NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 5: So who's winning MVP? )

[ChipotleWest]

If you throw Giannis and Luka in there as well - I’m with you-

The next 3 are close to each other this year but no where neeeeaaarrrrr Jokic

Luka has not had a better year than SGA
SGA has not separated himself from Luka
Giannis has not been better than or worse than Luka and SGA

Not everyone sees it the same way as you. Luka and SGA are just as deserving of the MVP as Jokic. You can point to this obscure stat or that obscure stat as reason why Jokic should win but the reality is most people view these 3 as extremely close in the MVP race. All three are deserving.

You can point to the most talked about and used stats out there to push for Jokic. You don't need anything obsure. That said...jokic and sga had the same team records where it's pretty clearly we all agree SGA has the better teammates. And luka doesn't have much worse and didn't finish as well.

You're saying Luka doesn't have much worse teammates which happened at the trade deadline yet punishing him for not having as many wins for not having them before the trade deadline. The Mavs were not that great before the trade deadline. They were starting Maxi and Grant Williams who was awful in Dallas after the first month. Both that and the substantial injuries they suffered including Kyrie missing 20 something games is a very good explanation for why they don't have as many wins. If they had the post trade deadline team with health all season they win 60 games if you stretch out their wins/losses since the trade deadline over the season. I'm sure someone will say that's what ifs and it's a full season award etc.... that's fine, but Luka is being punished for having a worse team and he had no drop off from then to now.

Murray + MPJ + Gordon is way better than what the Mavs had before the trade deadline, and Denver has good role players too. Caldwell-Pope gives them 10 ppg and defense for example. I'm not even sure who the #3 guy was in Dallas before the trades. Just a bunch of average players lumped together.

[dhsilv2]

Not everyone sees it the same way as you. Luka and SGA are just as deserving of the MVP as Jokic. You can point to this obscure stat or that obscure stat as reason why Jokic should win but the reality is most people view these 3 as extremely close in the MVP race. All three are deserving.

You can point to the most talked about and used stats out there to push for Jokic. You don't need anything obsure. That said...jokic and sga had the same team records where it's pretty clearly we all agree SGA has the better teammates. And luka doesn't have much worse and didn't finish as well.

However the Mavs had a far worse luck with the injuries this season. But for some reason the media doesn't talk about that much if at all.

ok...........doesn't change anything thought...

[dhsilv2]

Not everyone sees it the same way as you. Luka and SGA are just as deserving of the MVP as Jokic. You can point to this obscure stat or that obscure stat as reason why Jokic should win but the reality is most people view these 3 as extremely close in the MVP race. All three are deserving.

You can point to the most talked about and used stats out there to push for Jokic. You don't need anything obsure. That said...jokic and sga had the same team records where it's pretty clearly we all agree SGA has the better teammates. And luka doesn't have much worse and didn't finish as well.

You're saying Luka doesn't have much worse teammates which happened at the trade deadline yet punishing him for not having as many wins for not having them before the trade deadline. The Mavs were not that great before the trade deadline. They were starting Maxi and Grant Williams who was awful in Dallas after the first month. Both that and the substantial injuries they suffered including Kyrie missing 20 something games is a very good explanation for why they don't have as many wins. If they had the post trade deadline team with health all season they win 60 games if you stretch out their wins/losses since the trade deadline over the season. I'm sure someone will say that's what ifs and it's a full season award etc.... that's fine, but Luka is being punished for having a worse team and he had no drop off from then to now.

Murray + MPJ + Gordon is way better than what the Mavs had before the trade deadline, and Denver has good role players too. Caldwell-Pope gives them 10 ppg and defense for example.

I love Luka...but this is jibberish. Luka is gonna get a lot of love and MVP's. But JOkic was the guy the last 4 yeas.

[ChipotleWest]

You can point to the most talked about and used stats out there to push for Jokic. You don't need anything obsure. That said...jokic and sga had the same team records where it's pretty clearly we all agree SGA has the better teammates. And luka doesn't have much worse and didn't finish as well.

You're saying Luka doesn't have much worse teammates which happened at the trade deadline yet punishing him for not having as many wins for not having them before the trade deadline. The Mavs were not that great before the trade deadline. They were starting Maxi and Grant Williams who was awful in Dallas after the first month. Both that and the substantial injuries they suffered including Kyrie missing 20 something games is a very good explanation for why they don't have as many wins. If they had the post trade deadline team with health all season they win 60 games if you stretch out their wins/losses since the trade deadline over the season. I'm sure someone will say that's what ifs and it's a full season award etc.... that's fine, but Luka is being punished for having a worse team and he had no drop off from then to now.

Murray + MPJ + Gordon is way better than what the Mavs had before the trade deadline, and Denver has good role players too. Caldwell-Pope gives them 10 ppg and defense for example.

I love Luka...but this is jibberish. Luka is gonna get a lot of love and MVP's. But JOkic was the guy the last 4 yeas.

You're calling it jibberish but my post was in reply to what YOU said. You said Luka doesn't have much worse teammates, clearly he did for over half the season before the trades. Who was the third best guy in Dallas before the trade deadline? Please give an answer so I can make fun of it. I see you're trying to weasel out of what you said and change the subject.

[hagredionis]

You can point to the most talked about and used stats out there to push for Jokic. You don't need anything obsure. That said...jokic and sga had the same team records where it's pretty clearly we all agree SGA has the better teammates. And luka doesn't have much worse and didn't finish as well.

However the Mavs had a far worse luck with the injuries this season. But for some reason the media doesn't talk about that much if at all.

ok...........doesn't change anything thought...

It doesn't change anything in the sense that the Media doesn't talk about that. But it should change it lot, you can't really compare the advanced stats of the guys if one guy plays like +900 minutes with his best lineup and the other only like 170.

[QPR]

However the Mavs had a far worse luck with the injuries this season. But for some reason the media doesn't talk about that much if at all.

ok...........doesn't change anything thought...

It doesn't change anything in the sense that the Media doesn't talk about that. But it should change it lot, you can't really compare the advanced stats of the guys if one guy plays like +900 minutes with his best lineup and the other only like 170.

What if the rest of the line up is so effective BECAUSE of that guy though?

[CobraCommander]

You can point to the most talked about and used stats out there to push for Jokic. You don't need anything obsure. That said...jokic and sga had the same team records where it's pretty clearly we all agree SGA has the better teammates. And luka doesn't have much worse and didn't finish as well.

You're saying Luka doesn't have much worse teammates which happened at the trade deadline yet punishing him for not having as many wins for not having them before the trade deadline. The Mavs were not that great before the trade deadline. They were starting Maxi and Grant Williams who was awful in Dallas after the first month. Both that and the substantial injuries they suffered including Kyrie missing 20 something games is a very good explanation for why they don't have as many wins. If they had the post trade deadline team with health all season they win 60 games if you stretch out their wins/losses since the trade deadline over the season. I'm sure someone will say that's what ifs and it's a full season award etc.... that's fine, but Luka is being punished for having a worse team and he had no drop off from then to now.

Murray + MPJ + Gordon is way better than what the Mavs had before the trade deadline, and Denver has good role players too. Caldwell-Pope gives them 10 ppg and defense for example.

I love Luka...but this is jibberish. Luka is gonna get a lot of love and MVP's. But JOkic was the guy the last 4 yeas.

One hundred %

To not give jokic the mvp this year will hurt his rightful claim to be in the same category as Duncan, mj, lebron and the other top 10 guys - yep

[kcbworth]

SGA for me

[dhsilv2]

You're saying Luka doesn't have much worse teammates which happened at the trade deadline yet punishing him for not having as many wins for not having them before the trade deadline. The Mavs were not that great before the trade deadline. They were starting Maxi and Grant Williams who was awful in Dallas after the first month. Both that and the substantial injuries they suffered including Kyrie missing 20 something games is a very good explanation for why they don't have as many wins. If they had the post trade deadline team with health all season they win 60 games if you stretch out their wins/losses since the trade deadline over the season. I'm sure someone will say that's what ifs and it's a full season award etc.... that's fine, but Luka is being punished for having a worse team and he had no drop off from then to now.

Murray + MPJ + Gordon is way better than what the Mavs had before the trade deadline, and Denver has good role players too. Caldwell-Pope gives them 10 ppg and defense for example.

I love Luka...but this is jibberish. Luka is gonna get a lot of love and MVP's. But JOkic was the guy the last 4 yeas.

You're calling it jibberish but my post was in reply to what YOU said. You said Luka doesn't have much worse teammates, clearly he did for over half the season before the trades. Who was the third best guy in Dallas before the trade deadline? Please give an answer so I can make fun of it. I see you're trying to weasel out of what you said and change the subject.

When Luka is on the court the mavs out score teams by 5.3 points per 100. When he's off they're out scored by 4.2. When Jokic is on the court his team is plus 11.6 and off they're -8.4.

We both agree Jokic has better teammates and that's because he does have a better group of starters. Both teams have benches that get massively out played..Jokic's bench on the whole over the course of the year were significantly worse.

[dhsilv2]

However the Mavs had a far worse luck with the injuries this season. But for some reason the media doesn't talk about that much if at all.

ok...........doesn't change anything thought...

It doesn't change anything in the sense that the Media doesn't talk about that. But it should change it lot, you can't really compare the advanced stats of the guys if one guy plays like +900 minutes with his best lineup and the other only like 170.

Jokic was without Murry and Porter for a full season just a couple of years ago and his stats were basically the same as this year. Jokic's unselfish style of play actually reduces his stats when his teammates are better to some degree.

Now nobody is going to argue that Hardaway and Jones are some world beaters and they were 2nd and 4th in minutes for the Mavs this year. Nor are we going to claim trades don't disrupt teams.

[CobraCommander]

ok...........doesn't change anything thought...

It doesn't change anything in the sense that the Media doesn't talk about that. But it should change it lot, you can't really compare the advanced stats of the guys if one guy plays like +900 minutes with his best lineup and the other only like 170.

Jokic was without Murry and Porter for a full season just a couple of years ago and his stats were basically the same as this year. Jokic's unselfish style of play actually reduces his stats when his teammates better to some degree.

Now nobody is going to argue that Hardaway and Jones are some world beaters and they were 2nd and 4th in minutes for the Mavs this year. Nor are we going to claim trades don't disrupt teams.

To say Jokic had a better year than Luka and SGA and Giannis doesn’t take away from the other guys.

The other 3 were amazing but Jokic is on one of those runs that is only hurt by not winning the mvp. 20 years from now with the BS that happened last year with Embiid and Zeus forbid, if someone else wins the mvp this year, people will not get how good Jokic has been for the last 4 years. Jokic last 4 years should be compared to the prime 4 years of any of the other top 10 guys all time.

No one else playing besides Giannis can say something like that. This year Jokic can separate himself from his only real rival of this era, Giannis.

SGA will have their time but it’s not now - Those two will have to hold off wemby in the way Giannis and Jokic have had to beat back Embiid everytime he tries to approach the throne.

Lukas stats vs SGAs winning more with less and with much better defense and nearly identical scoring but less usage is going to make their rivalry good. It will be like Luka has to beat Kawhi 2.0

[Jamaaliver]

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[CobraCommander]

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Sga and Luka got next -

Right now we still in the Giannis and Jokic era - we need jokic to win this because he is:

A. The best player on earth and reining champ

B. Historical merit on how good his last 4 years have been.


Honestly if this is jokic 4th in a row we are now talking about him as a solid top ten player all time.

Jokic has earned to be considered with the best -

Only MJ in my life time was the best player on earth unquestionably for 4 straight years.

Look don’t attack me for this - but everyone else had a guy that could reasonably say they were as good or better than the “best guy” of that era… except for mj and jokic.

Duncan had Shaq and Kobe

Shaq had Duncan and Hakeem

Lebron had KD and Steph

When Jokic surprised us all and passed Giannis he has reined alone… with us saying Giannis is AS good as jokic, while Giannis has gotten marginally better Jokic has got materially better year over year to the point where Giannis has an amazing year where he avg 30 and 11 and 6 on 60% shooting and we like - that’s nice but not jokic -

The to rob jokic this year will unjustly hurt him in the pantheon of all time greats -

No real basketball fan should want their favorite player to win over jokic -

[OhayoKD]

ok...........doesn't change anything thought...

It doesn't change anything in the sense that the Media doesn't talk about that. But it should change it lot, you can't really compare the advanced stats of the guys if one guy plays like +900 minutes with his best lineup and the other only like 170.

Jokic was without Murry and Porter for a full season just a couple of years ago and his stats were basically the same as this year. Jokic's unselfish style of play actually reduces his stats when his teammates are better to some degree.

Now nobody is going to argue that Hardaway and Jones are some world beaters and they were 2nd and 4th in minutes for the Mavs this year. Nor are we going to claim trades don't disrupt teams.

What a funny little narrative

[Jamaaliver]

Spoiler:

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[Champ1on]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview

Perkins and SAS voted for SGA, of course. Racist scumbags.

They're not racist scumbags. SGA has a great case for MVP. That young man just took the thunder to the #1 seed in the west and he doesn't have a jaylen brown next to him. That is impressive.

SGA should have been disqualified for the number for games he missed due to injury. The race was between Jokic and Luka down the stretch.

[dhsilv2]

It doesn't change anything in the sense that the Media doesn't talk about that. But it should change it lot, you can't really compare the advanced stats of the guys if one guy plays like +900 minutes with his best lineup and the other only like 170.

Jokic was without Murry and Porter for a full season just a couple of years ago and his stats were basically the same as this year. Jokic's unselfish style of play actually reduces his stats when his teammates are better to some degree.

Now nobody is going to argue that Hardaway and Jones are some world beaters and they were 2nd and 4th in minutes for the Mavs this year. Nor are we going to claim trades don't disrupt teams.

What a funny little narrative

What's funny about reality? Jokic doesn't care if others dominate the ball. Jokic could get the ball 5 times in a game if his team wins, he'll be fine with it.

[OhayoKD]

Jokic was without Murry and Porter for a full season just a couple of years ago and his stats were basically the same as this year. Jokic's unselfish style of play actually reduces his stats when his teammates are better to some degree.

Now nobody is going to argue that Hardaway and Jones are some world beaters and they were 2nd and 4th in minutes for the Mavs this year. Nor are we going to claim trades don't disrupt teams.

What a funny little narrative

What's funny about reality? Jokic doesn't care if others dominate the ball. Jokic could get the ball 5 times in a game if his team wins, he'll be fine with it.

Pretending Luka's "ball dominance" isn't a positive is where this starts being funny. Luka's ball-handling is an advantage over Jokic. "Selfish" is a narrative used to protect less productive players.

[dhsilv2]

What a funny little narrative

What's funny about reality? Jokic doesn't care if others dominate the ball. Jokic could get the ball 5 times in a game if his team wins, he'll be fine with it.

Pretending Luka's "ball dominance" isn't a positive is where this starts being funny. Luka's ball-handling is an advantage over Jokic. "Selfish" is a narrative used to protect less productive players.

I'm sorry but Michael Bay is not a better director than Steven Spielberg. It's absurd you think a Michael Bay movie has better directing on average. You're really going to claim Schindler's List isn't better than Bad Boys as a work of art?

[AleksandarN]

142 players had their say.

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