Main reason Jordan is the GOAT

[Marrrcuss]

Why is the hate from Dallas fans so damn intense for Bron? You won the series that is most talked about every damn day. You get to gloat about that shyt damn near every day as thats how often its referenced. Sit back and enjoy, damn.

[nikster]

Jordan would likely be a top 5 player if he played today, but I doubt anyone would consider him the GOAT. The 90s sucked compared to today's league.

Jordan won titles in the ‘90’s with Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Ray Allen, KG etc in the league and all those guys won titles with Lebron in the league. So Lebron was getting his ass handed to him by ‘90’s players but go on with your anti 90’s rant. Enthrall me with your acumen

I dont want to get deep into this debate but that is a hilariously stupid list.

Jordans final year Duncan was a rookie, Ray Allen a sophmore, Kobe was a teenager, KG in his 3rd year. Shaq was the oldest at 25 and he did basically all his winning before Lebron was even in the league.

[One_and_Done]

No it wasnt obvious kid you are just backtracking. If you were old enough to have watched 90s nba you would understand that the 3 point shot wasn’t considered a “good” shot and the top offensive players in that era were not focusing on the 3 ball other than guys like Reggie Miller, Glen Rice, Ray Allen, and some others. If Jordan played today that would be more of a focus and he would add it to his arsenal. He would still dominate with his mid range, post up, and an occasional 3 pointer. Plus he would average 8-10 free throws a game and he was a career 84% free throw shooter. Your trolling is changing nobody’s mind.

It's pretty silly to claim it's backtracking when I've explained it in dozens of threads, including ones you have participated in. I guess this just proves you don't read my posts, which means there's no point replying to you.

And its already been proven to you that when Jordan shot more 3s his 3 point percentage increased or he was more efficient. He only averaged 1.7 3 point attempts per game for his career, but the seasons in which he had the most 3 point field goal attempts were his highest 3 point percentage:

89/90
3 attempts per game
.38%

92/93
3 attempts per game
.35%

95/96
3.2 attempts per game
.43%

96/97
3 attempts per game
.37%

People have told you this before but you continue to ignore facts. It took me 5 minutes to gather this information, maybe in the future, you do the same;

- research
- facts

1) Scrub the seasonds with the shorter line.
2) I called Jordan a 'meh' 3pt shooter, not a nonexistent 3pt shooter. If Jordan had no 3 at all I wouldn't be calling him a top 5 player today
3) back then teams took the 3 lightly. When Jordan was shooting it he was basically open. Today the defense is entirely focused on stopping 3s; SGA is not taking wide open 3s. It's the difference between a Herb Joned type and an actual 3pt shooter. Herb has a good % this year, but it's because he only takes it when he's wide open
4) Jordan's overall percentages in non-shortened seasons do not suggest he'd be a good 3pt shooter today.

Astonishly I was already aware if these facts, they've been discussed in many threads I've posted in, including this one.

[One_and_Done]

Wouldn’t this apply more to Russell?

Don't try and use logic. They'll just ignore you or move the goalposts.

I just presented facts to you. How about you do some research if you want people to take you seriously. Your trolling is horrible.

You've already tried to change the top RE: Shai, now that you finally wrapped your head around the point. Feel free to respond whenever.

[art_tatum]

The top 10 all time guys are not that far apart in basketball skill and genetic lottery. The difference is luck, success, timing, play style, and how you build your brand.

Jordan had it all mostly. The mythological, the face of the nba when it globalized (large part to Jordan's game), the play style, the wins and accolades, the legacy ( all on one team pretty much), pretty damn good luck too, and the brand building.

I can't say who is the better player of basketball between some top guys, there's so many ways to play and win. See kaj Lebron curry joker, all win in different ways have different skill sets they excel at.

But none of them have the career path that jordan had. Some of that is also beyond their control.

[Iwasawitness]

Well at some point when you're the greatest basketball player of all time you're going to beat some teams, without having to run to other teams. That's what Jordan did, and the later is what Lebron did.

What you guys are trying to say is because Jordan dominated the 90's so much, the 90's sucked. No no no, Jordan dominated the 90's so much, because he's the GOAT. 90's had plenty of all time great players that's a failed argument.

I’m not sure where you’re getting this idea that LeBron avoided great teams when his finals competition is far superior to what Jordan had to face. It’s funny that Jordan’s never been able to beat superior teams. LeBron on the other hand has two finals wins as the underdog, upset the pistons in 07 via the greatest playoff performance of all time, and pulled off the rare feat of advancing to the finals in 18 while beating every single team with a greater SRS rating than his. But yeah, sure, LeBron was the one who avoided facing great teams, not Jordan.

You're a LeBron fan and you don't even know what his greatest playoff performance is.

It's not game 5 vs the Pistons.

And what do you think his greatest playoff performance is?

[dhsilv2]

Why is the hate from Dallas fans so damn intense for Bron? You won the series that is most talked about every damn day. You get to gloat about that shyt damn near every day as thats how often its referenced. Sit back and enjoy, damn.

Likely because people claim Lebron choked vs giving credit to the team and coaching staff for the work they did to actually stop him? When people claim a player "choked" it's the most disrespectful thing you can say to the other team.

[Iwasawitness]

Sure I want you list all all of Jordan's tough opponents but also let's do Lebron's tough opponents in the East where he had a cakewalk. Then when he got to the Finals he was 3-9 (before he joined the Lakers).

Jordan had Knicks Pacers Magic that's not a cakewalk.

Idk, he played and beat plenty of teams that are right up there with anyone Jordan faced in the East. Plenty of 50 and 60 win teams.

I mean let’s be honest here, Jordan wasn’t getting out of the East until the toughest competition got old and injured (Celtics and Pistons)…and when he finally got out of the East, he went up against another 80s juggernaut that was old and injured (Lakers). I mean the other teams he beat in the Finals were good teams (Blazers, Suns, Sonics, Jazz) but nothing amazing and certainly not close to what LeBron has faced. The toughest East competition Jordan faced in the 90s were the Knicks and Pacers…again, good teams, not anything that crazy though. Is there any evidence they were any better than the 2010s Celtics, Bulls, Raptors, Hawks? Or the 07 Pistons?

Oh so you don't know when it comes to Lebron but you know everything about Jordan. You don't know that Lebron was the only All NBA player in the East from 2011-2018 except Derrick Rose. You don't know he only had to get through teams like the Raptors. Funny how you don't know that but know everything about Jordan.

Where the hell do you get your facts from? Because you couldn’t be more wrong on the bolded.

[shi-woo]

Jordon is the GOAT for 2 reasons.

1. He has had the best career since the ABA/NBA merger winning 6 rings, and being a part of essentially 2 dynasties. The only other team to match the success of even one of those runs was the LA LAkers that also won 3 in a row, but needed 2 Top 10 GOAT candidates and Top 3 coach all time to do it. That's what it all comes down too. If you want to be seen as the best, you have to take down the best, and no one has really come close to that.

2. Story and narrative matters. A great example of this is Tom Brady, another GOAT, and how he was viewed by the end of his career. Remember how it just seemed inevitable that he was going to just march the ball down the field for a win? Remember that now enshrined MIC'd up moment in the superbowl in 2017 when the Pats were down like 27-3 and they caught that conversation of the two Falcons receivers talking, and one of them says "Yeah, but they have Tomy Brady." Go watch that game, the entire comeback. The Falcons were so caught up in playing Tom that they forgot to play the Patriots. MJ had that same mystique where you just drained your ability to think you could beat him. You don't just win the physical edge, but the mental.

That's why LeBrons short comings get brought up in GOAT talks. No one fears LeBron. It took him a decade to get past the old guard (2012) and have had multiple opponents come out and match him. 2012 was reeally the only year LeBron had that could really match an MJ season in terms of "Oh no, here he comes" but that moment already came after the 2010 collapse and 2011 choke job.

LeBron was never really that guy, got crushed for being passive for the first half of his career, and needed to team up with another killer to get over that mental hump/hurtle. The story just doesn't read the same, and that's what matters at the end of the day.

I said it in a previous thread about LEBron, and it still holds true. When you take on the challenge of having the best career in the sport, you are going to be held to that same level. LeBron came up short, just like Shaq and Kobe before him, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[dhsilv2]

Jordan would likely be a top 5 player if he played today, but I doubt anyone would consider him the GOAT. The 90s sucked compared to today's league.

Jordan won titles in the ‘90’s with Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Ray Allen, KG etc in the league and all those guys won titles with Lebron in the league. So Lebron was getting his ass handed to him by ‘90’s players but go on with your anti 90’s rant. Enthrall me with your acumen

I dont want to get deep into this debate but that is a hilariously stupid list.

Jordans final year Duncan was a rookie, Ray Allen a sophmore, Kobe was a teenager, KG in his 3rd year. Shaq was the oldest at 25 and he did basically all his winning before Lebron was even in the league.

Let us not forget that this was one of the weakest eras in nba history. Expansion plus from 99-02 the drafts were just weak and to compound it, so many young guys were coming in just completely not ready to play, so even guys like Rashard Lewis who ended up with a nice career his first allstar season was 7 years in.

Even going further back, 4th best guy from 97 draft was what, Derek Anderson? 96 was a loaded draft. But 95 was KG and Rasheed followed by...Brent Barry, Jerry Stackhouse and Damon Stoudamire for who was 3rd best? Oh or Michael Finley (all time bad defender). These weren't by any means terrible drafts but it wasn't an era with a lot of quality guys coming in. Many of the bigger names were volume guys who weren't very good at it.

[shi-woo]

I’m not sure where you’re getting this idea that LeBron avoided great teams when his finals competition is far superior to what Jordan had to face. It’s funny that Jordan’s never been able to beat superior teams. LeBron on the other hand has two finals wins as the underdog, upset the pistons in 07 via the greatest playoff performance of all time, and pulled off the rare feat of advancing to the finals in 18 while beating every single team with a greater SRS rating than his. But yeah, sure, LeBron was the one who avoided facing great teams, not Jordan.

You're a LeBron fan and you don't even know what his greatest playoff performance is.

It's not game 5 vs the Pistons.

And what do you think his greatest playoff performance is?

I mean game 6 against Boston essentially saved his career narrative So you kind of have to go with that even if the Pistons game was more impressive. Heat don't win that game the way they did, with LeBron playing the way he did after that finals loss, and it was over for him in terms of his place in history. That was literally the definition of a career defining performance

[Marrrcuss]

Why is the hate from Dallas fans so damn intense for Bron? You won the series that is most talked about every damn day. You get to gloat about that shyt damn near every day as thats how often its referenced. Sit back and enjoy, damn.

Likely because people claim Lebron choked vs giving credit to the team and coaching staff for the work they did to actually stop him? When people claim a player "choked" it's the most disrespectful thing you can say to the other team.

While your post makes sense and is logical, the average sports fan isnt, lol. Its probably something else

[dhsilv2]

Why is the hate from Dallas fans so damn intense for Bron? You won the series that is most talked about every damn day. You get to gloat about that shyt damn near every day as thats how often its referenced. Sit back and enjoy, damn.

Likely because people claim Lebron choked vs giving credit to the team and coaching staff for the work they did to actually stop him? When people claim a player "choked" it's the most disrespectful thing you can say to the other team.

While your post makes sense and is logical, the average sports fan isnt, lol. Its probably something else

Nah Cuban went on that trash morning show on ESPN to hammer that point home. So even casual mav's fans likely are sour about that, because it was brought brutally to their attention.

[Iwasawitness]

You're a LeBron fan and you don't even know what his greatest playoff performance is.

It's not game 5 vs the Pistons.

And what do you think his greatest playoff performance is?

I mean game 6 against Boston essentially saved his career narrative So you kind of have to go with that even if the Pistons game was more impressive. Heat don't win that game the way they did, with LeBron playing the way he did after that finals loss, and it was over for him in terms of his place in history. That was literally the definition of a career defining performance

I have that performance at number 3. To me, gave 5 against the Pistons is the greatest for a multitude of reasons. LeBron was only 22 at the time, the difficulty of the shots he was hitting were insane, Pistons were still a very good defensive team (no where close to what they were during the Larry Brown days but still very good), and we have to keep in mind as well what kind of team LeBron was playing on at the time. Very limited spacing, no consistent offensive options to help him, LeBron just had to legit carry his team on his back and propel them to an unexpected and very much well earned victory.

[Marrrcuss]

And what do you think his greatest playoff performance is?

I mean game 6 against Boston essentially saved his career narrative So you kind of have to go with that even if the Pistons game was more impressive. Heat don't win that game the way they did, with LeBron playing the way he did after that finals loss, and it was over for him in terms of his place in history. That was literally the definition of a career defining performance

I have that performance at number 3. To me, gave 5 against the Pistons is the greatest for a multitude of reasons. LeBron was only 22 at the time, the difficulty of the shots he was hitting were insane, Pistons were still a very good defensive team (no where close to what they were during the Larry Brown days but still very good), and we have to keep in mind as well what kind of team LeBron was playing on at the time. Very limited spacing, no consistent offensive options to help him, LeBron just had to legit carry his team on his back and propel them to an unexpected and very much well earned victory.

I get it. ESPN made such a huge deal about game 6 BEFORE the game so they had to make a big deal afterwards to make up for it.

Steven A and the boys already knew miami would lose and predicted how it would affect "his legacy" and what should happen next.

[IG2]

This isn't complicated. MJ's the GOAT because he has the best combination of numbers, accolades and team accomplishments in NBA history. We can talk more about why he was able to achieve those things. If you've watched him beyond just YT highlights, The Last Dance and talking heads (which most haven't), then even that's simple. MJ's the only player in NBA history who combined absolutely elite athleticism with elite skill level. He had no weaknesses on the court and did pretty much everything at a high level. Strictly from a basketball standpoint, he had more ability than anybody else. You give a guy like that top-level intangibles too (competitiveness, work ethic, IQ & leadership skills), then it's very easy to see why he had more success than everybody else.

[Marrrcuss]

This isn't complicated. MJ's the GOAT because he has the best combination of numbers, accolades and team accomplishments in NBA history. We can talk more about why he was able to achieve those things. If you've watched him beyond just YT highlights, The Last Dance and talking heads (which most haven't), then even that's simple. MJ's the only player in NBA history who combined absolutely elite athleticism with elite skill level. He had no weaknesses on the court and did pretty much everything at a high level. Strictly from a basketball standpoint, he had more ability than anybody else. You give a guy like that top-level intangibles too (competitiveness, work ethic, IQ & leadership skills), then it's very easy to see why he had more success than everybody else.

Intangibles are where things always get skewed. He was so off the charts athletically that some folks started adding things he wasnt, like a good leader. Him and Kobe both sucked as leaders. IQ is debatable but nothing he did supports it outside of just playing at a high level. There are no stories of him breaking down plays or being highly cerebral, but he was so good that we assume he was smart.
I think damn near all players have a high work ethic, outside of the shaq types.
To sum it up, Im just not a fan of using intangibles as justification.

I guess this goes to my overall belief that we will all have different criteria for what should be considered.

[NZB2323]

Jordan won titles in the ‘90’s with Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Ray Allen, KG etc in the league and all those guys won titles with Lebron in the league. So Lebron was getting his ass handed to him by ‘90’s players but go on with your anti 90’s rant. Enthrall me with your acumen

I dont want to get deep into this debate but that is a hilariously stupid list.

Jordans final year Duncan was a rookie, Ray Allen a sophmore, Kobe was a teenager, KG in his 3rd year. Shaq was the oldest at 25 and he did basically all his winning before Lebron was even in the league.

Let us not forget that this was one of the weakest eras in nba history. Expansion plus from 99-02 the drafts were just weak and to compound it, so many young guys were coming in just completely not ready to play, so even guys like Rashard Lewis who ended up with a nice career his first allstar season was 7 years in.

Even going further back, 4th best guy from 97 draft was what, Derek Anderson? 96 was a loaded draft. But 95 was KG and Rasheed followed by...Brent Barry, Jerry Stackhouse and Damon Stoudamire for who was 3rd best? Oh or Michael Finley (all time bad defender). These weren't by any means terrible drafts but it wasn't an era with a lot of quality guys coming in. Many of the bigger names were volume guys who weren't very good at it.

Not a great defensive player, but Finley wasn’t all-time bad. He’s better than Glenn Robinson, Carlos Boozer, ect. He had an on/off of +12.1 in 2003 and +8.5 in 01.

The 84 draft and 96 draft are arguably the 2 best draft classes of all time. Both of them produced 3 MVPs, plus a bunch of all-stars.

85-98 had Magic, Bird, McHale, the Bad Boys Pistons, Wilkins, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Payton, Miller, Ewing, Shaq, Penny, Hakeem, Robinson, Mutumbo, Mourning, Shawn Kemp, Mullin, Drexler, Richmond, Pippen, Rodman, Hardaway, ect.

I also don’t know why people call the 90s the expansion era. Yeah, the NBA added 6 teams while Jordan was playing, but they added 9 while Kareem was playing. Why does no one call the 80s the expansion era?

[dhsilv2]

I dont want to get deep into this debate but that is a hilariously stupid list.

Jordans final year Duncan was a rookie, Ray Allen a sophmore, Kobe was a teenager, KG in his 3rd year. Shaq was the oldest at 25 and he did basically all his winning before Lebron was even in the league.

Let us not forget that this was one of the weakest eras in nba history. Expansion plus from 99-02 the drafts were just weak and to compound it, so many young guys were coming in just completely not ready to play, so even guys like Rashard Lewis who ended up with a nice career his first allstar season was 7 years in.

Even going further back, 4th best guy from 97 draft was what, Derek Anderson? 96 was a loaded draft. But 95 was KG and Rasheed followed by...Brent Barry, Jerry Stackhouse and Damon Stoudamire for who was 3rd best? Oh or Michael Finley (all time bad defender). These weren't by any means terrible drafts but it wasn't an era with a lot of quality guys coming in. Many of the bigger names were volume guys who weren't very good at it.

Not a great defensive player, but Finley wasn’t all-time bad. He’s better than Glenn Robinson, Carlos Boozer, ect. He had an on/off of +12.1 in 2003 and +8.5 in 01.

The 84 draft and 96 draft are arguably the 2 best draft classes of all time. Both of them produced 3 MVPs, plus a bunch of all-stars.

85-98 had Magic, Bird, McHale, the Bad Boys Pistons, Wilkins, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Payton, Miller, Ewing, Shaq, Penny, Hakeem, Robinson, Mutumbo, Mourning, Shawn Kemp, Mullin, Drexler, Richmond, Pippen, Rodman, Hardaway, ect.

I also don’t know why people call the 90s the expansion era. Yeah, the NBA added 6 teams while Jordan was playing, but they added 9 while Kareem was playing. Why does no one call the 80s the expansion era?

If you want to use +/- here's 1997-2014 DRAPM

https://web.archive.org/web/20201024055550/https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-defensive-rapm

1,245th ranked defender over that sample.

As for the 80's. I can't tell if you're wanting to include or exclude the ABA merger. But the merger given it wasn't all ABA teams is why that generally doesn't get the same stigma. Meanwhile, I didn't bring up the late 80's expansions. Only the one in 96 where it became pretty apparent the league was struggling with talent and we then, other than the outstanding 96 class, had not just a mix of bad drafts. But as I pointed out, the high school to pro era where guys came into the league terribly unprepared and teams weren't staffed to address that. The two compounded and made that 97-05 era REALLY bad.

[MavsDirk41]

It's pretty silly to claim it's backtracking when I've explained it in dozens of threads, including ones you have participated in. I guess this just proves you don't read my posts, which means there's no point replying to you.

And its already been proven to you that when Jordan shot more 3s his 3 point percentage increased or he was more efficient. He only averaged 1.7 3 point attempts per game for his career, but the seasons in which he had the most 3 point field goal attempts were his highest 3 point percentage:

89/90
3 attempts per game
.38%

92/93
3 attempts per game
.35%

95/96
3.2 attempts per game
.43%

96/97
3 attempts per game
.37%

People have told you this before but you continue to ignore facts. It took me 5 minutes to gather this information, maybe in the future, you do the same;

- research
- facts

1) Scrub the seasonds with the shorter line.
2) I called Jordan a 'meh' 3pt shooter, not a nonexistent 3pt shooter. If Jordan had no 3 at all I wouldn't be calling him a top 5 player today
3) back then teams took the 3 lightly. When Jordan was shooting it he was basically open. Today the defense is entirely focused on stopping 3s; SGA is not taking wide open 3s. It's the difference between a Herb Joned type and an actual 3pt shooter. Herb has a good % this year, but it's because he only takes it when he's wide open
4) Jordan's overall percentages in non-shortened seasons do not suggest he'd be a good 3pt shooter today.

Astonishly I was already aware if these facts, they've been discussed in many threads I've posted in, including this one.

The nba shortened the 3 point line during the 94/95 season:

Jordan 3 point shooting prior to this occurring:

89/90 season
3 attempts per game at 38%

92/93 season
3 attempts per game at 35%

91 eastern conference finals
3/5 for 60%
91 nba finals
2/4 for 50%

92 eastern conference finals
3/6 for 50%
92 nba finals
12/28 for 43%

93 eastern conference finals
10/25 for 40%
93 nba finals
10/25 for 40%


Jordan was not a 3 point shooter like most star players werent back then, but statistics show that his efficiency increased when his volume of 3 point attempts increased. If he played today he would probably average 3-4 attempts per game at around 35% to 36%. Again, you are wrong and you are changing nobody’s opinion on here pal-o.