Dejounte Murray 44 FGA and the game winner - "I don’t wanna take that many shots, but I know Kobe would be proud of me"

[dhsilv2]

Meanwhile Kobe's scoring efficiency (104 TS+) was about as good as Larry Bird's (105 TS+). The hate and disrespect is insane.

I have never truly grokked how people thought Kobe was inefficient outside of the Finals. He had some shot selection issues, but he in his prime he was pretty consistently 2 or 3 percent above league average efficiency. And generally on pretty substantial volume, too. There are things to say about Kobe, but calling him an inefficient scorer certainly isn't one of them. He was one of the best scorers we'd seen to date in the league.

Because people want to compare him to MJ who was a bit more efficient than that. Kobe wasn't inefficient among volume scorers, just when people started to push him into the Jordan debates. And as we all know...Pippen wouldn't have even stayed in the league without MJ willing him to success.

[Frank Dux]

Why on earth is Murray taking 44 shots?

[buzzkilloton]

Murrays been balling out since Traes been out. Hawks lucky they didnt trade him. Now they can offer up Trae for a likely bigger deal and keep Murray.

[dhsilv2]

Why on earth is Murray taking 44 shots?

Well it went to OT and he played roughly 47 minutes. So there's that.

[Pointgod]

Why on earth is Murray taking 44 shots?

That’s a very good question!

[JonFromVA]

Meanwhile Kobe's scoring efficiency (104 TS+) was about as good as Larry Bird's (105 TS+). The hate and disrespect is insane.

I have never truly grokked how people thought Kobe was inefficient outside of the Finals. He had some shot selection issues, but he in his prime he was pretty consistently 2 or 3 percent above league average efficiency. And generally on pretty substantial volume, too. There are things to say about Kobe, but calling him an inefficient scorer certainly isn't one of them. He was one of the best scorers we'd seen to date in the league.

Not everyone believes TS+ is the right way to look at efficiency ... I mean Kobe's career best TS% was just 57.8% and even then while he was firing up nearly 2x more shots than anyone else on the Lakers, his TS% was just 7th best on the team. If we care to ignore FTA's, his eFG% was 10th on the team.

At least Kobe's TS% never dipped to 50% or under like Iverson, so, there's that.

[Ball4life32]

Why on earth is Murray taking 44 shots?

That’s a very good question!

Big reason is Hawks had Trae, Jalen Johnson, Bey, Okongwu, Bufkin not playing so he had a heavy work load plus it went to OT.

[dhsilv2]

Meanwhile Kobe's scoring efficiency (104 TS+) was about as good as Larry Bird's (105 TS+). The hate and disrespect is insane.

I have never truly grokked how people thought Kobe was inefficient outside of the Finals. He had some shot selection issues, but he in his prime he was pretty consistently 2 or 3 percent above league average efficiency. And generally on pretty substantial volume, too. There are things to say about Kobe, but calling him an inefficient scorer certainly isn't one of them. He was one of the best scorers we'd seen to date in the league.

Not everyone believes TS+ is the right way to look at efficiency ... I mean Kobe's career best TS% was just 57.8% and even then while he was firing up nearly 2x more shots than anyone else on the Lakers, his TS% was just 7th best on the team. If we care to ignore FTA's, his eFG% was 10th on the team.

At least Kobe's TS% never dipped to 50% or under like Iverson, so, there's that.

What's the reason to not use TS%+? And which year are you looking at? You quoted career TS%.

[tsherkin]

In his prime (01-10) his TS+ was 106, which means he was 6% better than league average. That is very good.

He never topped +3.5% rTS, which is actual player TS%.

There's no reason to use rTS when TS+ is available.

Sure there is. TS+ tells part of the story. rTS tells another. Both are relevant.

All those "shot selection" issues and he still finished with the fourth highest inflation adjusted scoring rate ever while posting almost the same career scoring efficiency as Larry Bird.

Never came close to peak Bird, but yes, he was still very efficient on high volume, absolutely.

Because people want to compare him to MJ who was a bit more efficient than that. Kobe wasn't inefficient among volume scorers, just when people started to push him into the Jordan debates. And as we all know...Pippen wouldn't have even stayed in the league without MJ willing him to success.

Yeah, but they never couch the term "inefficient" or make it relative to anyone else. They call him flatly inefficient, which isn't accurate. And in his 35 ppg season, he was approximately as efficient relative to league average as was Jordan during his 37 ppg season, so there is also that. Peak Jordan on slightly lower volume absolutely obliterated him, of course, but there are other factors in play there as well.

Not everyone believes TS+ is the right way to look at efficiency ... I mean Kobe's career best TS% was just 57.8%

"Just" 57.8%? That was quite good at the time it happened. Just because league average has shifted over the years doesn't mean we shouldn't recognize achievement inside the environment in which the achievement was made.

[MrGoat]

OT but was anyone else watching the game on LP and saw the CeeLo Green halftime show? I wasn't intending on watching it but heard all the F bombs from another room and came back to tune in. Was shocked he was doing that at what is normally a family friendly event

What was he doing... singing and swearing?

Well, I've only barely heard of the guy because I am only familiar with one of his songs. But it is this song so that might answer your question...

Watch on YouTube

[dhsilv2]

Because people want to compare him to MJ who was a bit more efficient than that. Kobe wasn't inefficient among volume scorers, just when people started to push him into the Jordan debates. And as we all know...Pippen wouldn't have even stayed in the league without MJ willing him to success.

Yeah, but they never couch the term "inefficient" or make it relative to anyone else. They call him flatly inefficient, which isn't accurate. And in his 35 ppg season, he was approximately as efficient relative to league average as was Jordan during his 37 ppg season, so there is also that. Peak Jordan on slightly lower volume absolutely obliterated him, of course, but there are other factors in play there as well.

Like I said, Pippen woulda been out of the league at 25 without MJ if you listen to these guys. It's not rational...

[tsherkin]

Because people want to compare him to MJ who was a bit more efficient than that. Kobe wasn't inefficient among volume scorers, just when people started to push him into the Jordan debates. And as we all know...Pippen wouldn't have even stayed in the league without MJ willing him to success.

Yeah, but they never couch the term "inefficient" or make it relative to anyone else. They call him flatly inefficient, which isn't accurate. And in his 35 ppg season, he was approximately as efficient relative to league average as was Jordan during his 37 ppg season, so there is also that. Peak Jordan on slightly lower volume absolutely obliterated him, of course, but there are other factors in play there as well.

Like I said, Pippen woulda been out of the league at 25 without MJ if you listen to these guys. It's not rational...

There is that, yes.

[JonFromVA]

"Just" 57.8%? That was quite good at the time it happened. Just because league average has shifted over the years doesn't mean we shouldn't recognize achievement inside the environment in which the achievement was made.

Sure, 57.8 was decent, but like I said it was his career high on a team with multiple players that would have scored with even higher efficiency if he could have have cut back on his contested jumpers and moved the ball or set them up directly.

When we just level the playing field with something like TS+, we're ignoring cause and effect. In other words, was the lower TS% in that era an effect of the era? Or were there just a lot of players trying to "Be like Mike" causing the drop in TS%.

I mean how long have fans let alone teams had access to shooting % .vs. distance? It's not exactly rocket science to realize certain shots will have a higher expected value *if* you can generate them.

[JonFromVA]

I have never truly grokked how people thought Kobe was inefficient outside of the Finals. He had some shot selection issues, but he in his prime he was pretty consistently 2 or 3 percent above league average efficiency. And generally on pretty substantial volume, too. There are things to say about Kobe, but calling him an inefficient scorer certainly isn't one of them. He was one of the best scorers we'd seen to date in the league.

Not everyone believes TS+ is the right way to look at efficiency ... I mean Kobe's career best TS% was just 57.8% and even then while he was firing up nearly 2x more shots than anyone else on the Lakers, his TS% was just 7th best on the team. If we care to ignore FTA's, his eFG% was 10th on the team.

At least Kobe's TS% never dipped to 50% or under like Iverson, so, there's that.

What's the reason to not use TS%+? And which year are you looking at? You quoted career TS%.

My bad, I was using his 2nd best TS% season as my example from '07/'08 and cross wired the numbers in my post. He was at 57.6% that season and set his career high of 58% in '06/'07 when an argument could be made that Kobe shooting was that team's best option. I don't take that for granted, either, though because you have to first assume he was generating as many good 3pt looks for the team's better 3pt shooters as possible.

As for reasons, like I said in my post to tsherkin, we have to be sure about cause and effect before leveling the playing field.

[UglyBugBall]

Meanwhile Kobe's scoring efficiency (104 TS+) was about as good as Larry Bird's (105 TS+). The hate and disrespect is insane.

I have never truly grokked how people thought Kobe was inefficient outside of the Finals. He had some shot selection issues, but he in his prime he was pretty consistently 2 or 3 percent above league average efficiency. And generally on pretty substantial volume, too. There are things to say about Kobe, but calling him an inefficient scorer certainly isn't one of them. He was one of the best scorers we'd seen to date in the league.

In his prime (01-10) his TS+ was 106, which means he was 6% better than league average. That is very good.

There's no reason to use rTS when TS+ is available.

All those "shot selection" issues and he still finished with the fourth highest inflation adjusted scoring rate ever while posting almost the same career scoring efficiency as Larry Bird.

Not sure why you're looking at TS here. It includes the value of free throws and increases the efficiency of 3s. Look at his FG%. It was not great.

[dhsilv2]

Not everyone believes TS+ is the right way to look at efficiency ... I mean Kobe's career best TS% was just 57.8% and even then while he was firing up nearly 2x more shots than anyone else on the Lakers, his TS% was just 7th best on the team. If we care to ignore FTA's, his eFG% was 10th on the team.

At least Kobe's TS% never dipped to 50% or under like Iverson, so, there's that.

What's the reason to not use TS%+? And which year are you looking at? You quoted career TS%.

My bad, I was using his 2nd best TS% season as my example from '07/'08 and cross wired the numbers in my post. He was at 57.6% that season and set his career high of 58% in '06/'07 when an argument could be made that Kobe shooting was that team's best option. I don't take that for granted, either, though because you have to first assume he was generating as many good 3pt looks for the team's better 3pt shooters as possible.

As for reasons, like I said in my post to tsherkin, we have to be sure about cause and effect before leveling the playing field.

Cool. no real comment, at least I get the view.

[baldur]

you should score 65 points just like jalen brunson has today, not 40 points, if you attempt 44, the guy should be kidding himself, not anyone else.

[Mr Peanut]

OT but was anyone else watching the game on LP and saw the CeeLo Green halftime show? I wasn't intending on watching it but heard all the F bombs from another room and came back to tune in. Was shocked he was doing that at what is normally a family friendly event

What was he doing... singing and swearing?

Well, I've only barely heard of the guy because I am only familiar with one of his songs. But it is this song so that might answer your question...

Watch on YouTube

Yep he was singing this uncensored and flipped the bird at the crowd on one occasion.

Video: https://streamable.com/jg874e

[ibehary]

The Celtics lost that game largely in part because Mazzulla had them defend Vit Krejci in the corners like he is Drazen Petrovic. I promise you can leave him there, send a body at Dejounte and win every single time with 80% effort. You don’t have to play every single alpha scorer straight up just because you have Jrue, White and Jaylen on the floor. Like what is this world. If the Celtics lose in the finals it will be because of something like this, Jamal Murray or Shai going nuclear because god forbid you leave Aaron Gordon or Josh Giddey alone in the corner for more than half a beat

[tsherkin]

Sure, 57.8 was decent, but like I said it was his career high on a team with multiple players that would have scored with even higher efficiency if he could have have cut back on his contested jumpers and moved the ball or set them up directly.

Sure, he could have been a little better than he was if he'd cut down on some of his dumber shots. But We should still be crediting that 57.6% (not 57.8) in 2008. That was his MVP year. He was 3.6% above league average, while scoring 28.3 ppg and he did move the ball pretty well inside that offense. He had great synergy with Pau and remained a very low-turnover player.

I guess my point was that 57.6% was still very good, even if he could have been a little better in that regard.