Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Jokic

[DCasey91]

One of the 3 did. The other two got comically overrated not coming anywhere close.

There is no way you can discount 2022 Jokic carrying that trash roster to 48 wins.

I can when Lebron carried a similarly roster to 60 yeah. Especially when he goes 11-0 without his best offensive teammate.

Varejao - 1.8 VORP .179 WS (8.1)
Williams - 2.3 VORP .136 WS (6.7)
Parker 1.0 VORP .103 WS (4.9)
Hickson 0.3 VORP .123 WS (4.3)

Morris 1.1 VORP .116 WS (5.4)
Barton 0.9 VORP .067 WS (3.9)
Gordon 0.9 VORP .105 WS (5.2)
Green -0.2 VORP .101 WS (3.9) ?!!

Those are the starters
..... Wasn’t a similar roster at all. Jokic’s 2022 season might get lost but it’s one of the best carry jobs of all time. When he sat the Nuggets had the worst offence in the league something 598th and when he was on it was best of all time rocking something like 126 ORTG

88
08
22

Those lists are more similar as I said before on how under par it was.

[DCasey91]

Lebron
Jordan
Shaq

Jokic doesn’t belong in this conversation. Best player in the league right now. But not close to these 3. But this board rides hard for Jokic, as they do Luka, as they do Nash. Not surprising that they think he belongs with these 3.

It’s like this board has short memories. He ran through last years playoffs as great as anyone that’s ever played the game lol.

The season before he carried a pile to 48 wins. I urge anyone to actually look at that list.

We are talking about peak.

[Optms]

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Lebron

-massive gap-

4. Jokic

[Optms]

Lebron
Jordan
Shaq

Jokic doesn’t belong in this conversation. Best player in the league right now. But not close to these 3. But this board rides hard for Jokic, as they do Luka, as they do Nash. Not surprising that they think he belongs with these 3.

It’s like this board has short memories. He ran through last years playoffs as great as anyone that’s ever played the game lol.

The season before he carried a pile to 48 wins. I urge anyone to actually look at that list.

We are talking about peak.

As great as anyone that's ever played the game?

He didn't win MVP last year. The year before he did, great. But he didn't even make it past the first round. Yes, team success matters in this conversation because he is being directly compared to players who didn't get bounced in the first round during their peak.

Furthermore, he was not a defensive player like those 3 players were. Lebron played DPOY level during his post season runs, could legitimately play all 5 positions. Jordan, DPOY level player. Shaq - another game changer on defense. Jokic does not belong in that conversation. Stop.

[DCasey91]

Random team - Lebron, Jokic. Too many variables heck I’d probably put Magic there as well

One game - Lebron or Jordan. After watching a ton of games Bron with a hot jumper is the best player I’ve seen on tape. Jordan is more often than not going to cause huge pressure on the scoreboard.

One year - Jordan, Bron, Jokic. They have the stamina to go a whole season. Shaq yes his peak was absurd no doubt but I’m more comfortable with the other 3 as a the marker.

3 years - Same thing

Today - Bron, Jokic. Playmaking too good. High level scorers, Younger Bron gets more depth on setup along with better shot diet across the board along with himself. Young Bron would be incredible today

I mean absolute peak, and relative peak are different and arguably those 3 best years didn’t end up winning the thing.

There’s also Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, Bird, Curry Who had very very high peaks.

I mean the answer could just be Kareem for arguments sake lmao.

[DCasey91]

Lebron
Jordan
Shaq

Jokic doesn’t belong in this conversation. Best player in the league right now. But not close to these 3. But this board rides hard for Jokic, as they do Luka, as they do Nash. Not surprising that they think he belongs with these 3.

It’s like this board has short memories. He ran through last years playoffs as great as anyone that’s ever played the game lol.

The season before he carried a pile to 48 wins. I urge anyone to actually look at that list.

We are talking about peak.

As great as anyone that's ever played the game?

He didn't win MVP last year. The year before he did, great. But he didn't even make it past the first round. Yes, team success matters in this conversation because he is being directly compared to players who didn't get bounced in the first round during their peak.

Furthermore, he was not a defensive player like those 3 players were. Lebron played DPOY level during his post season runs, could legitimately play all 5 positions. Jordan, DPOY level player. Shaq - another game changer on defense. Jokic does not belong in that conversation. Stop.

1. Racism. Agenda driven. Sports are a business so is the media

2. They lost to GSW the champs. Do people not look at that 22 list and think yeah this can go far. Most of the players on that list don’t play anymore ffs.

1st rnd, second round. Not all teams in the playoffs are equal I’m sure you can understand that.

3. Jokic is a better defender than Shaq. Lakers was pretty pedestrian defensively in their playoff runs. It was their amazing offence. Massive person, rim deterrent, poor outside defender, and can be lazy movement wise.

[Jaqua92]

Peak, peak?

These are the top 4 ever imo.

1. MJ
2. LeBron
3. Shaq
4. Jokic

[JasonStern]

Putting MJ over Shaq is nuts to me if we're just considering top play. We're not debating careers; we're saying in a hypothetical situation where you take the absolute best version of someone. Peak Shaq is the greatest player the league has seen.

+1.
Prime Shaq was so unstoppable the league brought back zone defenses.
Presuming Jokic keeps his current level of play, Shaq is the worst player of the four. But for a small window, he could bully every big man and there was nothing they could do to stop him except foul.

If this was a one-on-one debate, then Shaq would demolish all. The Blazers almost beat the early-00 Lakers

Too soon.

[Peregrine01]

It’s like this board has short memories. He ran through last years playoffs as great as anyone that’s ever played the game lol.

The season before he carried a pile to 48 wins. I urge anyone to actually look at that list.

We are talking about peak.

As great as anyone that's ever played the game?

He didn't win MVP last year. The year before he did, great. But he didn't even make it past the first round. Yes, team success matters in this conversation because he is being directly compared to players who didn't get bounced in the first round during their peak.

Furthermore, he was not a defensive player like those 3 players were. Lebron played DPOY level during his post season runs, could legitimately play all 5 positions. Jordan, DPOY level player. Shaq - another game changer on defense. Jokic does not belong in that conversation. Stop.

1. Racism. Agenda driven. Sports are a business so is the media

2. They lost to GSW the champs. Do people not look at that 22 list and think yeah this can go far. Most of the players on that list don’t play anymore ffs.

1st rnd, second round. Not all teams in the playoffs are equal I’m sure you can understand that.

3. Jokic is a better defender than Shaq. Lakers was pretty pedestrian defensively in their playoff runs. It was their amazing offence. Massive person, rim deterrent, poor outside defender, and can be lazy movement wise.

Shaq being a "game changer" on defense is a crazy take. They almost (should've) lost to the Kings in 2002 because of how much of a statue Shaq was on defense. And this was well before the pace and space era took hold.

[moderndarwin]

MJ - best as a part of a good team
Shaq - highest floor raiser of all time
Lebron - 2nd highest floor raider of all time
Joker - no idea what he’s doing in this convo

[Haldi]

How is Jokic in this conversation? Lol

How is a guy who is on the verge of 3 MVPs in 4 years, who had a historic playoff run last year, while leading the league in a ton of advanced metrics for almost 4 years, and had one of [if not THE] most efficient seasons of all time during this period....on a list of other players with all time peaks?

Great question! Mystery to me too!

You're clearly trolling, or so I hope, but I'll extend a fig leaf and assume you're just uninformed. You can't compare offensive stats from the current era (pretty much the post harden era) with stats from prior eras. Jokic would not be such a statistical anomaly in any other era, though he would remain a top 5 player. The other players we're comparing him against were clear cut anomalies without modern advantages offensive players have. They also played defense at an elite level, which Jokic certainly does not. Jokic is a great player, but he's far, far short (for now) of the top peaks represented by the other guys here. It's not too dissimilar to comparing Harden or Luka to MJ. They're statistically insane (and Luka remains so in the playoffs), but their peaks, which you measure in two way ability, is no where near MJ's.

MJ played in a much weaker era than guys like Jokic, Luka, Harden or even Lebron. If you’re gonna crap on the current era for being oh so easy to pad stats in, why not acknowledge that MJ was playing against a lot of guys that wouldn’t even sniff the NBA today. That makes things way easier than playing in a much more talented era where offense is slightly more favoured. And when you consider playoffs, that difference is next to none and all of these guys are still able to dominate in a much more talented offensively and defensively league. No one in history could’ve done what Jokic did last year, no one in history could’ve done what Lebron did in 2015 and 16 and no one in history could do what Harden was gonna do to the best team of all time before the refs decided it wasn’t gonna happen. You take any of these guys to replace MJ in one of the best team in the expansion 90s and they would dominate the era too. Maybe not as much as MJ, although Lebron I would say even more, but they all walk away with at least 3-4 titles too.

[FreeBird23]

You cant put Lebron ahead of Shaq.
In MJ case I can understand, but Lebron was never as dominant as Shaq.
The League was forced to change the rules because of Shaq.

[Heej]

You cant put Lebron ahead of Shaq.
In MJ case I can understand, but Lebron was never as dominant as Shaq.
The League was forced to change the rules because of Shaq.

Basketball itself changed to a positionless paradigm where star players are expected to be capable of doing everything on the floor because of LeBron

[FreeBird23]

You cant put Lebron ahead of Shaq.
In MJ case I can understand, but Lebron was never as dominant as Shaq.
The League was forced to change the rules because of Shaq.

Basketball itself changed to a positionless paradigm where star players are expected to be capable of doing everything on the floor because of LeBron

Oscar Robertson, John Havlicek, Michael Jordan, Bob Cousy, Elgin Baylor, Grant Hill, Jason Kidd, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird etc...They were here before Lebron and were able to do everything on the floor.

[MacGill]

MJ - ever so slightly over Shaq
Shaq - 00-02 just insane
Jokic - yes, I'd be bold enough already to put Jokic over LBJ as they're the closest in era comparisons and 23 Jokic PS was > than any of LBJ's run, without the need of many superstar, all-star players
LBJ

[Loneshot]

I have to fault Jordan for the one thing others praise him for: staying with the Bulls when he returned to basketball the first time.

I rank Lebron and Shaq over Jordan for the reason that they both have been elite in both conferences. Both have a championship in both conferences. No one can debate their prowess when they have been the best against the entire league more than once, East and West.

A lot of great players helped their legacy by staying in a convenient situation. Both Shaq and LeBron have been champions in various different situations that few if any other players could have been successful in.

[hardenASG13]

MJ - ever so slightly over Shaq
Shaq - 00-02 just insane
Jokic - yes, I'd be bold enough already to put Jokic over LBJ as they're the closest in era comparisons and 23 Jokic PS was > than any of LBJ's run, without the need of many superstar, all-star players
LBJ

Jokic had a teammate average 26/7/6 for the whole playoff run....that's, like, pretty good. They had the best starting 5 in the playoffs pretty comfortably. I think LeBrons 07 cavs destroy the path Jokic did last year (although LeBron would be playing against himself which would be weird). As would many non title winning teams, such as the KD/Westbrook thunder, the Harden rockets, the jail blazers, the early 2000s kings, the late 90s Jazz. I could go on. What denver/Jokic did last year wasn't impressive at all to me considering quality of opponents. It was very similar to Giannis and the Bucks in 2021.

If Denver takes down the Celtics this year I might reconsider, but Jokic needs many more quality playoff series wins to be considered with these guys. Right now his best is the bubble clippers win.

[Inspektor1312]

MJ - ever so slightly over Shaq
Shaq - 00-02 just insane
Jokic - yes, I'd be bold enough already to put Jokic over LBJ as they're the closest in era comparisons and 23 Jokic PS was > than any of LBJ's run, without the need of many superstar, all-star players
LBJ

Jokic had a teammate average 26/7/6 for the whole playoff run....that's, like, pretty good. They had the best starting 5 in the playoffs pretty comfortably. I think LeBrons 07 cavs destroy the path Jokic did last year (although LeBron would be playing against himself which would be weird). As would many non title winning teams, such as the KD/Westbrook thunder, the Harden rockets, the jail blazers, the early 2000s kings, the late 90s Jazz. I could go on. What denver/Jokic did last year wasn't impressive at all to me considering quality of opponents. It was very similar to Giannis and the Bucks in 2021.

If Denver takes down the Celtics this year I might reconsider, but Jokic needs many more quality playoff series wins to be considered with these guys. Right now his best is the bubble clippers win.

I’d argue his best playoff series was last year vs the crazy hot Suns team. He averaged 34/13/10 on insane shooting splits (59/44/85) and took down Booker, KD and CP3.

On topic, MJ is for me clearly ahead of everyone else. Lebron second, Shaq third by a hair.
The only thing Jokic needs to do is play like this for a couple more years and then we can talk again.

[Heej]

You cant put Lebron ahead of Shaq.
In MJ case I can understand, but Lebron was never as dominant as Shaq.
The League was forced to change the rules because of Shaq.

Basketball itself changed to a positionless paradigm where star players are expected to be capable of doing everything on the floor because of LeBron

Oscar Robertson, John Havlicek, Michael Jordan, Bob Cousy, Elgin Baylor, Grant Hill, Jason Kidd, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird etc...They were here before Lebron and were able to do everything on the floor.

And yet no superstars were ever held to the standard of being playmakers, defenders, scorers, and even rebounders the way the way they are now. It was perfectly normal and acceptable for star players to be more specialized pre-LeBron. Now every up and coming kid in AAU is expected to contribute in all facets with guards being told they don't rebound enough and bigs needing to at least be competent enough dribbling and making decisions in short rolls if they want to succeed at the next level

[Homer38]

As great as anyone that's ever played the game?

He didn't win MVP last year. The year before he did, great. But he didn't even make it past the first round. Yes, team success matters in this conversation because he is being directly compared to players who didn't get bounced in the first round during their peak.

Furthermore, he was not a defensive player like those 3 players were. Lebron played DPOY level during his post season runs, could legitimately play all 5 positions. Jordan, DPOY level player. Shaq - another game changer on defense. Jokic does not belong in that conversation. Stop.

1. Racism. Agenda driven. Sports are a business so is the media

2. They lost to GSW the champs. Do people not look at that 22 list and think yeah this can go far. Most of the players on that list don’t play anymore ffs.

1st rnd, second round. Not all teams in the playoffs are equal I’m sure you can understand that.

3. Jokic is a better defender than Shaq. Lakers was pretty pedestrian defensively in their playoff runs. It was their amazing offence. Massive person, rim deterrent, poor outside defender, and can be lazy movement wise.

Shaq being a "game changer" on defense is a crazy take. They almost (should've) lost to the Kings in 2002 because of how much of a statue Shaq was on defense. And this was well before the pace and space era took hold.

Shaq had also major struggle on defense in 2000 vs Blazers and pacers in the playoffs