Higher Peak: Jokic vs Vic

[dhsilv2]

- And scoring wise, it's not so difficult he will reach Jokic volumen and efficiency. He is much taller and more nimble than him, and near the rim has it easier. (Not that Jokic is bad at that, but still).

So my vote is for 50% chance.

What in the hell are you smoking? Sure a lot of guys could reach Jokic's volume, but efficiency? Jokic is the most efficient scorer at his volume in NBA history. Saying he's tall so there's a good chance he can become the most efficient player ever is absurd.

[dhsilv2]

Going back I should have added a 10% chance, but I don't think it really makes sense to gonlower than that.
The 90 percentile outcome for a guy who started the way Vic started with his level of expectations is GOAT status.

We're saying "what if Vic develops his shooting, passing, defensive insticts reaching his ceiling there while staying healthy".
That's totally "he broke the game" level.

For instance, 90 percentile for Haliburton now is at least one MVP+title, imo.

A 10% chance is absolutely MASSIVE!

If we went back to Lebron's rookie year and you outlined what Lebron's done in his career so far. That would be what...he was billed as the greatest talent maybe ever. So his career would be something like a 1% chance, if we're REALLY REALLY high on him? For every Lebron who exceeds insane expectations, there's a Greg Oden.

[dhsilv2]

Doesn`t care about his body that much. He could be a better athlete, fitter, while retaining or even improving his strength. Ofc he has grown, everyone does, but the difference with him is that he is so intelligent. He makes the most out of what he has, but I would not say he is willing to work on EVERYTHING to become better. Wemby will do that, thus a higher ceiling just mentally but now add in 8ft wingspan/mobility.. Wemby has already found mobility stuff because he wants to learn and be as great an athlete as he can be, Luka and Jokic drink Coke and enjoy themselves within their limited athletic parameters, which also limits what they can do, which is fine, but that`s not a great and growing mentality. They are just smart bball players and talented, but they could be more, but its hard to explain in depth without going too deep about the human body and blabla. Just enjoy Wemby, I think he will be astounding because of his mindset in particular.

Jokic had his last Coke before he got into the plane that took him to USA 8 or 9 years ago. Every single teammate of his says that he spends a lot of time in the gym, that he goes there after every game and that he lifts heavy. DeAndre Ayton and Draymond Green said on some podcasts that he runs a lot too and that they a had hard time chasing him.

Conditioning issues are wayyyyyyyy past Jokic.

Yeah, I am not questioning his heart capacity, more his overall dedication to athletic performance. I do know a lot of "secrets" about getting athletic, so it`s probably easier for me to say just get athletic, but the answers are out there if one does their research. Just got to want it and not accept your own physical limitations but look at what is lacking/missing/stiff/weak without going too in depth. I was a terrible athlete in my early 20`s, now a great one in my 30`s. Junk food and a stiff/weak body with poor movement patterns compared to healthy food and a mobile/strong body with great movement patterns is a good start..

Jokic is among the strongest guys in the league. His endurance in among the best. His movement is excellent. He's not a great leaper nor is he extremely mobile (lateral or vertical speed). The guy very clearly is in great shape. He could be better, but there are a hell of a lot of guys who look more fit than him who aren't remotely in as good a "basketball" conditioned state as him.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Going back I should have added a 10% chance, but I don't think it really makes sense to gonlower than that.
The 90 percentile outcome for a guy who started the way Vic started with his level of expectations is GOAT status.

We're saying "what if Vic develops his shooting, passing, defensive insticts reaching his ceiling there while staying healthy".
That's totally "he broke the game" level.

For instance, 90 percentile for Haliburton now is at least one MVP+title, imo.

A 10% chance is absolutely MASSIVE!

If we went back to Lebron's rookie year and you outlined what Lebron's done in his career so far. That would be what...he was billed as the greatest talent maybe ever. So his career would be something like a 1% chance, if we're REALLY REALLY high on him? For every Lebron who exceeds insane expectations, there's a Greg Oden.

so 50%?
How many guys have been hyped at the level of Vic predraft?
Alcindor, Lebron, maybe Shaq? maybe Ewing? Duncan? Akeem? I think other can't miss prospects were a level below, and Vic has already shown his potential in the NBA, we're nomore evaluating him pre-draft.
There's not really a 1% chance that guys with this talent exceed expectations, a 90 percentile outcome for a guy like that is a GOAT level peak.
Even Zion could have been in such a conversation out of Duke, while he probably reached his 30 percentile or so so far.

[Chokic]

Barring injury Victor Wembanyama will surpass jokic's highest peak by year 3 or year 4.

Thanks for your input ‘Chokic’

You think Wemby got hate this year going against chet for rookie of the year wait until he wins mvp over jokic.

[dhsilv2]

Going back I should have added a 10% chance, but I don't think it really makes sense to gonlower than that.
The 90 percentile outcome for a guy who started the way Vic started with his level of expectations is GOAT status.

We're saying "what if Vic develops his shooting, passing, defensive insticts reaching his ceiling there while staying healthy".
That's totally "he broke the game" level.

For instance, 90 percentile for Haliburton now is at least one MVP+title, imo.

A 10% chance is absolutely MASSIVE!

If we went back to Lebron's rookie year and you outlined what Lebron's done in his career so far. That would be what...he was billed as the greatest talent maybe ever. So his career would be something like a 1% chance, if we're REALLY REALLY high on him? For every Lebron who exceeds insane expectations, there's a Greg Oden.

so 50%?
How many guys have been hyped at the level of Vic predraft?
Alcindor, Lebron, maybe Shaq? maybe Ewing? Duncan? Akeem? I think other can't miss prospects were a level below, and Vic has already shown his potential in the NBA, we're nomore evaluating him pre-draft.
There's not really a 1% chance that guys with this talent exceed expectations, a 90 percentile outcome for a guy like that is a GOAT level peak.
Even Zion could have been in such a conversation out of Duke, while he probably reached his 30 percentile or so so far.

Wemby doesn't just have to beat expectations to pass Jokic's peak. He has to blow them away!

Guys that would seem comparable would also include AD, David Robinson, KD, Oden, and Yao Ming. None of those guys are anywhere near this level.

[dhsilv2]

Barring injury Victor Wembanyama will surpass jokic's highest peak by year 3 or year 4.

Thanks for your input ‘Chokic’

You think Wemby got hate this year going against chet for rookie of the year wait until he wins mvp over jokic.

He got hate? And why would he get hate in a few years for contending with Jokic for MVP? Wemby is going to be great and I hope he wins multiple MVP's. But winning an MVP or 2 isn't going to make his peak greater than Jokic...

[Ryoga Hibiki]

A 10% chance is absolutely MASSIVE!

If we went back to Lebron's rookie year and you outlined what Lebron's done in his career so far. That would be what...he was billed as the greatest talent maybe ever. So his career would be something like a 1% chance, if we're REALLY REALLY high on him? For every Lebron who exceeds insane expectations, there's a Greg Oden.

so 50%?
How many guys have been hyped at the level of Vic predraft?
Alcindor, Lebron, maybe Shaq? maybe Ewing? Duncan? Akeem? I think other can't miss prospects were a level below, and Vic has already shown his potential in the NBA, we're nomore evaluating him pre-draft.
There's not really a 1% chance that guys with this talent exceed expectations, a 90 percentile outcome for a guy like that is a GOAT level peak.
Even Zion could have been in such a conversation out of Duke, while he probably reached his 30 percentile or so so far.

Wemby doesn't just have to beat expectations to pass Jokic's peak. He has to blow them away!

Guys that would seem comparable would also include AD, David Robinson, KD, Oden, and Yao Ming. None of those guys are anywhere near this level.

They were not comparable to him, not even close. In particular with what we know now about him.
Easily a tier below if not two.

[bledredwine]

Victor will be incredible.
I've been waiting for a player to come in, capitalize on the
open lane and potentially change the rules.
He has that sort of dominant potential.

Generational (or even superstar potential) rookies are almost always
neglected at first, relative to their ultimate capabilities.

You'll all see in a couple of years.

[dhsilv2]

so 50%?
How many guys have been hyped at the level of Vic predraft?
Alcindor, Lebron, maybe Shaq? maybe Ewing? Duncan? Akeem? I think other can't miss prospects were a level below, and Vic has already shown his potential in the NBA, we're nomore evaluating him pre-draft.
There's not really a 1% chance that guys with this talent exceed expectations, a 90 percentile outcome for a guy like that is a GOAT level peak.
Even Zion could have been in such a conversation out of Duke, while he probably reached his 30 percentile or so so far.

Wemby doesn't just have to beat expectations to pass Jokic's peak. He has to blow them away!

Guys that would seem comparable would also include AD, David Robinson, KD, Oden, and Yao Ming. None of those guys are anywhere near this level.

They were not comparable to him, not even close. In particular with what we know now about him.
Easily a tier below if not two.

What do we know about Wemby that makes him a better prospect than Oden? Same with AD and Robinson for that matter.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Wemby doesn't just have to beat expectations to pass Jokic's peak. He has to blow them away!

Guys that would seem comparable would also include AD, David Robinson, KD, Oden, and Yao Ming. None of those guys are anywhere near this level.

They were not comparable to him, not even close. In particular with what we know now about him.
Easily a tier below if not two.

What do we know about Wemby that makes him a better prospect than Oden? Same with AD and Robinson for that matter.

Well, first of all he's not missing his rookie season unlike Oden, this helps a lot.
Robinson was 25 as a rookie, had he been doing that at 19 he might have been the best prospect of all time.
Davis as a rookie was showing both far less defensive and offensive potential.

[dhsilv2]

They were not comparable to him, not even close. In particular with what we know now about him.
Easily a tier below if not two.

What do we know about Wemby that makes him a better prospect than Oden? Same with AD and Robinson for that matter.

Well, first of all he's not missing his rookie season unlike Oden, this helps a lot.
Robinson was 25 as a rookie, had he been doing that at 19 he might have been the best prospect of all time.
Davis as a rookie was showing both far less defensive and offensive potential.

Wemby has more offensive potential than Robinson? What? I'm not that high on Robinson's offensive game but he was able to lead the league in score. I don't see Wemby as ever being a top 15 offensive guy. His defense absolutely could be all time great, but even then there's a lot of questions still.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

What do we know about Wemby that makes him a better prospect than Oden? Same with AD and Robinson for that matter.

Well, first of all he's not missing his rookie season unlike Oden, this helps a lot.
Robinson was 25 as a rookie, had he been doing that at 19 he might have been the best prospect of all time.
Davis as a rookie was showing both far less defensive and offensive potential.

Wemby has more offensive potential than Robinson? What? I'm not that high on Robinson's offensive game but he was able to lead the league in score. I don't see Wemby as ever being a top 15 offensive guy. His defense absolutely could be all time great, but even then there's a lot of questions still.

You sure you did read carefully what I wrote?

[Vampirate]

Wemby basically has a higher ceiling but lower floor than Jokic.

People think Wemby is a Unicorn, but the truth is Jokic is much more of an outlier.

Wemby has guard athleticism in a 7-5 body, however he needs a point guard.

Jokic has point guard skill in a 7 foot body and is the point guard.

This is pretty much the difference.

[dhsilv2]

Well, first of all he's not missing his rookie season unlike Oden, this helps a lot.
Robinson was 25 as a rookie, had he been doing that at 19 he might have been the best prospect of all time.
Davis as a rookie was showing both far less defensive and offensive potential.

Wemby has more offensive potential than Robinson? What? I'm not that high on Robinson's offensive game but he was able to lead the league in score. I don't see Wemby as ever being a top 15 offensive guy. His defense absolutely could be all time great, but even then there's a lot of questions still.

You sure you did read carefully what I wrote?

I clearly did not. Though Davis might have been a better offensive prospect than Robinson, so that wouldn't change much here. I'd add Robinson was drafted 1st despite knowing the spurs would have to wait. I don't think that's a good counter argument. I won't even get into Duncan doesn't have a case for peaking higher.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Wemby has more offensive potential than Robinson? What? I'm not that high on Robinson's offensive game but he was able to lead the league in score. I don't see Wemby as ever being a top 15 offensive guy. His defense absolutely could be all time great, but even then there's a lot of questions still.

You sure you did read carefully what I wrote?

I clearly did not. Though Davis might have been a better offensive prospect than Robinson, so that wouldn't change much here. I'd add Robinson was drafted 1st despite knowing the spurs would have to wait. I don't think that's a good counter argument. I won't even get into Duncan doesn't have a case for peaking higher.

I really can't imagine having Davis as a better prospect, either offensively or defensively, than Vic at the of their rookie seasons.
How can you justify that? The kind of flashes Wemby showed are at another level and they had a similar age. Davis wasn't even ROY...

[dhsilv2]

You sure you did read carefully what I wrote?

I clearly did not. Though Davis might have been a better offensive prospect than Robinson, so that wouldn't change much here. I'd add Robinson was drafted 1st despite knowing the spurs would have to wait. I don't think that's a good counter argument. I won't even get into Duncan doesn't have a case for peaking higher.

I really can't imagine having Davis as a better prospect, either offensively or defensively, than Vic at the of their rookie seasons.
How can you justify that? The kind of flashes Wemby showed are at another level and they had a similar age. Davis wasn't even ROY...

Davis showed pretty early he could pack on size. He had a good jumper even back at Kentucky. His mid range post game looks really nice. Wemby's passing has me debating in my head if he's actually got a lot of upside there or if I'm just wanting to see it. I'd also add AD was being compared to Duncan as a defensive prospect coming out of Kentucky as well. His whole profile was "under sized guard in high school who shot up to near 7'0 footer while keeping much of his guard skills". Now...30 pounds of muscle later, AD doesn't remind me of a guard at all. But that was the profile we had coming in. GM's had him as the guy that they'd most want to build a team around. AD looked like a multie time MVP very early.

[CobraCommander]

Jokic has improved every year he has been in the league. Yeah makes no sense at all

Doesn`t care about his body that much. He could be a better athlete, fitter, while retaining or even improving his strength. Ofc he has grown, everyone does, but the difference with him is that he is so intelligent. He makes the most out of what he has, but I would not say he is willing to work on EVERYTHING to become better. Wemby will do that, thus a higher ceiling just mentally but now add in 8ft wingspan/mobility.. Wemby has already found mobility stuff because he wants to learn and be as great an athlete as he can be, Luka and Jokic drink Coke and enjoy themselves within their limited athletic parameters, which also limits what they can do, which is fine, but that`s not a great and growing mentality. They are just smart bball players and talented, but they could be more, but its hard to explain in depth without going too deep about the human body and blabla. Just enjoy Wemby, I think he will be astounding because of his mindset in particular.

This whole reply tells me you don’t know anything about Jokic.

He is acting like Jokic is cheating the game when in fact he is proving (like Tim Duncan before him) that being fundamentally sound, well rounded and playing within the structure of the team is more important than your vertical -

See Mikey Williams and Emoni Bates if you want measurables - see Jokic if you want results

[dhsilv2]

Doesn`t care about his body that much. He could be a better athlete, fitter, while retaining or even improving his strength. Ofc he has grown, everyone does, but the difference with him is that he is so intelligent. He makes the most out of what he has, but I would not say he is willing to work on EVERYTHING to become better. Wemby will do that, thus a higher ceiling just mentally but now add in 8ft wingspan/mobility.. Wemby has already found mobility stuff because he wants to learn and be as great an athlete as he can be, Luka and Jokic drink Coke and enjoy themselves within their limited athletic parameters, which also limits what they can do, which is fine, but that`s not a great and growing mentality. They are just smart bball players and talented, but they could be more, but its hard to explain in depth without going too deep about the human body and blabla. Just enjoy Wemby, I think he will be astounding because of his mindset in particular.

This whole reply tells me you don’t know anything about Jokic.

He is acting like Jokic is cheating the game when in fact he is proving (like Tim Duncan before him) that being fundamentally sound, well rounded and playing within the structure of the team is more important than your vertical -

See Mikey Williams and Emoni Bates if you want measurables - see Jokic if you want results

I dunno about fundamentally sound. Jokic is doing stuff we've never seen before. He's out there throwing spinning hooks outlets around a defender to a 3 point shooter in the corner like it's a bounce pass. Duncan was fundamentally sound with super length. Jokic is so lab experiment gone right!

[CobraCommander]

This whole reply tells me you don’t know anything about Jokic.

He is acting like Jokic is cheating the game when in fact he is proving (like Tim Duncan before him) that being fundamentally sound, well rounded and playing within the structure of the team is more important than your vertical -

See Mikey Williams and Emoni Bates if you want measurables - see Jokic if you want results

I dunno about fundamentally sound. Jokic is doing stuff we've never seen before. He's out there throwing spinning hooks outlets around a defender to a 3 point shooter in the corner like it's a bounce pass. Duncan was fundamentally sound with super length. Jokic is so lab experiment gone right!

Fair but the fundamentals are there too - move the ball and get the best shot - that’s fundamental