Lowest possible ranking for Lebron

[BmanInBigD]

I think the following guys have cases over Lebron (in no particular order):

Jordan
Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird

Therefore, my lowest possible ranking for Lebron is 7th all time.

Kobe,Duncan,Hakeem were all better..probably Curry too. Isaiah Thomas is about dead even , but gets the nod on leader ship, toughness and courage on the big moment. So basically LeBron is outside of the top10 at best. Recency bias , fake attendance accolades and ,scripted media narratives don't fool those who saw the greats play.

I saw all the greats play, and anyone who thinks IT is even in the same stratosphere as Lebron is just trying to get a reaction. Which you did. Congrats...

That said, IMO only KAJ and MJ have any decent case over him all-time. Duncan? Aw hell no. Kobe? bwahaha. Curry? May I have some of what's in your pipe?

[BmanInBigD]

oops...dp

[lessthanjake]

I think the argument about LeBron’s record in the Finals is a bit silly by itself. Like, exalting one’s record specifically in the Finals logically leads to some dumb conclusions, like that it’s better to lose in the conference finals than to lose in the finals. If LeBron were 4-0 in the Finals and had instead lost in the conference finals (or earlier) in the six years he lost in the Finals in reality, then that would be unambiguously worse than being 4-6 in the Finals.

That said, where I think his Finals record is worth talking about is that there were some years where he was in such a weak conference that the opponent in the Finals was the only really good team he played. I wouldn’t say this makes losing in the Finals bad, but I think it makes those Finals appearances less impressive—there are basically years where he beat pretty mediocre teams and then lost easily the first time he faced a good team, which is less impressive than getting through difficult teams and then losing in the Finals. LeBron lost in the Finals in 2007, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2017, and 2018. IMO, his teams did not face a good opponent before the Finals in 2014 or 2017. In 2015 and 2018, they didn’t face any good team except maybe one team that was a pretty good regular season team that year but was a pretty quintessential and obvious playoff-paper-tiger due to having an ensemble cast and no real star. So I don’t really think they faced a good team in those years either. The 2007 run is arguably similar to 2015 and 2017, but feels a bit harder to me because, even though the Pistons had a down year that year and didn’t have a major star, their core proved they weren’t a playoff paper tiger. And I think LeBron clearly did face good opponents prior to the Finals in 2011. Overall, when combined with the fact that LeBron’s teams in these years generally also lost pretty easily in the Finals, I think we can probably infer that he likely wouldn’t have made the Finals most of those years if he’d been in a conference that wasn’t bad. To me, that’s a legitimate point to make about his career, which does put the significance of the 10 Finals appearances into perspective. But the irony is that people who focus on the idea that LeBron has a losing record in the Finals would actually apparently think more highly of LeBron if he’d been in a tough conference and simply not made the Finals in the vast majority of those years, because his “Finals record” would be better. To me, making 10 Finals is really impressive and definitely a good thing even if he lost 6 of them, but it’s just less impressive than it would be if his conference wasn’t frequently a cakewalk followed by his team losing easily in the Finals.

[Goomba3666]

It is not difficult to justify at all. He carried his team as the number 1 option to the finals 8 consecutive times.

He is a 4x champion and 4x finals MVP and 4x MVP on top of that.

At lowest, he is #3 behind Kareem and MJ. I have him #2 behind MJ. Again, not difficult at all.

And lost most of them. I'm not interested in his participation trophies.

Except he is a 4x champion. And 4x finals MVP. This proves without a doubt he can lead a time to a championship time and time again.

Again, he carried his team to the finals 10x (8 consecutive years) and won 4x. Lebron gets you in the finals automatically each year at minimum.

Eight consecutive years *in the Eastern Conference.*


Got out West and couldnt crack 40 games until AD showed up. Got AD and only made the finals one time. If you give credit for just ‘making it to the finals’, you need to give extra credit to players who played in the more competitive conference the bulk of their careers.

[Goomba3666]

And Jordan was a 9-time loser right? He played 15 years and only won 6. What is the difference between losing in the playoffs and the finals?

And yeah you can make as many excuses as you want, but Lebron won a championship in 2 different conferences and 3 different teams. Nothing you say can change that. Again, 4x champion, 4x finals MVP, and 4x MVP. He was leader on every level.

Winning on deck stacked teams of his choosing is not a good thing.

Except he beat the golden state warrior who won 67 games with Kyrie Irving as the #2. He has proven he doesn't need a stack them. He also carried his teams to 8 consecutive finals and been in the finals 10 times, and every Cavs fan would tell you, those were not stacked teams. Also, he won a championship with AD as a #2. If you think that should be discredited, then Kobe only has 2 championship since he played with Shaq, who is universally known to be greater than AD. Also, Kareem and Magic have zero championship since they played together and they are both arguably top 5 players of all time, and AD wasn't.

So keep making excuses. Lebron won 4x championship and has 4x finals MVP. Nothing will change that.

Kyrie was the second best player in that series and comfortably outplayed Curry in 2016. Saying he’s a “number two” is wild. He looked like the best player on the court at times.

[Iwasawitness]

Stop it. So Jordan only has 4 rings right? Paxson saved him in the Suns series and Kerr saved him in the Utah series. Kyrie wouldn't even be in the Finals without riding Lebron's coattails. Stop it. Also, Lebron won Finals MVP. Don't forget that. You can cry about manufactured hype or corporate branding all you want. You can't deny this though:

4x champion, 4x Finals MVP, 4x MVP, 20 time all-star, 1st in points, 4th in assists.

lol

..Ill pick a random GOAT level player.....Explain why Lebron is automatically considered better than Dnncan?

Dude just rolled in from day 1 and put a championship contender on the floor every day for almost 20 years till he hung it up, no BS, no super team, no commercials about bailing on his team, no standing around watching on defense, no drama.

That’s way too great for RealGM, they need the guy that the media tells them

I have a serious question and I want you to answer honestly: what media are you talking about exactly that gives the same kinds of arguments we do for LeBron? Who are they? There have been quite a few “iT’s ThE mEdIa” arguments now but quite frankly, I’ve never seen anything worthwhile from ESPN or anything media related that makes me think “yeah, I think I’ll use that argument for LeBron”.

Funny enough, on the other hand, the very arguments I see in this thread against LeBron ARE the ones I see from the media. “LeBron choked in 2011” “all LeBron has over Jordan is longevity” “Jordan would have won more in LeBron’s place”. Quite frankly, I’m starting to get the impression that you guys are only spinning your narrative because that’s where you get your arguments from, and thus you’re assuming we do too. I can’t think of any other reason as to why you would think this is how we come to our conclusions.

[RHODEY]

Winning on deck stacked teams of his choosing is not a good thing.

Except he beat the golden state warrior who won 67 games with Kyrie Irving as the #2. He has proven he doesn't need a stack them. He also carried his teams to 8 consecutive finals and been in the finals 10 times, and every Cavs fan would tell you, those were not stacked teams. Also, he won a championship with AD as a #2. If you think that should be discredited, then Kobe only has 2 championship since he played with Shaq, who is universally known to be greater than AD. Also, Kareem and Magic have zero championship since they played together and they are both arguably top 5 players of all time, and AD wasn't.

So keep making excuses. Lebron won 4x championship and has 4x finals MVP. Nothing will change that.

Kyrie was the second best player in that series and comfortably outplayed Curry in 2016. Saying he’s a “number two” is wild. He looked like the best player on the court at times.

With the series on the line he was the best player. Same with Ray Allen. Lebron is good when he is comfortably in the lead. But not so good under pressure....actually he usually looks scared under pressure. He's not even top ten.

[Marrrcuss]

Except he beat the golden state warrior who won 67 games with Kyrie Irving as the #2. He has proven he doesn't need a stack them. He also carried his teams to 8 consecutive finals and been in the finals 10 times, and every Cavs fan would tell you, those were not stacked teams. Also, he won a championship with AD as a #2. If you think that should be discredited, then Kobe only has 2 championship since he played with Shaq, who is universally known to be greater than AD. Also, Kareem and Magic have zero championship since they played together and they are both arguably top 5 players of all time, and AD wasn't.

So keep making excuses. Lebron won 4x championship and has 4x finals MVP. Nothing will change that.

Kyrie was the second best player in that series and comfortably outplayed Curry in 2016. Saying he’s a “number two” is wild. He looked like the best player on the court at times.

With the series on the line he was the best player. Same with Ray Allen. Lebron is good when he is comfortably in the lead. But not so good under pressure....actually he usually looks scared under pressure. He's not even top ten.

The real weird part about those two bolded statements is that the heat was DOWN and lebron scored like 16 points in the fourth quarter.

Game 7 against golden State, lebron scored 11 of the 18 points in the 4th. They were down starting the 4th.

[Iwasawitness]

Except he beat the golden state warrior who won 67 games with Kyrie Irving as the #2. He has proven he doesn't need a stack them. He also carried his teams to 8 consecutive finals and been in the finals 10 times, and every Cavs fan would tell you, those were not stacked teams. Also, he won a championship with AD as a #2. If you think that should be discredited, then Kobe only has 2 championship since he played with Shaq, who is universally known to be greater than AD. Also, Kareem and Magic have zero championship since they played together and they are both arguably top 5 players of all time, and AD wasn't.

So keep making excuses. Lebron won 4x championship and has 4x finals MVP. Nothing will change that.

Kyrie was the second best player in that series and comfortably outplayed Curry in 2016. Saying he’s a “number two” is wild. He looked like the best player on the court at times.

With the series on the line he was the best player. Same with Ray Allen. Lebron is good when he is comfortably in the lead. But not so good under pressure....actually he usually looks scared under pressure. He's not even top ten.

Why do you continue to do this? What do you get out of spending your free time trolling like this? You know for a fact that LeBron is one of, if not the greatest elimination game performer in the history of the game. He has the most buzzer beaters in playoff history. Statistically, he’s a top three clutch player in NBA history. You want to know how I know that you know this? Because we’ve had this debate before and I showed you the data proving this. You literally responded to it, you acknowledged it. But you STILL troll, knowing that what you are saying is utter nonsense and goes against reality.

I mean, hell, at least with someone like odomfan, he acknowledges these things and instead comes up with incredibly stupid reasons to keep LeBron out of the top ten. Here in this thread though, you’re saying ISAIAH THOMAS is superior to LeBron. You don’t actually believe that and even his biggest fans wouldn’t believe that. Why do you keep going through all of this effort to try to convince us that you do? Just admit you’re trolling and be done with it. What are you getting out of this?

[NbaAllDay]

Kyrie was the second best player in that series and comfortably outplayed Curry in 2016. Saying he’s a “number two” is wild. He looked like the best player on the court at times.

With the series on the line he was the best player. Same with Ray Allen. Lebron is good when he is comfortably in the lead. But not so good under pressure....actually he usually looks scared under pressure. He's not even top ten.

Why do you continue to do this? What do you get out of spending your free time trolling like this? You know for a fact that LeBron is one of, if not the greatest elimination game performer in the history of the game. He has the most buzzer beaters in playoff history. Statistically, he’s a top three clutch player in NBA history. You want to know how I know that you know this? Because we’ve had this debate before and I showed you the data proving this. You literally responded to it, you acknowledged it. But you STILL troll, knowing that what you are saying is utter nonsense and goes against reality.

I mean, hell, at least with someone like odomfan, he acknowledges these things and instead comes up with incredibly stupid reasons to keep LeBron out of the top ten. Here in this thread though, you’re saying ISAIAH THOMAS is superior to LeBron. You don’t actually believe that and even his biggest fans wouldn’t believe that. Why do you keep going through all of this effort to try to convince us that you do? Just admit you’re trolling and be done with it. What are you getting out of this?

He is so uncomfortable under pressure that he only scored 16 points in the final quarter of the game Allen apparently 'saved him' to even give them a chance. I am all for people giving an argument but when faced with all the evidence to the contrary, and you are still willing to ignore it or lean into your narrative I just can't fathom a world where they are an interesting or worthwile person to talk to.

[firedavidkahn]

2

LeBron
MJ

Whatever order you want to put those in is up to you, but MJ and LeBron are in a class of their own

[SportsGuru08]

Until he was in the Western Conference, where his only such appearance came after a 4-month break where his team was the only one allowed to practice before play resumed and they didn't have to travel between games.

And Jordan was a 9-time loser right? He played 15 years and only won 6. What is the difference between losing in the playoffs and the finals?

And yeah you can make as many excuses as you want, but Lebron won a championship in 2 different conferences and 3 different teams. Nothing you say can change that. Again, 4x champion, 4x finals MVP, and 4x MVP. He was leader on every level.

It's hilarious how you think this is some slam dunk argument.

If I go to the casino just once in my life and strike jackpot, I'm more successful than a guy who goes there over and over and never wins jack s**t.

Yeah Jordan doesn't have 10 appearances. So what? He didn't need 10 appearances 'cause he's more successful in fewer attempts.

[SportsGuru08]

And Jordan was a 9-time loser right? He played 15 years and only won 6. What is the difference between losing in the playoffs and the finals?

And yeah you can make as many excuses as you want, but Lebron won a championship in 2 different conferences and 3 different teams. Nothing you say can change that. Again, 4x champion, 4x finals MVP, and 4x MVP. He was leader on every level.

Winning on deck stacked teams of his choosing is not a good thing.

Except he beat the golden state warrior who won 67 games with Kyrie Irving as the #2.He has proven he doesn't need a stack them. He also carried his teams to 8 consecutive finals and been in the finals 10 times, and every Cavs fan would tell you, those were not stacked teams. Also, he won a championship with AD as a #2. If you think that should be discredited, then Kobe only has 2 championship since he played with Shaq, who is universally known to be greater than AD. Also, Kareem and Magic have zero championship since they played together and they are both arguably top 5 players of all time, and AD wasn't.

So keep making excuses. Lebron won 4x championship and has 4x finals MVP. Nothing will change that.

You know it's funny how Bron Stans swear up and down that he only lost the 2015 Finals because of Kyrie's absence, but when it comes to winning in 2016 they do their utmost to downplay the ever loving s*hit out of him despite the fact that he comfortably outplayed the unanimous MVP as the No. 2 option.

Either Kyrie is the most important thing ever or he's not important at all. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Bron stans are some of the most disingenuous people I've ever seen

[SportsGuru08]

Except he beat the golden state warrior who won 67 games with Kyrie Irving as the #2. He has proven he doesn't need a stack them. He also carried his teams to 8 consecutive finals and been in the finals 10 times, and every Cavs fan would tell you, those were not stacked teams. Also, he won a championship with AD as a #2. If you think that should be discredited, then Kobe only has 2 championship since he played with Shaq, who is universally known to be greater than AD. Also, Kareem and Magic have zero championship since they played together and they are both arguably top 5 players of all time, and AD wasn't.

So keep making excuses. Lebron won 4x championship and has 4x finals MVP. Nothing will change that.

Stop it Kyrie beat the Warriors for him. Ray Allen saved him for another against the Spurs . His other rings he needed to team with a guy who already had a ring on his own - Wade and another multiple Allstar Chris Bosh. His rings are like Kd's 2... he needed to ring chase. So that automatically knocks him down to below 10. ESPN is comparing him to Jordan and skipping atleast 9 other players because its all for corporate branding. Lebron in GOAT discussion is way over hyped and manufactured.

Stop it. So Jordan only has 4 rings right? Paxson saved him in the Suns series and Kerr saved him in the Utah series. Kyrie wouldn't even be in the Finals without riding Lebron's coattails. Stop it. Also, Lebron won Finals MVP. Don't forget that. You can cry about manufactured hype or corporate branding all you want. You can't deny this though:

4x champion, 4x Finals MVP, 4x MVP, 20 time all-star, 1st in points, 4th in assists.

Last time I checked, the Bulls weren't on the verge of losing the series outright in either of those situations.

False equivalencies are another favorite tactic of Bron stans in addition to double talk.

[HMFFL]

Duncan had a greater career than LeBron

Tim Duncan won two MVP's but imagine if it ass actually a goal of his to win as many as possible.

Tim Duncan has a 21-15 winning record over LeBron James, including an 11-5 record in Playoffs.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

Was this winning record a 1 on 1 match? I jest but I kind of don't.

Versus match ups are team based. Yes a player has a various level of impact on a head to head but lets look deeper.

8 of those 11 wins were 2 sweeps when.

1. Duncan had the vastly superior team in 2007.
2. In 2014 when Lebron was still clearly the better player.

So it's also disingenuous to suggest there playoff w/l is anything other than how good their teams were at relative times.

Ah, interesting.
Defending Lebron with your life.

I praised Lebron earlier in the thread and gave him respect. Tim Duncan's record h2h against Lebron is relevant. He stayed a Spur his entire career and you have absolutely nothing to say that changes those facts.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[Marrrcuss]

Winning on deck stacked teams of his choosing is not a good thing.

Except he beat the golden state warrior who won 67 games with Kyrie Irving as the #2.He has proven he doesn't need a stack them. He also carried his teams to 8 consecutive finals and been in the finals 10 times, and every Cavs fan would tell you, those were not stacked teams. Also, he won a championship with AD as a #2. If you think that should be discredited, then Kobe only has 2 championship since he played with Shaq, who is universally known to be greater than AD. Also, Kareem and Magic have zero championship since they played together and they are both arguably top 5 players of all time, and AD wasn't.

So keep making excuses. Lebron won 4x championship and has 4x finals MVP. Nothing will change that.

You know it's funny how Bron Stans swear up and down that he only lost the 2015 Finals because of Kyrie's absence, but when it comes to winning in 2016 they do their utmost to downplay the ever loving s*hit out of him despite the fact that he comfortably outplayed the unanimous MVP as the No. 2 option.

Either Kyrie is the most important thing ever or he's not important at all. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Bron stans are some of the most disingenuous people I've ever seen

You forgot Kevin Love, lol

Kyrie saw he had a mismatch with the most one dimensional player that you all force into the top 20 all time and hit the biggest shot in history. I never down play that.

[RHODEY]

Winning on deck stacked teams of his choosing is not a good thing.

Except he beat the golden state warrior who won 67 games with Kyrie Irving as the #2.He has proven he doesn't need a stack them. He also carried his teams to 8 consecutive finals and been in the finals 10 times, and every Cavs fan would tell you, those were not stacked teams. Also, he won a championship with AD as a #2. If you think that should be discredited, then Kobe only has 2 championship since he played with Shaq, who is universally known to be greater than AD. Also, Kareem and Magic have zero championship since they played together and they are both arguably top 5 players of all time, and AD wasn't.

So keep making excuses. Lebron won 4x championship and has 4x finals MVP. Nothing will change that.

You know it's funny how Bron Stans swear up and down that he only lost the 2015 Finals because of Kyrie's absence, but when it comes to winning in 2016 they do their utmost to downplay the ever loving s*hit out of him despite the fact that he comfortably outplayed the unanimous MVP as the No. 2 option.

Either Kyrie is the most important thing ever or he's not important at all. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Bron stans are some of the most disingenuous people I've ever seen

Exactly.

[RHODEY]

With the series on the line he was the best player. Same with Ray Allen. Lebron is good when he is comfortably in the lead. But not so good under pressure....actually he usually looks scared under pressure. He's not even top ten.

Why do you continue to do this? What do you get out of spending your free time trolling like this? You know for a fact that LeBron is one of, if not the greatest elimination game performer in the history of the game. He has the most buzzer beaters in playoff history. Statistically, he’s a top three clutch player in NBA history. You want to know how I know that you know this? Because we’ve had this debate before and I showed you the data proving this. You literally responded to it, you acknowledged it. But you STILL troll, knowing that what you are saying is utter nonsense and goes against reality.

I mean, hell, at least with someone like odomfan, he acknowledges these things and instead comes up with incredibly stupid reasons to keep LeBron out of the top ten. Here in this thread though, you’re saying ISAIAH THOMAS is superior to LeBron. You don’t actually believe that and even his biggest fans wouldn’t believe that. Why do you keep going through all of this effort to try to convince us that you do? Just admit you’re trolling and be done with it. What are you getting out of this?

He is so uncomfortable under pressure that he only scored 16 points in the final quarter of the game Allen apparently 'saved him' to even give them a chance. I am all for people giving an argument but when faced with all the evidence to the contrary, and you are still willing to ignore it or lean into your narrative I just can't fathom a world where they are an interesting or worthwile person to talk to.

There is no "apparently" about it.

[NbaAllDay]

Tim Duncan won two MVP's but imagine if it ass actually a goal of his to win as many as possible.

Tim Duncan has a 21-15 winning record over LeBron James, including an 11-5 record in Playoffs.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

Was this winning record a 1 on 1 match? I jest but I kind of don't.

Versus match ups are team based. Yes a player has a various level of impact on a head to head but lets look deeper.

8 of those 11 wins were 2 sweeps when.

1. Duncan had the vastly superior team in 2007.
2. In 2014 when Lebron was still clearly the better player.

So it's also disingenuous to suggest there playoff w/l is anything other than how good their teams were at relative times.

Ah, interesting.
Defending Lebron with your life.

I praised Lebron earlier in the thread and gave him respect. Tim Duncan's record h2h against Lebron is relevant. He stayed a Spur his entire career and you have absolutely nothing to say that changes those facts.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

I'm just simply calling out nonsense with context. Something you are omitting for obvious reasons.

I'd happily do it the other way. But you can paint it as 'defending Lebron' as a form of dismissing my points if you like.

Bird is better than MJ because he is 11-5 by your logic. Or would you like to actually use context on that statement?

[Iwasawitness]

Stop it Kyrie beat the Warriors for him. Ray Allen saved him for another against the Spurs . His other rings he needed to team with a guy who already had a ring on his own - Wade and another multiple Allstar Chris Bosh. His rings are like Kd's 2... he needed to ring chase. So that automatically knocks him down to below 10. ESPN is comparing him to Jordan and skipping atleast 9 other players because its all for corporate branding. Lebron in GOAT discussion is way over hyped and manufactured.

Stop it. So Jordan only has 4 rings right? Paxson saved him in the Suns series and Kerr saved him in the Utah series. Kyrie wouldn't even be in the Finals without riding Lebron's coattails. Stop it. Also, Lebron won Finals MVP. Don't forget that. You can cry about manufactured hype or corporate branding all you want. You can't deny this though:

4x champion, 4x Finals MVP, 4x MVP, 20 time all-star, 1st in points, 4th in assists.

Last time I checked, the Bulls weren't on the verge of losing the series outright in either of those situations.

False equivalencies are another favorite tactic of Bron stans in addition to double talk.

You literally just did the exact same thing when you compared LeBron to someone who went to casinos over and over and didn’t win jack ****, despite being a four time champion. Surely you know what the concept of winning is, right? Or are you pretending to live in a different world like your other buddies in this thread?