NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 5: So who's winning MVP? )

[Exp0sed]

What about Suns having 16 wins more in 2022?

Suns were much better than the Nuggets but Jokic has actually won more games that season than Booker and it wasn't even clear he and not CP3 were the best player on that team. Impact stats favored CP3

Jokic winning more games than Booker should matter more than team record, wouldn't u agree?

Jokic played substantially more games than Booker in 2022, you want to give Booker the MVP based on games his team won when he was sitting out?

Solid logic..

Sent from my SM-A115F using RealGM mobile app

Are you sure about your math?

I admit i didn't double check and wrote from memory and yes, it is incorrect

the other part is def correct tho, there was an actual debate at the time who really deserves the credit for the Suns rs success
you don't give an MVP when it isn't clear if said player is even the most impactful or most valuable\important player on his own team

especially when the gap in impact and raw stats between Jokic and Booker was huge

[Exp0sed]

Their argument was that Luka slightly better offensive production, is nullified by the gap in defense, they have SGA as 2nd team all defense.
They are really knowledgeable, know the stats and minor details, but I agree with you, I have Luka ahead also, and I have Giannis a tier below.

It is really not "slightly" better offensive production. SGA has 8 double-doubles this season (3x on rebounds and 5x on assists), while Luka has 20 triple-doubles.

It's interesting to indirectly include rebounds as an offensive stat though

that cuts both ways, if rebounds don't count as an offensive stat (and DREB certainly shouldn't be), assists surely are and those DREB should be weighed in for the defensive part, no?

I mean, if SGA steals the ball he is ending the possesion and so does Luka when he grabs a defensive board, which he does alot more than SGA does

I was all over the SGA bandwagon, had him over Jokic for about two months during the season but with him being out, OKC showing what they've got and Luka being on the level that he's been on in this final post ASB stretch - Luka has clearly surpassed SGA for 2nd

[dygaction]

Unlike Denver fans, who never mentioned how bad roster Jokic had in 22.

Imagine comparing the Nuggets '22 roster to the Mavs '24 roster (even with injuries). Luka wouldn't sniff the playoffs with the Nuggets '22 roster...just like that FAILURE to finish top 10 last year.

Denver and OKC were worse than 6? I have to admit they for sure play like that lately.

I mentioned in my other post that the Nuggets were their one quality win during this recent hot stretch. If you include OKC, you're also including the 3 straight L's (2 blowouts) to teams that are 6th or higher. Pick your poison.

Heck Luka had a better team last year than Jokic’s team in 22 and Luka didn’t even make the playoffs.

It is like a multitude of factors that come into play. Quit being obtuse

Luka's second best player last season before trade was Spencer, whose $19M contract was waived this season. Jokic's was AG, whose $22M/yr contract is considered a bargain. Their next best highest paid players were THJ, Bertans, Wood, DFS, Dwight Powell, and Bullock, all making >$10M/yr. It was due to zero salary flexibility and trade assets that they needed to tank to keep the draft. It worked magically well. Luka and Kyrie's injury helped as well.

[Bob8]

Suns were much better than the Nuggets but Jokic has actually won more games that season than Booker and it wasn't even clear he and not CP3 were the best player on that team. Impact stats favored CP3

Jokic winning more games than Booker should matter more than team record, wouldn't u agree?

Jokic played substantially more games than Booker in 2022, you want to give Booker the MVP based on games his team won when he was sitting out?

Solid logic..

Sent from my SM-A115F using RealGM mobile app

Are you sure about your math?

I admit i didn't double check and wrote from memory and yes, it is incorrect

the other part is def correct tho, there was an actual debate at the time who really deserves the credit for the Suns rs success
you don't give an MVP when it isn't clear if said player is even the most impactful or most valuable\important player on his own team

especially when the gap in impact and raw stats between Jokic and Booker was huge

For me MVP is individual award, so wins shouldn't count much. Problem is with criteria, once you hear wins are immensely important, other times they actually aren't. They could easily make criteria more transparent. Like minimum standards to be considered for MVP. Lets say you should be at least top 6 team in the conference. But if you make this criteria only individual achievement should count.

[Exp0sed]

Are you sure about your math?

I admit i didn't double check and wrote from memory and yes, it is incorrect

the other part is def correct tho, there was an actual debate at the time who really deserves the credit for the Suns rs success
you don't give an MVP when it isn't clear if said player is even the most impactful or most valuable\important player on his own team

especially when the gap in impact and raw stats between Jokic and Booker was huge

For me MVP is individual award, so wins shouldn't count much. Problem is with criteria, once you hear wins are immensely important, other times they actually aren't. They could easily make criteria more transparent. Like minimum standards to be considered for MVP. Lets say you should be at least top 6 team in the conference. But if you make this criteria only individual achievement should count.

I see what u mean but I don't think such a criteria is possible because every team,scenario,narrative or season are quite unique
there never was some fixed criteria, it's just the game was viewed more simply in the past so folks went mostly by PPG, team record and a few counting stats. we view the game in a more complicated manner and with a multitude of different scopes and I don't think that's a bad thing..but it def made things more complicated no doubt

[hagredionis]

Luka 27 points, 5 assists, 7 rebounds in the first half. MVP numbers right there.

[HotRocks34]

Luka now has 50 games this season of 30+ points scored after Dallas beat Charlotte.

He leads the league in PPG and Total Points, and probably leads in Total Points Created (Total Points + Points from his assists).

I don't think he'll win MVP, but it's been a great season so far.

[Handlez]

Read on Twitter

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[Exp0sed]

Read on Twitter

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he's having a season for the ages
while I think Jokic is the MVP, as i've said I don't see it as one sided as the straw polls are suggesting

[Exp0sed]

delete plz, wrong thread

[Archx]

and probably leads in Total Points Created (Total Points + Points from his assists).

He's basically been ahead of everyone for entire year.

(Total Points + Points from his assists).

1.Luka = 60
2.Trae = 53.6
3.Jokic = 48.9

[hagredionis]

Luka averages 8.4 defensive rebounds per game same elite centers Adebayo and Wembanyama.

[Special_Puppy]

Luka averages 8.4 defensive rebounds per game same elite centers Adebayo and Wembanyama.

This is why tracking data is useful.
Luka has 9.2 rebounds per game, but only 1.9 of those are contested rebounds. He also only defers 0.7 rebounds per game. If you add up his contested rebounds and deferred rebounds, he has 2.6 adjusted rebounds per game. By contrast Jokic has 5.6 contested rebounds per game and defers 1.4 rebounds per game. If you add up the amount of contested rebounds and deferred rebounds, he has 7 adjusted rebounds per game. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/rebounding?CF=GP*G*30:MIN*G*20&dir=D&sort=REB_CONTEST

[hagredionis]

Luka averages 8.4 defensive rebounds per game same elite centers Adebayo and Wembanyama.

This is why tracking data is useful.
Luka has 9.2 rebounds per game, but only 1.9 of those are contested rebounds. He also only defers 0.7 rebounds per game. If you add up his contested rebounds and deferred rebounds, he has 2.6 adjusted rebounds per game. By contrast Jokic has 5.6 contested rebounds per game and defers 1.4 rebounds per game. If you add up the amount of contested rebounds and deferred rebounds, he has 7 adjusted rebounds per game. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/rebounding?CF=GP*G*30:MIN*G*20&dir=D&sort=REB_CONTEST

OMG are serious? Luka has great basketball IQ, anticipation and reflexes, it's a skill to be in the right place at the right moment. Lukas leading his team in points, assists, rebounds and steals, that's like a textbook definition of an MVP.

[QPR]

Luka averages 8.4 defensive rebounds per game same elite centers Adebayo and Wembanyama.

This is why tracking data is useful.
Luka has 9.2 rebounds per game, but only 1.9 of those are contested rebounds. He also only defers 0.7 rebounds per game. If you add up his contested rebounds and deferred rebounds, he has 2.6 adjusted rebounds per game. By contrast Jokic has 5.6 contested rebounds per game and defers 1.4 rebounds per game. If you add up the amount of contested rebounds and deferred rebounds, he has 7 adjusted rebounds per game. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/rebounding?CF=GP*G*30:MIN*G*20&dir=D&sort=REB_CONTEST

OMG are serious? Luka has great basketball IQ, anticipation and reflexes, it's a skill to be in the right place at the right moment. Lukas leading his team in points, assists, rebounds and steals, that's like a textbook definition of an MVP.

Guess who is also leading his team in points, rebounds, assists and steals and leads Luka in most advanced metrics and team record?

[AleksandarN]

Imagine comparing the Nuggets '22 roster to the Mavs '24 roster (even with injuries). Luka wouldn't sniff the playoffs with the Nuggets '22 roster...just like that FAILURE to finish top 10 last year.



I mentioned in my other post that the Nuggets were their one quality win during this recent hot stretch. If you include OKC, you're also including the 3 straight L's (2 blowouts) to teams that are 6th or higher. Pick your poison.

Heck Luka had a better team last year than Jokic’s team in 22 and Luka didn’t even make the playoffs.

It is like a multitude of factors that come into play. Quit being obtuse

Luka's second best player last season before trade was Spencer, whose $19M contract was waived this season. Jokic's was AG, whose $22M/yr contract is considered a bargain. Their next best highest paid players were THJ, Bertans, Wood, DFS, Dwight Powell, and Bullock, all making >$10M/yr. It was due to zero salary flexibility and trade assets that they needed to tank to keep the draft. It worked magically well. Luka and Kyrie's injury helped as well.

What I said is true. Mavs team was better than the 21 Nuggets team. That’s not obtuse. What multitude of factors? What does that have to do with which team is better including only 20 games of Kyrie. That Nuggets team was terrible

[ChipotleWest]

The Mavs have now clinched a top 6 seed. If they win out and Clippers lose out they'd get 4th if they lose out and Pelicans win out they'd get 6th, otherwise they stay 5th and face the Clippers.

[Yuri36]

Luka now has 50 games this season of 30+ points scored after Dallas beat Charlotte.

He leads the league in PPG and Total Points, and probably leads in Total Points Created (Total Points + Points from his assists).

I don't think he'll win MVP, but it's been a great season so far.

A great season?
That's one of the greatest individual season in history, man....and that's without even taking account of the 73 pts game.

[DrModesty]

SGA back from injury putting up 40/7/4 plus 2 steals 2 blocks in a win over a desperate Kings team.

SGA hasn't had any good publicity for almost a month now between playing injured, then missing games from said injury, then having team lose without him. It has helped Dallas closed the gap between them and OKC to only 5 games and allowed Luka to get momentum for second place in the MVP race with consistent big performances.

OKC vs Dallas is the final game of the season and could well be a straight shoot out for 2nd in MVP. SGA probably would have to outplay Luka and get the win given the momentum of the players/teams. SGA might also have to pair that with a big game against Giannis in OKC's second to last game of the season.

[dygaction]

Luka now has 50 games this season of 30+ points scored after Dallas beat Charlotte.

He leads the league in PPG and Total Points, and probably leads in Total Points Created (Total Points + Points from his assists).

I don't think he'll win MVP, but it's been a great season so far.

A great season?
That's one of the greatest individual season in history, man....and that's without even taking account of the 73 pts game.

Now the narrative is Luka's recent hot streak in Feb and March (2x player of the month) making late push... Only if he was consistent in Jan (37.1/9.2/10.4), Dec (37.5/8.9/11.1), and opening month (31.1/8.0/7.9)...