Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy

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Who you got?

Tyus Jones
33
28%
Bob Cousy
83
72%
 
Total votes: 116

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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#41 » by FarBeyondDriven » Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:47 am

tsherkin wrote:Bob Cousy wasn't a good scorer in his own time; I struggle to imagine him being a better one today. He was bad at finishing shots by the standards of his own era, let alone this one. He did not age well into the 60s, not even as well as some of his peers. He was relatively small.

The game was different in his time, so there's something to be said about emphasis placed and all that stuff. He did some stuff in the 50s that we didn't see a lot until other electric players like Magic and what-not; dude definitely knew how to leverage the no-look and the behind-the-back pass, for example. He did the wrap-around-while-dribbling-into-a-pass thing, too, and he could bomb one hell of an outlet pass. He had a handle that would scale well if he were allowed to dribble like guys even from the 70s, let alone now, I suspect. So with that said, he'd probably find a way to be an impact player on offense with some contemporary training.

His playmaking was generally where his value was seen, so now we're talking more about the offensive equivalent of a Ricky Rubio or Rajon Rondo, presuming that he adapted well. Cousy is a guy who I think was very important to basketball, but ported forward? I think he would struggle a lot in today's game as a scoring threat. Not so much in other aspects, though. Teams today definitely wouldn't want to use him in the same volume-scoring role as Boston did in the 50s. Not without major changes in his scoring toolset, anyway.

He played a lot more in the post and using that lefty hook than would make sense in today's game... and he had the league's premiere shot blocker on his own squad; he'd struggle more in a league where that was the norm, finishing inside. But they also teach shooting differently in today's game, as well as differences in how to use screens. Given his competent (if unremarkable) FT shooting, it's hard not to envision him as a 34%+ 3pt shooter with appropriate training time if he'd been born in the modern era. It's tough to project, because his scoring game was so archaic by today's standards and the game so different. He didn't have a modern scoring game at all.

But his vision was pretty excellent and his technical passing game stands up today just fine, so that's a nice foundation.

Tyus Jones isn't good. But he's a decent enough perimeter shooter and he's actually pretty solid from 3, and has been markedly better from the corners these past couple of seasons. So I don't know. If Cousy could be a league-average scorer, then of course his playmaking would elevate him easily over someone like Jones in terms of overall value, that's for sure.


you typed all that, with such certainty, yet are dead wrong. He was quite literally one of the best scorers in the league until the Celtics added Hall of Famers Heinsohn and Russell in 1956, he aged, and a bunch of great and younger players came into the league like Wilt, Pettit, West, Oscar and Bellamy. Basically a top 10 scorer for a decade. Not bad for "wasn't a good scorer in his time" :lol:

Cousy points scored per season

9th (rookie)
3rd
3rd
2nd
3rd
7th
8th
16th
9th
12th
17th
27th
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#42 » by One_and_Done » Sun Mar 24, 2024 3:46 am

You get being a good scorer isn't just about ppg right?
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#43 » by 70sFan » Sun Mar 24, 2024 7:42 am

celtxman wrote:When I see these posts put up for the sole purpose of disrespecting players of a different era, I think of Nikola Jokic. If he played exactly the way he does now, only did it in the 50's, he'd be laughed at. You'd be seeing it in black and white and the same people who make these posts would disrespect him.
What is the purpose of this type of post? Can the OPS eliminate them?

I'm 100% certain these guys would say Jokic playing in the 1960s would be too unathletic and these weak ass hook shots and floaters wouldn't work against athletic freaks we have today.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#44 » by 70sFan » Sun Mar 24, 2024 7:43 am

One_and_Done wrote:It's incredibly easy to adjust to old timer ball, you just play down to that level. Players adjust to much more dramatic shifts in play styles all the time today, e.g the changes to foul drawing rules, or the touch changes in 05. Cousy can't just play up a level though.

If you think that 2005 change is more drastic than going from 2024 officiating to 1960 officiating, then you either have no idea what you are talking about, or you are simply stupid.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#45 » by One_and_Done » Sun Mar 24, 2024 8:45 am

70sFan wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:It's incredibly easy to adjust to old timer ball, you just play down to that level. Players adjust to much more dramatic shifts in play styles all the time today, e.g the changes to foul drawing rules, or the touch changes in 05. Cousy can't just play up a level though.

If you think that 2005 change is more drastic than going from 2024 officiating to 1960 officiating, then you either have no idea what you are talking about, or you are simply stupid.

Or I've watched a skills challenge before, or modern pro players messing around in scrimmages. You are grossly underrating modern players if you think they can play down to 3rd grade levels as needed.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#46 » by 70sFan » Sun Mar 24, 2024 9:06 am

One_and_Done wrote:
70sFan wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:It's incredibly easy to adjust to old timer ball, you just play down to that level. Players adjust to much more dramatic shifts in play styles all the time today, e.g the changes to foul drawing rules, or the touch changes in 05. Cousy can't just play up a level though.

If you think that 2005 change is more drastic than going from 2024 officiating to 1960 officiating, then you either have no idea what you are talking about, or you are simply stupid.

Or I've watched a skills challenge before, or modern pro players messing around in scrimmages. You are grossly underrating modern players if you think they can play down to 3rd grade levels as needed.

That has nothing to do with my post, so why do you quote me?
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#47 » by MrGoat » Sun Mar 24, 2024 9:26 am

FarBeyondDriven wrote:
tsherkin wrote:Bob Cousy wasn't a good scorer in his own time; I struggle to imagine him being a better one today. He was bad at finishing shots by the standards of his own era, let alone this one. He did not age well into the 60s, not even as well as some of his peers. He was relatively small.

The game was different in his time, so there's something to be said about emphasis placed and all that stuff. He did some stuff in the 50s that we didn't see a lot until other electric players like Magic and what-not; dude definitely knew how to leverage the no-look and the behind-the-back pass, for example. He did the wrap-around-while-dribbling-into-a-pass thing, too, and he could bomb one hell of an outlet pass. He had a handle that would scale well if he were allowed to dribble like guys even from the 70s, let alone now, I suspect. So with that said, he'd probably find a way to be an impact player on offense with some contemporary training.

His playmaking was generally where his value was seen, so now we're talking more about the offensive equivalent of a Ricky Rubio or Rajon Rondo, presuming that he adapted well. Cousy is a guy who I think was very important to basketball, but ported forward? I think he would struggle a lot in today's game as a scoring threat. Not so much in other aspects, though. Teams today definitely wouldn't want to use him in the same volume-scoring role as Boston did in the 50s. Not without major changes in his scoring toolset, anyway.

He played a lot more in the post and using that lefty hook than would make sense in today's game... and he had the league's premiere shot blocker on his own squad; he'd struggle more in a league where that was the norm, finishing inside. But they also teach shooting differently in today's game, as well as differences in how to use screens. Given his competent (if unremarkable) FT shooting, it's hard not to envision him as a 34%+ 3pt shooter with appropriate training time if he'd been born in the modern era. It's tough to project, because his scoring game was so archaic by today's standards and the game so different. He didn't have a modern scoring game at all.

But his vision was pretty excellent and his technical passing game stands up today just fine, so that's a nice foundation.

Tyus Jones isn't good. But he's a decent enough perimeter shooter and he's actually pretty solid from 3, and has been markedly better from the corners these past couple of seasons. So I don't know. If Cousy could be a league-average scorer, then of course his playmaking would elevate him easily over someone like Jones in terms of overall value, that's for sure.


you typed all that, with such certainty, yet are dead wrong. He was quite literally one of the best scorers in the league until the Celtics added Hall of Famers Heinsohn and Russell in 1956, he aged, and a bunch of great and younger players came into the league like Wilt, Pettit, West, Oscar and Bellamy. Basically a top 10 scorer for a decade. Not bad for "wasn't a good scorer in his time" :lol:

Cousy points scored per season

9th (rookie)
3rd
3rd
2nd
3rd
7th
8th
16th
9th
12th
17th
27th


I think a lot of people are getting hung up on his shooting percentages without realizing the context of the time. In the 50s there was no such thing as a defensive 3 second violation or a three point shot and you actually had to dribble properly so bigs would just camp in the paint on defense which made it especially difficult for guards to score. A career shooting percentage of 37.5% for a 6' 1" high usage guard who mostly played in the 50s was actually an impressive number. The league average FG% was under 40% until 1960. Wilt became the first player in NBA history to shoot over 50% from the floor in 1961. Stick him in today's league with much looser dribbling rules, way better spacing and offensive sets and he would have an easier time finding points than you would think, although his passing would still be the star point of his game, he led the league in assists 8 times after all in the era where it was hardest to get assists
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#48 » by remiga007 » Sun Mar 24, 2024 9:48 am

70sFan wrote:
celtxman wrote:When I see these posts put up for the sole purpose of disrespecting players of a different era, I think of Nikola Jokic. If he played exactly the way he does now, only did it in the 50's, he'd be laughed at. You'd be seeing it in black and white and the same people who make these posts would disrespect him.
What is the purpose of this type of post? Can the OPS eliminate them?

I'm 100% certain these guys would say Jokic playing in the 1960s would be too unathletic and these weak ass hook shots and floaters wouldn't work against athletic freaks we have today.

Not to mention additional narrative would be 60's Jokic would be absolutely run off the floor in 2024 because of his slow feet in defence.
They even do it with Shaq lol.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#49 » by remiga007 » Sun Mar 24, 2024 10:00 am

Sorry for double post but just watched some Cousy highlights, and the man was doing some really impressive stuff passing wise that Tyus could only dream of. In the 50s.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#50 » by tsherkin » Sun Mar 24, 2024 10:04 am

FarBeyondDriven wrote:you typed all that, with such certainty, yet are dead wrong. He was quite literally one of the best scorers in the league until the Celtics added Hall of Famers Heinsohn and Russell in 1956,


But definitively, that was not true. Volume alone doesn't dictate quality, man. It's 2024; this isn't a new lesson. And no, he didn't age well; his efficiency tanked in the 60s.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#51 » by One_and_Done » Sun Mar 24, 2024 11:45 am

MrGoat wrote:
FarBeyondDriven wrote:
tsherkin wrote:Bob Cousy wasn't a good scorer in his own time; I struggle to imagine him being a better one today. He was bad at finishing shots by the standards of his own era, let alone this one. He did not age well into the 60s, not even as well as some of his peers. He was relatively small.

The game was different in his time, so there's something to be said about emphasis placed and all that stuff. He did some stuff in the 50s that we didn't see a lot until other electric players like Magic and what-not; dude definitely knew how to leverage the no-look and the behind-the-back pass, for example. He did the wrap-around-while-dribbling-into-a-pass thing, too, and he could bomb one hell of an outlet pass. He had a handle that would scale well if he were allowed to dribble like guys even from the 70s, let alone now, I suspect. So with that said, he'd probably find a way to be an impact player on offense with some contemporary training.

His playmaking was generally where his value was seen, so now we're talking more about the offensive equivalent of a Ricky Rubio or Rajon Rondo, presuming that he adapted well. Cousy is a guy who I think was very important to basketball, but ported forward? I think he would struggle a lot in today's game as a scoring threat. Not so much in other aspects, though. Teams today definitely wouldn't want to use him in the same volume-scoring role as Boston did in the 50s. Not without major changes in his scoring toolset, anyway.

He played a lot more in the post and using that lefty hook than would make sense in today's game... and he had the league's premiere shot blocker on his own squad; he'd struggle more in a league where that was the norm, finishing inside. But they also teach shooting differently in today's game, as well as differences in how to use screens. Given his competent (if unremarkable) FT shooting, it's hard not to envision him as a 34%+ 3pt shooter with appropriate training time if he'd been born in the modern era. It's tough to project, because his scoring game was so archaic by today's standards and the game so different. He didn't have a modern scoring game at all.

But his vision was pretty excellent and his technical passing game stands up today just fine, so that's a nice foundation.

Tyus Jones isn't good. But he's a decent enough perimeter shooter and he's actually pretty solid from 3, and has been markedly better from the corners these past couple of seasons. So I don't know. If Cousy could be a league-average scorer, then of course his playmaking would elevate him easily over someone like Jones in terms of overall value, that's for sure.


you typed all that, with such certainty, yet are dead wrong. He was quite literally one of the best scorers in the league until the Celtics added Hall of Famers Heinsohn and Russell in 1956, he aged, and a bunch of great and younger players came into the league like Wilt, Pettit, West, Oscar and Bellamy. Basically a top 10 scorer for a decade. Not bad for "wasn't a good scorer in his time" :lol:

Cousy points scored per season

9th (rookie)
3rd
3rd
2nd
3rd
7th
8th
16th
9th
12th
17th
27th


I think a lot of people are getting hung up on his shooting percentages without realizing the context of the time. In the 50s there was no such thing as a defensive 3 second violation or a three point shot and you actually had to dribble properly so bigs would just camp in the paint on defense which made it especially difficult for guards to score. A career shooting percentage of 37.5% for a 6' 1" high usage guard who mostly played in the 50s was actually an impressive number. The league average FG% was under 40% until 1960. Wilt became the first player in NBA history to shoot over 50% from the floor in 1961. Stick him in today's league with much looser dribbling rules, way better spacing and offensive sets and he would have an easier time finding points than you would think, although his passing would still be the star point of his game, he led the league in assists 8 times after all in the era where it was hardest to get assists

The "context" being "everyone sucked back then, including at shooting". Why should we reward you for playing in a sucky league? If someone who was 5% above average at shooting was ported into today's game, they wouldn't be 5% better than today's shooters. They'd be just terrible at shooting (and everything else in most cases).

Cousy would fit in perfectly on the G-League Ignite as a back-up janitor during the offseason. I don't see much use for him dribbling on a basketball court today other than with a mop.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#52 » by cupcakesnake » Sun Mar 24, 2024 1:06 pm

One_and_Done wrote:
MrGoat wrote:
FarBeyondDriven wrote:
you typed all that, with such certainty, yet are dead wrong. He was quite literally one of the best scorers in the league until the Celtics added Hall of Famers Heinsohn and Russell in 1956, he aged, and a bunch of great and younger players came into the league like Wilt, Pettit, West, Oscar and Bellamy. Basically a top 10 scorer for a decade. Not bad for "wasn't a good scorer in his time" :lol:

Cousy points scored per season

9th (rookie)
3rd
3rd
2nd
3rd
7th
8th
16th
9th
12th
17th
27th


I think a lot of people are getting hung up on his shooting percentages without realizing the context of the time. In the 50s there was no such thing as a defensive 3 second violation or a three point shot and you actually had to dribble properly so bigs would just camp in the paint on defense which made it especially difficult for guards to score. A career shooting percentage of 37.5% for a 6' 1" high usage guard who mostly played in the 50s was actually an impressive number. The league average FG% was under 40% until 1960. Wilt became the first player in NBA history to shoot over 50% from the floor in 1961. Stick him in today's league with much looser dribbling rules, way better spacing and offensive sets and he would have an easier time finding points than you would think, although his passing would still be the star point of his game, he led the league in assists 8 times after all in the era where it was hardest to get assists

The "context" being "everyone sucked back then, including at shooting". Why should we reward you for playing in a sucky league? If someone who was 5% above average at shooting was ported into today's game, they wouldn't be 5% better than today's shooters. They'd be just terrible at shooting (and everything else in most cases).

Cousy would fit in perfectly on the G-League Ignite as a back-up janitor during the offseason. I don't see much use for him dribbling on a basketball court today other than with a mop.


There's absolutely nothing special about having a modern skill set in the year 2024. Most of the people posting on this board probably have a modern skill set. I don't think we deserve to be celebrated for doing the same thing everyone else in our era is capable of doing.

You keep doing this thing where you just say everyone sucked, when you're responding to people explaining/acknowledging the limits imposed on players in bygone eras. Nobody sucks for not having a running jump shot when the move was just barely being invented. Nobody sucks for not using modern dribbling moves when the rules prevented people from even inventing modern dribbling rules. Nobody sucks for looking less quick when they played in canvas sneakers.

Cousy showed rare dexterity (ambidextrous hook shots, threw passes no one in the league even attempted back then, low to the ground dribble that gave him dominant ball control for the time), and it's not hard to see why he was a special talent in the 50s. It's really hard to imagine him as an NBA player today. He's pretty small and doesn't have a skillset that is easy to imagine translating

But I care about this as much as I care about a modern soldier being better than Achilles by virtue of having a gun. Or Magnus Carlsen being better at chess than Boris Spassky because they've invented 100 new chess moves since Boris era.

People don't rank Bob Cousy high because they think he'd beat Tyus Jones 1-on-1 in a time machine. People rank him highly for how he impacted basketball in his own era. This is how most historical analysis works, you assess things based on understanding the context of the era. It's our fault we want to do rankings projects and pretend like it's a science.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#53 » by Curmudgeon » Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:15 pm

It's all about the rules. If Cousy had been allowed to palm the ball he would have averaged 20 assists per game.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#54 » by Xatticus » Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:43 pm

Who you got?

1) LeBron James

2) random bench scrub on the 2090/91 Knicks
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#55 » by xdrta+ » Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:49 pm

Xatticus wrote:Who you got?

1) LeBron James

2) random bench scrub on the 2090/91 Knicks


According to the logic of the OP, obviously #2.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#56 » by Chokic » Sun Mar 24, 2024 3:09 pm

Tyus Jones. Tyus jones is actually pretty skilled a former #1 rated pg in his highschool class and would look like a legend if he was able to transport his current skill to that time. Ppl can't comprehend how skilled your average player today. Mainly due to overall evolution of the game and partly due to living in the information age where players have way more access to skill development thru camps personal skills trainers and online tutorials.
It's harder to standout amongst peers today bc the skill gap has closed substantially in the past two decades between a star player and average player. Hence why the international games between america a powerhouse in basketball and other foreign teams are much much more competitive than ever before and why you see way more upsets between small mid majors and blue blood programs. Bob cousy is obviously alot better if we're comparing who's better for their own era.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#57 » by Chuck Everett » Sun Mar 24, 2024 3:23 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:It's all about the rules. If Cousy had been allowed to palm the ball he would have averaged 20 assists per game.


Just wait until the Olympics. Once we get back to regular rules and most of these guys don't look otherworldly because defense is allowed, they will make excuses for it and blame continuity.

The NBA rules keep getting more and more bastardized to make these guys look better than they are. Just look at a few games where the Knicks are allowed to play physical. All of a sudden everyone looks pedestrian again. Go figure.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#58 » by One_and_Done » Sun Mar 24, 2024 7:36 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:
People don't rank Bob Cousy high because they think he'd beat Tyus Jones 1-on-1 in a time machine. People rank him highly for how he impacted basketball in his own era. This is how most historical analysis works, you assess things based on understanding the context of the era. It's our fault we want to do rankings projects and pretend like it's a science.

Well that's literally the opposite of what the OP asks.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#59 » by cupcakesnake » Sun Mar 24, 2024 7:51 pm

One_and_Done wrote:
cupcakesnake wrote:
People don't rank Bob Cousy high because they think he'd beat Tyus Jones 1-on-1 in a time machine. People rank him highly for how he impacted basketball in his own era. This is how most historical analysis works, you assess things based on understanding the context of the era. It's our fault we want to do rankings projects and pretend like it's a science.

Well that's literally the opposite of what the OP asks.


Clearly. As the rest of my post(s) explain, I'm wondering about the agenda of your topic. Because it's something you're very loud about here.
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Re: Tyus Jones vs Bob Cousy 

Post#60 » by Rishkar » Sun Mar 24, 2024 8:20 pm

Bob Cousy was Jason Williams. I think I'd take Williams over Jones

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