What has Jayson Tatum done that justifies him being ahead of LeBron on All NBA again?

[Godymas]

COUNTING STATS

Jayson Tatum: 27 points 8 rebounds 5 assists 47-37-83 splits

LeBron James: 25 points 7 rebounds 8 assists 53-40-75 splits

Tatum: 1 steal and .6 blocks

LeBron: 1.2 steals and .6 blocks

Tatum: 2 assists to 1 TOV

LeBron: 2.4 assists to 1 TOV


ADVANCED STATS

Jayson Tatum 5.2 BPM 4.4 VORP .192 WS/48 9.8 WS 22.6 PER 60.5% TS

LeBron James 6.1 BPM 4.5 VORP .153 WS/48 7.0 WS 23.1 PER 62.1% TS

Now the only numbers that Tatum beats LeBron in are he is up 1 rebound per game, he scores 2 more points per game, and he is slightly higher in the win share column.

HOWEVER, I think his win share stats are inflated by being on such a dominant team.

But All NBA is not a team performance award, it's an individual player award. It's "who was the best basketball player from a skill and execution PoV"

LeBron scores 2 less points but he has 3 more assists per game, he does this with a better Assist to TOV ratio, everyone KNOWS LeBron is a better playmaker than Tatum.

He's more efficient than Tatum, he shoots the ball better than Tatum. LeBron has a +9.2 On/Off number, Tatum is just +.9 because his team is THAT MUCH BETTER.

Tatum has worse efficiency with a higher usage than LeBron, Tatum plays with better spacing than LeBron, Tatum plays with a much deeper team than LeBron, Tatum has much better defenders on the court as him than LeBron, the list goes on.

Yes, Anthony Davis is a better teammate than anyone in Boston, HOWEVER, every other aspect of the Celtics roster dominates what the Lakers have this year and yet despite all of this LeBron is CLEARLY a better pure BASKETBALL player at age 39 than Jayson Tatum is today in his prime.

[MessiahUjiri]

Don’t midcurve the stats.

Celtics are literally the best team in the NBA.

Does winning count?

[Godymas]

Don’t midcurve the stats.

Celtics are literally the best team in the NBA.

Does winning count?

no it doesn’t count because winning is a TEAM stat and the All NBA teams are awarded for individual skill level.

SGA was 1st team All NBA last year on a 40 win team.

Steph Curry made 1st team and missed the playoffs.

[Mavrelous]

Don’t midcurve the stats.

Celtics are literally the best team in the NBA.

Does winning count?

no it doesn’t count because winning is a TEAM stat and the All NBA teams are awarded for individual skill level.

SGA was 1st team All NBA last year on a 40 win team.

Steph Curry made 1st team and missed the playoffs.

It's a trade off between stats and winning, when the stats are very close, you favour winning and not slight edge in stats.
There is no fixed formula, so it's subjective where the line is drawn.

[rapstarter]

I think the Celtics are an even better team with LeBron instead of Tatum, but award season's always rewarded winning teams.

[TheNG]

What has LeBron James done that justifies him being ahead of Sabonis on All NBA?

[GSWFan1994]

Tatum is the best player on the team with the best record, that's the reason, it's very simple.

[dhsilv2]

COUNTING STATS

Jayson Tatum: 27 points 8 rebounds 5 assists 47-37-83 splits

LeBron James: 25 points 7 rebounds 8 assists 53-40-75 splits

Tatum: 1 steal and .6 blocks

LeBron: 1.2 steals and .6 blocks

Tatum: 2 assists to 1 TOV

LeBron: 2.4 assists to 1 TOV


ADVANCED STATS

Jayson Tatum 5.2 BPM 4.4 VORP .192 WS/48 9.8 WS 22.6 PER 60.5% TS

LeBron James 6.1 BPM 4.5 VORP .153 WS/48 7.0 WS 23.1 PER 62.1% TS

Now the only numbers that Tatum beats LeBron in are he is up 1 rebound per game, he scores 2 more points per game, and he is slightly higher in the win share column.

HOWEVER, I think his win share stats are inflated by being on such a dominant team.

But All NBA is not a team performance award, it's an individual player award. It's "who was the best basketball player from a skill and execution PoV"

LeBron scores 2 less points but he has 3 more assists per game, he does this with a better Assist to TOV ratio, everyone KNOWS LeBron is a better playmaker than Tatum.

He's more efficient than Tatum, he shoots the ball better than Tatum. LeBron has a +9.2 On/Off number, Tatum is just +.9 because his team is THAT MUCH BETTER.

Tatum has worse efficiency with a higher usage than LeBron, Tatum plays with better spacing than LeBron, Tatum plays with a much deeper team than LeBron, Tatum has much better defenders on the court as him than LeBron, the list goes on.

Yes, Anthony Davis is a better teammate than anyone in Boston, HOWEVER, every other aspect of the Celtics roster dominates what the Lakers have this year and yet despite all of this LeBron is CLEARLY a better pure BASKETBALL player at age 39 than Jayson Tatum is today in his prime.

Advanced stats

LEBRON WAR - 6.20 vs 5.30
EPM EW - 13.0 vs 12.6

So the more "advanced" our metric the stronger the case for Tatum. Plus, all else even close, I don't mind team success being a deciding factor for a voter. And it's close enough.

[Woodsanity]

Tatum is a beneficiary of being on stacked teams his entire career sadly.

[nate33]

The answer here is defense. Tatum is an extremely good defender night in and night out. Lebron conserves all of his energy on defense, typically guarding the opposition's worst front court player. Lebron never closes out on shooters either. Lebron can still play good D in spurts, but those spurts are few and far between. (I'm not hating. It's reasonable for a 39-year-old with such an offensive load to conserve energy. But it does affect the Lakers' defense.)

[scrabbarista]

First-best player on the #1 team.

Second-best player on the #14 team.

EDIT: And that's being kind to the Lakers. By SRS they're #18.

[Jta444]

Don’t midcurve the stats.

Celtics are literally the best team in the NBA.

Does winning count?

no it doesn’t count because winning is a TEAM stat and the All NBA teams are awarded for individual skill level.

SGA was 1st team All NBA last year on a 40 win team.

Steph Curry made 1st team and missed the playoffs.

Typical Bron stans, when another player wins it’s the team, but when Lebron wins it’s all because he carried. Dude how can you say that when Lebron has stacked the deck more than any other star this millenia. Before you get to me on stats, not everything shows up on the stat sheets. Klutch media has brainwashed all of us to thinking it’s all about stats. During the time of Magic Bird Jordan nobody cared about all these stats it’s all about winning. LeStat is smart because people will look at stats and say wow he’s the greatest but does defense show up on the stat sheet? Tatum got more gravity which opens up the floor for his team and he plays defense.

[scrabbarista]

The answer here is defense. Tatum is an extremely good defender night in and night out. Lebron conserves all of his energy on defense, typically guarding the opposition's worst front court player. Lebron never closes out on shooters either. Lebron can still play good D in spurts, but those spurts are few and far between. (I'm not hating. It's reasonable for a 39-year-old with such an offensive load to conserve energy. But it does affect the Lakers' defense.)

James has also rested five or six back to backs and played the weaker opponent every time.

So, he's conserving his energy by resting, juicing his box score by playing weaker opponents (and by resting), and juicing his impact numbers by leaving his teammates to deal with the better teams while he dominates the tankastic opponents.

Again, not saying it isn't smart. Just saying it's not All-NBA.

[art_tatum]

Lebronnnnn James
Lebroooooon James
Lebroooooooooooon James

[Marrrcuss]

Meh, Im a Bron stan and i get it. Tatum is first team and Bron will be 2nd or 3rd.

[shi-woo]

This logic is so flawed, and you know it Besides the fact that James hasn't been the defender that Tatum is currently for well over a decade now, he's also just playing better basketball.

I love this type of logic though. It means Jerry Stackhouse should have won MVP in 2001 over AI. I mean Stack averaged 30/4/5 on 45/45/85 whereas Iverson only averaged 31/4/5 on 42/32/82. Funny how you don't hear many people talking about how Stackhouse got robbed, and questioning why he isn't part of the all decade team.

All-NBA is an individual award, sure, but at some point you need to be putting up more than numbers. People don't care when Stackhouse scores 30 for the trash Pistons that won 20 games. Putting up 30 on a team that is top of the conference and goes to the finals just hit different and means more

[Godymas]

What has LeBron James done that justifies him being ahead of Sabonis on All NBA?

literally unrelated, no one says Sabonis doesn't deserve All NBA ITT

[Godymas]

This logic is so flawed, and you know it Besides the fact that James hasn't been the defender that Tatum is currently for well over a decade now, he's also just playing better basketball.

I love this type of logic though. It means Jerry Stackhouse should have won MVP in 2001 over AI. I mean Stack averaged 30/4/5 on 45/45/85 whereas Iverson only averaged 31/4/5 on 42/32/82. Funny how you don't hear many people talking about how Stackhouse got robbed, and questioning why he isn't part of the all decade team.

All-NBA is an individual award, sure, but at some point you need to be putting up more than numbers. People don't care when Stackhouse scores 30 for the trash Pistons that won 20 games. Putting up 30 on a team that is top of the conference and goes to the finals just hit different and means more

MVP is always a winning driven award but in recent years the winning has been de-emphasized when a player was transcendent.

Stackhouse should have been All NBA in 2001 100%

[Godymas]

The answer here is defense. Tatum is an extremely good defender night in and night out. Lebron conserves all of his energy on defense, typically guarding the opposition's worst front court player. Lebron never closes out on shooters either. Lebron can still play good D in spurts, but those spurts are few and far between. (I'm not hating. It's reasonable for a 39-year-old with such an offensive load to conserve energy. But it does affect the Lakers' defense.)

it's a lot easier for Tatum to play defense when he plays next to the best defensive backcourt in the league in Jrue Holiday and Derek White

[cupcakesnake]

There is a massive gap in terms of defensive performance between Lebron and Tatum this year. It's not something we can really capture statistically.

Lebron very intelligent with his defense and capable of making big stops and helping the team scheme. At his age though, it's clear there's a lot of energy conservation going into his defensive strategy, and he's not longer capable of making long rotations. He's a master of short rotations, it's just really important for Lebron's defense for the Lakers to maintain that tight shell around the basket. One of the reasons the Lakers are good at paint defense and horrible at 3-point defense is that Lebron can't consistently close out.

Tatum on the other hand, is just B+ at absolutely everything on defense. One of the most solid all-around defensive forwards in existence. Doesn't have a huge super power (like an OG or a Herb), but can guard almost any kind of player while also being very disruptive off the ball and capable of paint protection and any kind of rotation.