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ChipotleWest wrote:NbaAllDay wrote:ChipotleWest wrote:
idk, bored I guess.
You must be bored a lot with the amount of times you post in these kinds of threads. To each their own I guess.
Targeted boredom.
Isn't it sad the League is trying to artificially make your boy the GOAT by giving his team the largest free throw margin two years in a row? He'll never be the GOAT though.
NbaAllDay wrote:ChipotleWest wrote:NbaAllDay wrote:
You must be bored a lot with the amount of times you post in these kinds of threads. To each their own I guess.
Targeted boredom.
Isn't it sad the League is trying to artificially make your boy the GOAT by giving his team the largest free throw margin two years in a row? He'll never be the GOAT though.
Sad was probably a more apt word to use over bored given that response. I'll let you be.
NyKnicks1714 wrote:AussieCeltic wrote:NyKnicks1714 wrote:
If you want to demonstrate it's "near impossible", do it correctly. I'm happy to listen. You point to the differential but you don't talk about offense and defense individually.
Show it's near impossible for them to be 2nd in opponent FTA/g.
Show it's near impossible for them to be 3rd in FTA/g.
At least start with just one of them, without mentioning the differential (which again, combines two unrelated statistics).
Say it without saying the thing that it is. The stat is differential my friend so I’m going to use the correct terminology. Anytime you try to handcuff someone with a response, you know you’ve lost. The stats are related my friend. One is for team A and the other is for team B in a head to head matchup, they are related.
The difference between 1st and 2nd in differential is the higher than the difference between 2nd and 30th.
Are you saying that is normal? If it’s normal, why hasn’t it ever happened in NBA history or any other sport for that matter? We’re looking at hundreds of thousands of examples throughout multiple sports across probably 100 years and there’s nothing like this.
I'm saying it doesn't matter if it's "normal" or abnormal or commonplace or rare. That's not enough to determine anything. Obviously this sort of differential is extremely uncommmon, although it has happened. You can laugh all you want at the Hornets example...but it happened. Their differential one season was MUCH higher (to the tune of +2.7ft) than either of the last two seasons the Lakers had. Their differential the season prior was a little lower than the Lakers' this season or last (+0.6 and +0.3). Combine the two seasons for each team and the Hornets had a significantly higher differential. Honestly though, don't care about the Hornets because they don't matter. I only have to bring them up when people claim biased officiating is the only way a team can have that high a differential. It's a red herring. Let's talk about the team we're talking about.
I'm looking at the actual reason for that differential. I'm pointing to their free throw attempts on offense and suggesting it's reasonable based on how they play, which it is. Likewise, I look at their opponent FTA and suggest it's reasonable based on how they play defense, which it is. I've talked about it ad nauseum.
If you thought it was "near impossible", you would easily be able to demonstrate how each of these are near impossible. But you can't, not even with one. You're unable or unwilling to have a basketball discussion about why this is happening. You'll point to anything except the actual drivers of the differential.
But just answer this question for starers: Do you think it's reasonable for them to be 3rd in FTA/g based on their players and their offensive strategy. Yes or no? And why? If no, where would you expect them to be based on how they play? We can talk about defense afterwards, or start with it if you want.
eyeatoma wrote:IMO the bigger issue is that Denver and the Jazz are allowed to host games at a high altitute, when they have literally had news exposes saying how it's a clear competetive advantage to play there.
AussieCeltic wrote:NyKnicks1714 wrote:AussieCeltic wrote:
Say it without saying the thing that it is. The stat is differential my friend so I’m going to use the correct terminology. Anytime you try to handcuff someone with a response, you know you’ve lost. The stats are related my friend. One is for team A and the other is for team B in a head to head matchup, they are related.
The difference between 1st and 2nd in differential is the higher than the difference between 2nd and 30th.
Are you saying that is normal? If it’s normal, why hasn’t it ever happened in NBA history or any other sport for that matter? We’re looking at hundreds of thousands of examples throughout multiple sports across probably 100 years and there’s nothing like this.
I'm saying it doesn't matter if it's "normal" or abnormal or commonplace or rare. That's not enough to determine anything. Obviously this sort of differential is extremely uncommmon, although it has happened. You can laugh all you want at the Hornets example...but it happened. Their differential one season was MUCH higher (to the tune of +2.7ft) than either of the last two seasons the Lakers had. Their differential the season prior was a little lower than the Lakers' this season or last (+0.6 and +0.3). Combine the two seasons for each team and the Hornets had a significantly higher differential. Honestly though, don't care about the Hornets because they don't matter. I only have to bring them up when people claim biased officiating is the only way a team can have that high a differential. It's a red herring. Let's talk about the team we're talking about.
I'm looking at the actual reason for that differential. I'm pointing to their free throw attempts on offense and suggesting it's reasonable based on how they play, which it is. Likewise, I look at their opponent FTA and suggest it's reasonable based on how they play defense, which it is. I've talked about it ad nauseum.
If you thought it was "near impossible", you would easily be able to demonstrate how each of these are near impossible. But you can't, not even with one. You're unable or unwilling to have a basketball discussion about why this is happening. You'll point to anything except the actual drivers of the differential.
But just answer this question for starers: Do you think it's reasonable for them to be 3rd in FTA/g based on their players and their offensive strategy. Yes or no? And why? If no, where would you expect them to be based on how they play? We can talk about defense afterwards, or start with it if you want.
I’m on holidays so don’t have much time to go into it. But I’ve been referencing Lakers post Boston game number which is +10.25. The next best was +1.7.. a near +8.5 differential on the 2nd best team.
Hornets (2nd highest in NBA history) were +8.8 for the season with next best +5.5. A gap of +3.3 to #2 which is high but still reasonable.
They’re over +1000 in a 2 year span with the next best being +350. So yeh, there is a massive issue there.
NyKnicks1714 wrote:ChipotleWest wrote:NyKnicks1714 wrote:
No one said it's a coincidence. You're acting like FT differential is just some random thing; if it was, you'd have a great case. It's largely based on both their offensive and defensive game-plans, but I have yet to encounter a single person here who disagrees with me and is willing to actually get into that discussion.
So now you're saying it's just the Lakers play style to not only get free throws but prevent their opponent regardless of which other 29 teams they are from getting them?
It's exactly their strategy on defense (and honestly I don't even think it's a good one). Anyone who has watched them play a few times can see this. They minimize the number of FT's their opponents take but at the expense of giving their opponents more open looks at threes (and long twos) than most other teams do.
Not going to pretend to know more than Darvin Ham, but it hasn't proven to be a terribly successful strategy IMO. They're average to slightly below average on defense which seems to be about the minimum they can be with their personnel. A more conventional strategy would serve them better in my view.
Hon-essim wrote:LOL @John Starks, Charles Oakley, Harper and Davis = average team but Smush, Kwame and Luke = not.
NyKnicks1714 wrote:AussieCeltic wrote:NyKnicks1714 wrote:
I'm saying it doesn't matter if it's "normal" or abnormal or commonplace or rare. That's not enough to determine anything. Obviously this sort of differential is extremely uncommmon, although it has happened. You can laugh all you want at the Hornets example...but it happened. Their differential one season was MUCH higher (to the tune of +2.7ft) than either of the last two seasons the Lakers had. Their differential the season prior was a little lower than the Lakers' this season or last (+0.6 and +0.3). Combine the two seasons for each team and the Hornets had a significantly higher differential. Honestly though, don't care about the Hornets because they don't matter. I only have to bring them up when people claim biased officiating is the only way a team can have that high a differential. It's a red herring. Let's talk about the team we're talking about.
I'm looking at the actual reason for that differential. I'm pointing to their free throw attempts on offense and suggesting it's reasonable based on how they play, which it is. Likewise, I look at their opponent FTA and suggest it's reasonable based on how they play defense, which it is. I've talked about it ad nauseum.
If you thought it was "near impossible", you would easily be able to demonstrate how each of these are near impossible. But you can't, not even with one. You're unable or unwilling to have a basketball discussion about why this is happening. You'll point to anything except the actual drivers of the differential.
But just answer this question for starers: Do you think it's reasonable for them to be 3rd in FTA/g based on their players and their offensive strategy. Yes or no? And why? If no, where would you expect them to be based on how they play? We can talk about defense afterwards, or start with it if you want.
I’m on holidays so don’t have much time to go into it. But I’ve been referencing Lakers post Boston game number which is +10.25. The next best was +1.7.. a near +8.5 differential on the 2nd best team.
Hornets (2nd highest in NBA history) were +8.8 for the season with next best +5.5. A gap of +3.3 to #2 which is high but still reasonable.
They’re over +1000 in a 2 year span with the next best being +350. So yeh, there is a massive issue there.
So the Hornets had a gap of +3.3 to #2 which was "reasonable", but the Lakers have a gap of +3.1 to #2, which is "nearly impossible"...
Surely there's someone out there on your side of the argument who can do better than whatever this is.
You'll talk about literally anything besides how the Lakers play basketball. When someone responds with why the differential is the way it is, talking about actual basketball, you'll refuse to discuss it.
They're 3rd in FTA/g, 2nd in lowest opponent FTA/g. If you're saying the differential is nearly impossible, then either one or both of those positions have to be problematic. So which is it, and how? Otherwise you're telling me that they're both reasonable, but somehow when you combine them it becomes unreasonable.
eyeatoma wrote:IMO the bigger issue is that Denver and the Jazz are allowed to host games at a high altitute, when they have literally had news exposes saying how it's a clear competetive advantage to play there.
HotRocks34 wrote:Great job by Aussie in the thread and also kudos to Hornet for pointing out the Hack A Dwight issue that the Ringer writer seemed to miss.
NyKnicks1714 wrote:HotRocks34 wrote:Great job by Aussie in the thread and also kudos to Hornet for pointing out the Hack A Dwight issue that the Ringer writer seemed to miss.
The Dwight thing isn't really a factor. They had Dwight, but his free throw rate that season was the 2nd lowest of his career and well below his career average. He shot 7.2 free throws a game, which is below his career average. Same with FTA/100 and FTA/36.
Any way you slice it, the Hornets had a massive FT differential over those two seasons (higher than the Lakers), especially 2018. But it doesn't matter. The poster you praise (aussieceltic) refuses to engage in any discussion about how the Lakers play basketball...which you know, is more important to the topic of their free throw disparity than other teams in other seasons are.
eyeatoma wrote:IMO the bigger issue is that Denver and the Jazz are allowed to host games at a high altitute, when they have literally had news exposes saying how it's a clear competetive advantage to play there.
NyKnicks1714 wrote:ballzboyee wrote:The Lakers have a +0.3 ppg differential to their opponents. Without their massive disparity in FTA which is basically the equivalent of having an extra player in 10-man rotation contributing off the bench that other teams do not have, they go from maybe play-in team to being in the hunt for a lottery pick.[[The reality is that the Lakers are really a bad team that is being carried by the league officiating. Without the refs intervening,the idea that Lebron is having some kind of on-court impact evaporates and the league loses one of its biggest regular season draws for ratings.
The arguments people cite to explain away the massive FT disparity are just circular reasoning, i.e. the reason Lakers foul less is the same reason they draw more fouls -- the refs and the league's agenda to prop on a 40-year-old AARP member no matter what. The Lakers are #1 in the league in FTA and their opponents are next to 29th in the league in drawing fouls against the Lakers. The only common denominators are the refs and the Lakers.
Circular reasoning, i.e. prove the refs are not biased toward the Lakers when the control the calls on both ends of the court. Short answer you can't because fouls are inherently subjective to the way the NBA enforces the rules to give certain players star treatment and regularly conducts point-of-emphasis tweaks to how they call games officiating certain plays, teams, and players. The NBA even admits to doing this. The FT disparity is totally smoking. Believe your lying eyes for once. It is what it looks like. Stop gaslighting yourself and just accept the law parsimony. The league is desperate to have the Lakers in the postseason. They may not care what happens after the Lakers get there, but they definitely want Lebron to be playing basketball after the end of the regular season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoningCircular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving";[1] also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[2] Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy, but a pragmatic defect in an argument whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade. Other ways to express this are that there is no reason to accept the premises unless one already believes the conclusion, or that the premises provide no independent ground or evidence for the conclusion.[3] Circular reasoning is closely related to begging the question, and in modern usage the two generally refer to the same thing.[4]
The fact that you only used circular logic (in short: "the Lakers have a high FT differential because the NBA wants them to win, which is proven by their high FT differential") in a post where you create a strawman and criticize the other side for using circular logic...it's just the cherry on top and perfectly encapsulates this thread.
The “Hack-a-Howard” move from opposing coaches is starting to be used more.
AussieCeltic wrote:NyKnicks1714 wrote:AussieCeltic wrote:
I’m on holidays so don’t have much time to go into it. But I’ve been referencing Lakers post Boston game number which is +10.25. The next best was +1.7.. a near +8.5 differential on the 2nd best team.
Hornets (2nd highest in NBA history) were +8.8 for the season with next best +5.5. A gap of +3.3 to #2 which is high but still reasonable.
They’re over +1000 in a 2 year span with the next best being +350. So yeh, there is a massive issue there.
So the Hornets had a gap of +3.3 to #2 which was "reasonable", but the Lakers have a gap of +3.1 to #2, which is "nearly impossible"...
Surely there's someone out there on your side of the argument who can do better than whatever this is.
You'll talk about literally anything besides how the Lakers play basketball. When someone responds with why the differential is the way it is, talking about actual basketball, you'll refuse to discuss it.
They're 3rd in FTA/g, 2nd in lowest opponent FTA/g. If you're saying the differential is nearly impossible, then either one or both of those positions have to be problematic. So which is it, and how? Otherwise you're telling me that they're both reasonable, but somehow when you combine them it becomes unreasonable.
I mean are you reading what I’m saying? I’ve very clearly said POST Boston game last season where they went +10.25 and the next best is +1.7 in that span.
AussieCeltic wrote:Ok. Then what changed in their play style exactly after the date they played Boston and whinged to the league about the missed calls?
Also, the Lakers advantage post Boston game is the highest in league history. Thats the point where there was change and people are talking about. You keep using the full season and being disingenuous about it
NyKnicks1714 wrote:AussieCeltic wrote:NyKnicks1714 wrote:
So the Hornets had a gap of +3.3 to #2 which was "reasonable", but the Lakers have a gap of +3.1 to #2, which is "nearly impossible"...
Surely there's someone out there on your side of the argument who can do better than whatever this is.
You'll talk about literally anything besides how the Lakers play basketball. When someone responds with why the differential is the way it is, talking about actual basketball, you'll refuse to discuss it.
They're 3rd in FTA/g, 2nd in lowest opponent FTA/g. If you're saying the differential is nearly impossible, then either one or both of those positions have to be problematic. So which is it, and how? Otherwise you're telling me that they're both reasonable, but somehow when you combine them it becomes unreasonable.
I mean are you reading what I’m saying? I’ve very clearly said POST Boston game last season where they went +10.25 and the next best is +1.7 in that span.
You're quoting a post where I quoted you mentioning the gap in a 2 year span, which covers this season and pre-Boston game last season...and respond with "I've very clearly said POST Boston game last season", so yes I'm reading what you're saying but I don't think you know what you're saying. You're all over the place.
So you have no issue with their differential this season on it's own, and we're in agreement that it's reasonable? Are were purely just talking about the 30 game stretch to end the 2022-2023 season and in agreement that everything following is reasonable? You're dancing around and moving goalpoasts so much in this thread that I truly don't know. You also refuse to respond to 90% of what we're saying while everyone tries to address every point you're attempting to make. It's poor-faith debating.
eyeatoma wrote:IMO the bigger issue is that Denver and the Jazz are allowed to host games at a high altitute, when they have literally had news exposes saying how it's a clear competetive advantage to play there.
AussieCeltic wrote:NyKnicks1714 wrote:HotRocks34 wrote:Great job by Aussie in the thread and also kudos to Hornet for pointing out the Hack A Dwight issue that the Ringer writer seemed to miss.
The Dwight thing isn't really a factor. They had Dwight, but his free throw rate that season was the 2nd lowest of his career and well below his career average. He shot 7.2 free throws a game, which is below his career average. Same with FTA/100 and FTA/36.
Any way you slice it, the Hornets had a massive FT differential over those two seasons (higher than the Lakers), especially 2018. But it doesn't matter. The poster you praise (aussieceltic) refuses to engage in any discussion about how the Lakers play basketball...which you know, is more important to the topic of their free throw disparity than other teams in other seasons are.
Ok. Then what changed in their play style exactly after the date they played Boston and whinged to the league about the missed calls?
Also, the Lakers advantage post Boston game is the highest in league history. Thats the point where there was change and people are talking about. You keep using the full season and being disingenuous about it
xinxin wrote:Why are you guys even watching the NBA if the game is rigged for the lakers ?
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AussieCeltic wrote:NyKnicks1714 wrote:AussieCeltic wrote:=
You really think someone has the time to go through each and every call of each game? Or can we use the statistics available to us and realise that it’s near impossible for this to be happening without some sort of interference.
If you want to demonstrate it's "near impossible", do it correctly. I'm happy to listen. You point to the differential but you don't talk about offense and defense individually.
Show it's near impossible for them to be 2nd in opponent FTA/g.
Show it's near impossible for them to be 3rd in FTA/g.
At least start with just one of them, without mentioning the differential (which again, combines two unrelated statistics).
Say it without saying the thing that it is. The stat is differential my friend so I’m going to use the correct terminology. Anytime you try to handcuff someone with a response, you know you’ve lost. The stats are related my friend. One is for team A and the other is for team B in a head to head matchup, they are related.
The difference between 1st and 2nd in differential is the higher than the difference between 2nd and 30th.
Are you saying that is normal? If it’s normal, why hasn’t it ever happened in NBA history or any other sport for that matter? We’re looking at hundreds of thousands of examples throughout multiple sports across probably 100 years and there’s nothing like this.
