighroller tracked and then compared Jordan's left hand points per iso efficiency against the league's best iso scorers today while using either hand. Turns out Jordan's iso efficiency with only his left hand is far superior to any player in the league even removing Jordan's dominant hand in the comparison. Jordan's ability to finish with his left hand was basically unparalleled in the history of basketball for a wing iso finsher.



For those who want to watch the video breakdown and analysis. Analysis of Jordan's iso scoring numbers starts at 19m mark for those who do not want to watch whole video.

Watch on YouTube

Unless JxmyHighroller is realgm user Dipper 13, you're wrong. Its also not left handed points per iso, its when he drives left. You might want to look at this thread.

viewtopic.php?t=1286698

[ballzboyee]

Youtuber JxmyHighroller tracked and then compared Jordan's left hand points per iso efficiency against the league's best iso scorers today while using either hand. Turns out Jordan's iso efficiency with only his left hand is far superior to any player in the league even removing Jordan's dominant hand in the comparison. Jordan's ability to finish with his left hand was basically unparalleled in the history of basketball for a wing iso finsher.



For those who want to watch the video breakdown and analysis. Analysis of Jordan's iso scoring numbers starts at 19m mark for those who do not want to watch whole video.

Watch on YouTube

Unless JxmyHighroller is realgm user Dipper 13, you're wrong. Its also not left handed points per iso, its when he drives left. You might want to look at this thread.

viewtopic.php?t=1286698

Even if conceded, your point is just semantics. Obviously, the term "finishing" here is used describe plays in which Jordan used his non-dominant hand primarily to make a move to basket in scoring situation. The other players are judged by the same standard, so this is still a valid comparison. The critique was that Jordan had absolutely no left hand, and this was thrown around loosely in a viral marketing attempt/propaganda piece to imply that Jordan had no bag, no control, or ability with his left hand at all. I am not doing the work for you. I posted a video and made no claims that it was my interpretation of a shot chart. However, anybody who has even watched a single game of Jordan knows that he is one of the most skilled players with either hand either in traffic or in the open court in the history of the game. In fact, for his size he is the absolute peak of skill in this regard. So not only is the criticism not true, it is the opposite of the truth. It's character assassination and slander. All the video does is correct a gross mischaracterization.

Honestly, it is such low basketball IQ take to say Jordan sucks with his left hand that anybody who makes such a claim is blatant trolling and should never be taken seriously, and such a claim is probably not even worth the response. However, since some people apparently do believe such stupid nonsense, you have people like this youtuber creating a serious response to debunk it. I don't really need a bunch of stats to know Jordan was the elite of the elite off the dribble with either hand, but maybe some other basketball fans do.

[WhateverBro]

Youtuber JxmyHighroller tracked and then compared Jordan's left hand points per iso efficiency against the league's best iso scorers today while using either hand. Turns out Jordan's iso efficiency with only his left hand is far superior to any player in the league even removing Jordan's dominant hand in the comparison. Jordan's ability to finish with his left hand was basically unparalleled in the history of basketball for a wing iso finsher.



For those who want to watch the video breakdown and analysis. Analysis of Jordan's iso scoring numbers starts at 19m mark for those who do not want to watch whole video.

Watch on YouTube

Unless JxmyHighroller is realgm user Dipper 13, you're wrong. Its also not left handed points per iso, its when he drives left. You might want to look at this thread.

viewtopic.php?t=1286698

Even if conceded, your point is just semantics. Obviously, the term "finishing" here is used describe plays in which Jordan used his non-dominant hand primarily to make a move to basket in scoring situation. The other players are judged by the same standard, so this is still a valid comparison. The critique was that Jordan had absolutely no left hand, and this was thrown around loosely in a viral marketing attempt/propaganda piece to imply that Jordan had no bag, no control, or ability with his left hand at all. I am not doing the work for you. I posted a video and made no claims that it was my interpretation of a shot chart. However, anybody who has even watched a single game of Jordan knows that he is one of the most skilled players with either hand either in traffic or in the open court in the history of the game. In fact, for his size he is the absolute peak of skill in this regard. So not only is the criticism not true, it is the opposite of the truth. It's character assassination and slander. All the video does is correct a gross mischaracterization.

Honestly, it is such low basketball IQ take to say Jordan sucks with his left hand that anybody who makes such a claim is blatant trolling and should never be taken seriously, and such a claim is probably not even worth the response. However, since some people apparently do believe such stupid nonsense, you have people like this youtuber creating a serious response to debunk it. I don't really need a bunch of stats to know Jordan was the elite of the elite off the dribble with either hand, but maybe some other basketball fans do.

The youtuber stole the work of a realgm user and didnt give credit. The youtuber also tries to mislead by calling it left handed points per iso and not points per drives to the left. Dipper 13 doesnt mention the left hand in his thread.

[DOT]

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