Is this the greatest western conference ever?

[AleksandarN]

Again; which ones?

See I knew you were trolling. You can’t or won’t name the teams.

I'm just unclear on what you're asking me to do here. Name what?

The dominate pick and roll teams you said would expose Jokic.

[One_and_Done]

See I knew you were trolling. You can’t or won’t name the teams.

I'm just unclear on what you're asking me to do here. Name what?

The dominate pick and roll teams you said would expose Jokic.

Harden's old Rocket teams are a good example. The 21 Suns are another. The younger Curry Warriors too. How many more of these do you want?

[Cavsfansince84]

The 2003-04 Western Conference had the highest win % against the Eastern conference out of any Western conference ever

Wow, the East was terrible that season. 2 playoff teams with losing records, 2 .500 playoff teams, and the 4 seed was only 1 game above .500

Isn't something like that bound to be the case if the other conf has the highest winning % in nba history against it? It's basic math that the teams in the worst conf will have poor records.

[Bornstellar]

I'm not sure if OP is asking about specific individual seasons or just in general but the West in the 2000-2010 era was a gauntlet and as others have pointed out, you had 50 win teams as the 8th seed and 48 win teams missing the playoffs. Then you had a number of epic rivalries between teams like Spurs/Lakers, Spurs/Suns, Mavs/Suns, Spurs/Mavs, Suns/Lakers, etc. The West is tough again this year but the best it's ever been, no way

[jkvonny]

I'm not sure if OP is asking about specific individual seasons or just in general but the West in the 2000-2010 era was a gauntlet and as others have pointed out, you had 50 win teams as the 8th seed and 48 win teams missing the playoffs. Then you had a number of epic rivalries between teams like Spurs/Lakers, Spurs/Suns, Mavs/Suns, Spurs/Mavs, Suns/Lakers, Kings/Lakers, Kings/Mavs, etc. The West is tough again this year but the best it's ever been, no way

True.

[AleksandarN]

I'm just unclear on what you're asking me to do here. Name what?

The dominate pick and roll teams you said would expose Jokic.

Harden's old Rocket teams are a good example. The 21 Suns are another. The younger Curry Warriors too. How many more of these do you want?

What teams last year did they avoid? 2018 Rockets? Come on you are reaching. The younger Curry warriors? So you want to go back in time now to try and find teams to expose Jokic ok lol. What teams now that would expose Jokic? I like how you try and change the goal posts. 21 Suns? What was Jokic's backcourt during that series.

[One_and_Done]

The dominate pick and roll teams you said would expose Jokic.

Harden's old Rocket teams are a good example. The 21 Suns are another. The younger Curry Warriors too. How many more of these do you want?

What teams last year did they avoid? 2018 Rockets? Come on you are reaching. The younger Curry warriors? So you want to go back in time now to try and find teams to expose Jokic ok lol. What teams now that would expose Jokic? I like how you try and change the goal posts. 21 Suns? What was Jokic's backcourt during that series.

Last year the good high PnR teams they didn't have to play, which I named already, were teams like Boston, Memphis, GSW, the Kings. I am not saying the Kings beat the Nuggets necessarily, but they are a tough match up due to playing to Jokic's weaknesses. The Suns last year didn't play alot of PnR between KDs age and Booker getting hurt. I've long said a healthy Suns team last year probably beats the Nuggets. Wolves can play alot of high PnR with Ant, but Gobert ruins it somewhat because they can't go 5 out with him. Jayden was also hurt last year.

This year there is a good array of high PnR teams, so hopefully Jokic has to play some and we get a better idea of how he holds up in the playoffs against more PnR heavy teams; Boston, Bucks when they go small, GSW, Mavs, Suns when healthy, Kings, OKC. These are all teams designed to stress test Jokic on D. Even the Clippers got Harden, so might be able to finally overcome their generally poor match up with Jokic. If you want the teams that match up poorly with Jokic, ir's teams like the Lakers, Heat, Pelicans, etc.

[AleksandarN]

Harden's old Rocket teams are a good example. The 21 Suns are another. The younger Curry Warriors too. How many more of these do you want?

What teams last year did they avoid? 2018 Rockets? Come on you are reaching. The younger Curry warriors? So you want to go back in time now to try and find teams to expose Jokic ok lol. What teams now that would expose Jokic? I like how you try and change the goal posts. 21 Suns? What was Jokic's backcourt during that series.

Last year the good high PnR teams they didn't have to play, which I named already, were teams like Boston, Memphis, GSW, the Kings. I am not saying the Kings beat the Nuggets necessarily, but they are a tough match up due to playing to Jokic's weaknesses. The Suns last year didn't play alot of PnR between KDs age and Booker getting hurt. I've long said a healthy Suns team last year probably beats the Nuggets. Wolves can play alot of high PnR with Ant, but Gobert ruins it somewhat because they can't go 5 out with him. Jayden was also hurt last year.

This year there is a good array of high PnR teams, so hopefully Jokic has to play some and we get a better idea of how he holds up in the playoffs against more PnR heavy teams; Boston, Bucks when they go small, GSW, Mavs, Suns when healthy, Kings, OKC. These are all teams designed to stress test Jokic on D. Even the Clippers got Harden, so might be able to finally overcome their generally poor match up with Jokic. If you want the teams that match up poorly with Jokic, ir's teams like the Lakers, Heat, Pelicans, etc.

GSW? the last 9 games the Nuggets won 8 games. 8 games to 1 really the warriors? A healthy Suns team last year would have won how so? Bringing up Ayton injury is laughable. Jokic owned him that series. Booker played in every game that series. Also so did Jokic who had a sprained wrist. Clippers really how so? Boston they beat them twice Jokic was not exposed. OKC they are 2 and 1 against Nuggets again Jokic was not exposed. Mavs same thing Jokic was not exposed. Bucks Jokic was not exposed.

[Drakeem]

This is definitely a chance for Jokic to prove last year wasn't a one off. The competition is much stronger in theory, but let's see who is healthy come playoffs. If Jokic somehow dodges all the pick and roll heavy teams again though I'm going to be annoyed.

What PnR-heavy team do you have in mind?

Jokic has been tearing up the league last 5 years, that's such a silly comment.

And who does he lose to historically?

2022; Warriors (high PnR team)
2021; Suns (high PnR team)
2020; Lakers (were still a pretty heavy high PnR team back then when Lebron had the legs for it)
2019; Blazers (high PnR team)

The Nuggets tanked regular season games in the past just to avoid Harden, so terrified were they of him destroying Jokic in the PnR. Then last year he plays some pretty flawed teams who are more midrange focused, or who can't go 5 out or run much high PnR. He dodges Boston, GSW, Memphis, the Kings, etc.

I sm not saying Jokic's title is undeserved, or that he and the team haven't improved since their past failures, but Jokic has a weakness. Now he's so good on O, and has such a well matched support cast, that being a high PnR team isn't enough. It takes a really good team to beat him too. The Kings have too many weaknesses for it to matter for eg. But the old Harden Rockets or CP3 Suns? They'd toast him.

Jokic best match up is against the LAC, 76ers, Heat, Pelicans, etc. Teams who have a classic 5 man and/or can't do enough in high PnR (we'll see if an older Harden changes that for the LAC). This year the Clippers have Harden, the Suns will likely be healthy and deep enough to play alot if high PnR, OKC & Boston can go 5 out, and even teams like the Mavs and aged GSW have a punchers chance. Will Jokic have to play those match ups tho? We'll see.

So you're going to include two teams he lost to because of injuries on his team, and then 2019 and 2020 which were 4-5 years ago? I'm not saying it's not a weakness but this isn't the way to prove it.

[One_and_Done]

What PnR-heavy team do you have in mind?

Jokic has been tearing up the league last 5 years, that's such a silly comment.

And who does he lose to historically?

2022; Warriors (high PnR team)
2021; Suns (high PnR team)
2020; Lakers (were still a pretty heavy high PnR team back then when Lebron had the legs for it)
2019; Blazers (high PnR team)

The Nuggets tanked regular season games in the past just to avoid Harden, so terrified were they of him destroying Jokic in the PnR. Then last year he plays some pretty flawed teams who are more midrange focused, or who can't go 5 out or run much high PnR. He dodges Boston, GSW, Memphis, the Kings, etc.

I sm not saying Jokic's title is undeserved, or that he and the team haven't improved since their past failures, but Jokic has a weakness. Now he's so good on O, and has such a well matched support cast, that being a high PnR team isn't enough. It takes a really good team to beat him too. The Kings have too many weaknesses for it to matter for eg. But the old Harden Rockets or CP3 Suns? They'd toast him.

Jokic best match up is against the LAC, 76ers, Heat, Pelicans, etc. Teams who have a classic 5 man and/or can't do enough in high PnR (we'll see if an older Harden changes that for the LAC). This year the Clippers have Harden, the Suns will likely be healthy and deep enough to play alot if high PnR, OKC & Boston can go 5 out, and even teams like the Mavs and aged GSW have a punchers chance. Will Jokic have to play those match ups tho? We'll see.

So you're going to include two teams he lost to because of injuries on his team, and then 2019 and 2020 which were 4-5 years ago? I'm not saying it's not a weakness but this isn't the way to prove it.

To hear posters like the one above you injuries only count for the Nuggets.

Jokic having a weakness doesn't mean teams who play to that weakness are able to overcome it. Hopefully this playoffs we get more info.

[Ambrose]

What PnR-heavy team do you have in mind?

Jokic has been tearing up the league last 5 years, that's such a silly comment.

And who does he lose to historically?

2022; Warriors (high PnR team)
2021; Suns (high PnR team)
2020; Lakers (were still a pretty heavy high PnR team back then when Lebron had the legs for it)
2019; Blazers (high PnR team)

The Nuggets tanked regular season games in the past just to avoid Harden, so terrified were they of him destroying Jokic in the PnR. Then last year he plays some pretty flawed teams who are more midrange focused, or who can't go 5 out or run much high PnR. He dodges Boston, GSW, Memphis, the Kings, etc.

I sm not saying Jokic's title is undeserved, or that he and the team haven't improved since their past failures, but Jokic has a weakness. Now he's so good on O, and has such a well matched support cast, that being a high PnR team isn't enough. It takes a really good team to beat him too. The Kings have too many weaknesses for it to matter for eg. But the old Harden Rockets or CP3 Suns? They'd toast him.

Jokic best match up is against the LAC, 76ers, Heat, Pelicans, etc. Teams who have a classic 5 man and/or can't do enough in high PnR (we'll see if an older Harden changes that for the LAC). This year the Clippers have Harden, the Suns will likely be healthy and deep enough to play alot if high PnR, OKC & Boston can go 5 out, and even teams like the Mavs and aged GSW have a punchers chance. Will Jokic have to play those match ups tho? We'll see.

So you're going to include two teams he lost to because of injuries on his team, and then 2019 and 2020 which were 4-5 years ago? I'm not saying it's not a weakness but this isn't the way to prove it.

He doesn't have a point. No one has claimed Jokic doesn't have any weaknesses.

[AleksandarN]

And who does he lose to historically?

2022; Warriors (high PnR team)
2021; Suns (high PnR team)
2020; Lakers (were still a pretty heavy high PnR team back then when Lebron had the legs for it)
2019; Blazers (high PnR team)

The Nuggets tanked regular season games in the past just to avoid Harden, so terrified were they of him destroying Jokic in the PnR. Then last year he plays some pretty flawed teams who are more midrange focused, or who can't go 5 out or run much high PnR. He dodges Boston, GSW, Memphis, the Kings, etc.

I sm not saying Jokic's title is undeserved, or that he and the team haven't improved since their past failures, but Jokic has a weakness. Now he's so good on O, and has such a well matched support cast, that being a high PnR team isn't enough. It takes a really good team to beat him too. The Kings have too many weaknesses for it to matter for eg. But the old Harden Rockets or CP3 Suns? They'd toast him.

Jokic best match up is against the LAC, 76ers, Heat, Pelicans, etc. Teams who have a classic 5 man and/or can't do enough in high PnR (we'll see if an older Harden changes that for the LAC). This year the Clippers have Harden, the Suns will likely be healthy and deep enough to play alot if high PnR, OKC & Boston can go 5 out, and even teams like the Mavs and aged GSW have a punchers chance. Will Jokic have to play those match ups tho? We'll see.

So you're going to include two teams he lost to because of injuries on his team, and then 2019 and 2020 which were 4-5 years ago? I'm not saying it's not a weakness but this isn't the way to prove it.

He doesn't have a point. No one has claimed Jokic doesn't have any weaknesses.

exactly. The guy trying to move the goalposts

[76ersForLife]

definitely not, most of the teams have glaring flaws. Even OKC at the top is inconsistent against teams with size.

[tamaraw08]

Early 2000s Western Conference:
- Shaq/Kobe Lakers
- Duncan/Admiral Spurs (then Manu/Parker/Duncan Spurs)
- The best Kings team ever
- Dirk/Nash Mavs
- Super deep Sheed Traiblazers.

All of the teams above had multiple seasons where they were championship calibre. All of them had 7-game series against each other, often in the WCF.

Rounding out non-contender side of the playoffs, you had prime KG leading 50-win teams, Pau Gasol with a few solid Memphis squads, the stubbornly still good Stockton/Malone Jazz, Kidd/Marion Suns, Gary Payton trying to keep the Sonics relevant.

5-7 50+ win teams from 2000-2003.

The 99-01 Suns were pretty good too, had a winning more than 50 games under Skiles for those 2 years.
The 99--04 Wolves won at least 50 games 4 times and at least 47 games in that span.
I think what the OP was trying to say is that it's the strongest in terms of the top 11 Western teams, that 4th to 11th seeds were pretty good.

[cupcakesnake]

Early 2000s Western Conference:
- Shaq/Kobe Lakers
- Duncan/Admiral Spurs (then Manu/Parker/Duncan Spurs)
- The best Kings team ever
- Dirk/Nash Mavs
- Super deep Sheed Traiblazers.

All of the teams above had multiple seasons where they were championship calibre. All of them had 7-game series against each other, often in the WCF.

Rounding out non-contender side of the playoffs, you had prime KG leading 50-win teams, Pau Gasol with a few solid Memphis squads, the stubbornly still good Stockton/Malone Jazz, Kidd/Marion Suns, Gary Payton trying to keep the Sonics relevant.

5-7 50+ win teams from 2000-2003.

The 99-01 Suns were pretty good too, had a winning more than 50 games under Skiles for those 2 years.
The 99--04 Wolves won at least 50 games 4 times and at least 47 games in that span.
I think what the OP was trying to say is that it's the strongest in terms of the top 11 Western teams, that 4th to 11th seeds were pretty good.

I mentioned the Suns and Wolves! I swear!
But yeah I agree there's some real depth. I can't really tell how to assess the Lakers and Warriors sometimes, but just the fact that lots of people talk about them winning a playoff series and being locked into the play-in speaks multitudes about the depth. Add on the Utah gave up on this season at the trade deadline and for a while it was 12 playoff-level WC teams.

2014 is worth mentioning. The Suns (Dragic/Bledsoe backcourt) missed the playoffs with 48 wins, which is probably more than any of the play-in teams will win. The Wolves had a top 10 offense and finished 10th (40-42) and had a pretty nice squad of Rubio/Love/Pek/Kevin Martin under the genius of Rick Adelman.

2008 was crazy deep too. The "We Believe" Warriors missed the playoffs with 48 wins. Utah won 54 games and only finished 6th! The Brandon Roy/Aldridge Blazers missed the playoffs.

[Harry Garris]

Hence my comments; he didn't really play any high PnR teams last yr.

Look I know its very common on the internet to act like we can identify super simple solutions to complex problems that people who actually work in the field are seemingly unable to solve, but it's really not that simple. If you could expose Jokic by running 90 PnR possessions per game, teams would do that.

Teams can't do that in reality though because running such a simplified and predictable offense would make them very easy to guard and the Denver defense would adjust to neutralize such an offense.

There are counters that exist for everything, even if you have a center who's not an elite athlete. And NBA coaches are not dummies. Contrary to popular belief.

Coaches are limited by the tools available to them.

They're limited by a lot of things, actually. Which is why talking about basketball in such an oversimplified way is too abstracted to be of any use.

[JujitsuFlip]

The 2003-04 Western Conference had the highest win % against the Eastern conference out of any Western conference ever

Wow, the East was terrible that season. 2 playoff teams with losing records, 2 .500 playoff teams, and the 4 seed was only 1 game above .500

Isn't something like that bound to be the case if the other conf has the highest winning % in nba history against it? It's basic math that the teams in the worst conf will have poor records.

Precisely, that is how math works.

I just did not recall the East ever being that big of turds, regardless of the stat.

[AleksandarN]

And who does he lose to historically?

2022; Warriors (high PnR team)
2021; Suns (high PnR team)
2020; Lakers (were still a pretty heavy high PnR team back then when Lebron had the legs for it)
2019; Blazers (high PnR team)

The Nuggets tanked regular season games in the past just to avoid Harden, so terrified were they of him destroying Jokic in the PnR. Then last year he plays some pretty flawed teams who are more midrange focused, or who can't go 5 out or run much high PnR. He dodges Boston, GSW, Memphis, the Kings, etc.

I sm not saying Jokic's title is undeserved, or that he and the team haven't improved since their past failures, but Jokic has a weakness. Now he's so good on O, and has such a well matched support cast, that being a high PnR team isn't enough. It takes a really good team to beat him too. The Kings have too many weaknesses for it to matter for eg. But the old Harden Rockets or CP3 Suns? They'd toast him.

Jokic best match up is against the LAC, 76ers, Heat, Pelicans, etc. Teams who have a classic 5 man and/or can't do enough in high PnR (we'll see if an older Harden changes that for the LAC). This year the Clippers have Harden, the Suns will likely be healthy and deep enough to play alot if high PnR, OKC & Boston can go 5 out, and even teams like the Mavs and aged GSW have a punchers chance. Will Jokic have to play those match ups tho? We'll see.

So you're going to include two teams he lost to because of injuries on his team, and then 2019 and 2020 which were 4-5 years ago? I'm not saying it's not a weakness but this isn't the way to prove it.

To hear posters like the one above you injuries only count for the Nuggets.

Jokic having a weakness doesn't mean teams who play to that weakness are able to overcome it. Hopefully this playoffs we get more info.

Here is more info. If only teams would put Jokic through pick and rolls more. Expose him!!

Read on Twitter

[One_and_Done]

RS and playoffs are a different animals.

[AleksandarN]

RS and playoffs are a different animals.

Yet Jokic with a fully healthy team has yet to be exposed. You have not brought any evidence to say other wise. Funny enough I and others have. I was expecting a more intellectual and robust discussion unfortunately it is more mundane and tedious.