Where does Karl Malone rank all-time?

[One_and_Done]

You cite the Jazz winning 52 games a year for 17 years. Leaving aside whether that math is right (I haven't checked), Duncan's Spurs played at the win % of a 58 win team... every single year of his 19 yr career. Duncan is not the man to make win total arguments against. As much as I rip Stockton for being overrated, he was definitely better than most of Duncan's Robins over that 19 year span.

Over the 18 year periods mentioned above, the 4 players to play the most other than Malone/Duncan for each team were:

- for the Spurs Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Bruce Bowen, and David Robinson
- for the Jazz John Stockton, Mark Eaton, Bryon Russell, and Thurl Bailey

But you want me to believe the 6 wins/season difference over 18 seasons was due to Duncan being better than Malone? Give me a break.

For the Spurs Parker, Ginobili, and DRob will all be HOFers. For the Jazz only Stockton will be in the HOF.

Nice try.

Guys who weren't in their prime yet/anymore are just names. There was nobody playing at an all-star level next to Duncan from 01 to 04 for example, whereas Stockton was a fringe all-nba guy. Manu hit his prime in 05, and I'd take him over Stockton, but late 00's the top guys drop off again or are injured. Even on the 12-14 teams, where Duncan had slimmed down and was the best Spur again, I don't think any of his 2nd best players were as good as Stockton over the whole year.

You also destroy your credibility by not including guys like Hornacek or J.Malone. The 03 Spurs might be the least talented support cast on a title team in the last 40+ years. It's about context. Every year of his prime, from 98 to 07, his teams eithet met or exceeded expectations. I can't say the same of Malone. He's more of a rich mans Kobe in terms of impact.

[AleksandarN]

13, NOT 12! GET THE FACTS RIGHT!

-A Karl Malone fan

So...the girl gave birth at 13, it takes 9 months for a baby to develop, so yeah, high likelihood she was impregnated as a 12 year old.

I've heard actual Malone defenders try to argue that was not a big deal back then down in the country, ugh.

Wouldn't that mean Malone may have been 19 when he impregnated her then by that logic? I know its a lot easier to call someone adult when the no longer have a "teen" in their age.

Wait what? How many 12 year olds did you try and impregnate at 19? I never met any 19 year old adult who has. Have you?

[One_and_Done]

A top 5 PF ever.

Duncan is widely considered the untouchable GOAT PF. He did have the luxury of being interchangeable as a Center.

In the mix with Giannis, Dirk, Petit from 2-5.

I would definitely put him over Barkley and KG.

Gets unfairly criticized at times as a playoff performer. He (and his team) came up short to some absolute bad asses (94 & 95 Hakeem & 97 & 98 Jordan) ..... no shame in that.

I don't know if KG ever had a teammate as good as John Stockton. He certainly didn't in Minnesota. The one year he had a 34 year old Cassell he lost in the WCF to some bad asses in Shaq and Kobe, and Cassell got injured that playoff series.

In 2004 he lost to Shaq and Kobe
In 2003 he lost to Shaq and Kobe
In 2002 he lost to Dirk and Nash
In 2001 he lost to Duncan and Robinson

And instead of Stockton, he had Terrell Brandon, a 24 year old Billups, and then Wally Szerbiak.

02 Billups performed like an all-star once he got to start, and D.Rob was a fake all-star in 01, similar to Wally in 02 but even moreso. He was definitely not as good as T.Brandon in the early 00s, or 02 Billups.

[NZB2323]

Karl Malone being better than Kobe really shouldn’t be a controversial position. Here are their stats to start with:

Kobe from 00-10: 36.9pp100, 7.6rp100, 6.9ap100, 558 TS%, 113 Ortg

Malone from 89-00: 36.9pp100, 14.4rp100, 4.9ap100, 592 TS%, 116 Ortg

It looks to me like Malone was doing much the same as Kobe on offense, just more efficiently, while also providing much more on the defensive end. Malone doesn’t have rings, because rings are a team accomplishment. Malone’s team was never favoured to win the title, because he never had the best supporting cast around him. Meanwhile Kobe’s team was favoured to win the title at least 10 times (00-04, 08-11, and 13) and only won 5 times. Kobe won as an overdog, winning the title when he was on the best team who was favoured to win the title, and losing as often as he won when he was favoured. Is there even a single year Kobe’s team won when they should not have?

From 99-07 Kobe’s record in games without Shaq was 135-137. He couldn’t lead a mediocre team to save his life, but Malone could. Yeh, Stockton was a nice player, but he wasn’t Shaq. Stockton was a fringe all-nba guy.

If you want someone famous, you take Kobe. If you want someone who was more impactful at winning basketball games, you take Karl Malone.

Malone’s efficiency went down in the playoffs. It’s hard to win a playoff series when your #1 option isn’t as efficient as the other team’s.

Career playoff TS%:

Malone: 52.6%
Kobe: 54.1%

And Stockton wasn’t a fringe all-NBA guy. He’s one of the best point guards of all time. He’s the all time leader in steals and assists who made the all-NBA 1st team twice, the 2nd team 6 times, and the 3rd team 3 times. ESPN ranked him the 24th best player of all time and Pau Gasol didn’t make the top 76 team, never made an all-NBA 1st team, and only has 2 2nd all-NBA teams and 2 3rd all-NBA teams.

[AleksandarN]

I like that he and his family have moved pass that situation that random fans online keep referencing/bringing up, and are living their lives. I rank him number 2 greatest Power Forward of all time behind Duncan with Barkley not too far behind him. I hated this guy growing up, but I respect him and that Jazz team a lot now. Have for years. They were a very tough team that could give any modern team a run for their money imo.

Malones defense wasn't always consistent, but what he did do worked for him at helping the Jazz overall good team defense.

I’m sure the family of the Boston marathon bombers are over those crimes too, but that doesn’t mean society should just get over it.

**** deserve to be treated like ****

Not trying to defend Malone but nobody including society knows what happened other than she was 13 and he was 22. Malone nor the family have ever talked about it. Instead of saying I don’t, when it comes to big news stories, society tends to have its pitchforks ready even if there is very little public information and this could be a good thing or bad thing. But I am happy that our justice system, while flawed, doesn’t work that way.

A 13 year old gave birth to a child fathered by Malone. What do you think happened? What state is that legal?

[SlimShady83]

He doesn’t deserve to be ranked

Obviously butt hurt due to his off court persona, but come on man, one of, If not the best PF to ever play the game; T.Duncan, D.Rodman only 2 ahead of him In the PF department IMO

[The High Cyde]

He doesn’t deserve to be ranked

Obviously butt hurt due to his off court persona, but come on man, one of, If not the best PF to ever play the game; T.Duncan, D.Rodman only 2 ahead of him In the PF department IMO

Sorry, who?

[NZB2323]

A top 5 PF ever.

Duncan is widely considered the untouchable GOAT PF. He did have the luxury of being interchangeable as a Center.

In the mix with Giannis, Dirk, Petit from 2-5.

I would definitely put him over Barkley and KG.

Gets unfairly criticized at times as a playoff performer. He (and his team) came up short to some absolute bad asses (94 & 95 Hakeem & 97 & 98 Jordan) ..... no shame in that.

I don't know if KG ever had a teammate as good as John Stockton. He certainly didn't in Minnesota. The one year he had a 34 year old Cassell he lost in the WCF to some bad asses in Shaq and Kobe, and Cassell got injured that playoff series.

In 2004 he lost to Shaq and Kobe
In 2003 he lost to Shaq and Kobe
In 2002 he lost to Dirk and Nash
In 2001 he lost to Duncan and Robinson

And instead of Stockton, he had Terrell Brandon, a 24 year old Billups, and then Wally Szerbiak.

02 Billups performed like an all-star once he got to start, and D.Rob was a fake all-star in 01, similar to Wally in 02 but even moreso. He was definitely not as good as T.Brandon in the early 00s, or 02 Billups.

We can compare their playoff numbers:

2002 Billups: 22, 6, and 5, 55.2 TS%, 16.6 PER
2001 Brandon: 15, 6, and 4, 48.2 TS%, 15.3 PER
2001 Robinson: 17, 12, and 2, 53.8 TS%, 24.5 PER

Brandon performed better in 2000, when KG was 23 going up against a stacked Blazers team.

It’s just weird to give Malone a pass for losing to Jordan and Hakeem but then not give KG a pass for losing to Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, and Dirk, when KG had a worse supporting cast.

[One_and_Done]

Karl Malone being better than Kobe really shouldn’t be a controversial position. Here are their stats to start with:

Kobe from 00-10: 36.9pp100, 7.6rp100, 6.9ap100, 558 TS%, 113 Ortg

Malone from 89-00: 36.9pp100, 14.4rp100, 4.9ap100, 592 TS%, 116 Ortg

It looks to me like Malone was doing much the same as Kobe on offense, just more efficiently, while also providing much more on the defensive end. Malone doesn’t have rings, because rings are a team accomplishment. Malone’s team was never favoured to win the title, because he never had the best supporting cast around him. Meanwhile Kobe’s team was favoured to win the title at least 10 times (00-04, 08-11, and 13) and only won 5 times. Kobe won as an overdog, winning the title when he was on the best team who was favoured to win the title, and losing as often as he won when he was favoured. Is there even a single year Kobe’s team won when they should not have?

From 99-07 Kobe’s record in games without Shaq was 135-137. He couldn’t lead a mediocre team to save his life, but Malone could. Yeh, Stockton was a nice player, but he wasn’t Shaq. Stockton was a fringe all-nba guy.

If you want someone famous, you take Kobe. If you want someone who was more impactful at winning basketball games, you take Karl Malone.

Malone’s efficiency went down in the playoffs. It’s hard to win a playoff series when your #1 option isn’t as efficient as the other team’s.

Career playoff TS%:

Malone: 52.6%
Kobe: 54.1%

And Stockton wasn’t a fringe all-NBA guy. He’s one of the best point guards of all time. He’s the all time leader in steals and assists who made the all-NBA 1st team twice, the 2nd team 6 times, and the 3rd team 3 times. ESPN ranked him the 24th best player of all time and Pau Gasol didn’t make the top 76 team, never made an all-NBA 1st team, and only has 2 2nd all-NBA teams and 2 3rd all-NBA teams.

Career playoff TS% doesn't capture each of their respective primes. Try harder please. Mailman did drop a little in the playoffs, he was playing at a level only slightly above Kobe at that point. He only looks bad in the playoffs compared to himself, not Kobe, who had a tonne of bad playoff series.

Agree to disagree on Stockton. Very overrated player; certainly no Shaq, and frankly not even as good as Pau. Not close.

[One_and_Done]

I don't know if KG ever had a teammate as good as John Stockton. He certainly didn't in Minnesota. The one year he had a 34 year old Cassell he lost in the WCF to some bad asses in Shaq and Kobe, and Cassell got injured that playoff series.

In 2004 he lost to Shaq and Kobe
In 2003 he lost to Shaq and Kobe
In 2002 he lost to Dirk and Nash
In 2001 he lost to Duncan and Robinson

And instead of Stockton, he had Terrell Brandon, a 24 year old Billups, and then Wally Szerbiak.

02 Billups performed like an all-star once he got to start, and D.Rob was a fake all-star in 01, similar to Wally in 02 but even moreso. He was definitely not as good as T.Brandon in the early 00s, or 02 Billups.

We can compare their playoff numbers:

2002 Billups: 22, 6, and 5, 55.2 TS%, 16.6 PER
2001 Brandon: 15, 6, and 4, 48.2 TS%, 15.3 PER
2001 Robinson: 17, 12, and 2, 53.8 TS%, 24.5 PER

Brandon performed better in 2000, when KG was 23 going up against a stacked Blazers team.

It’s just weird to give Malone a pass for losing to Jordan and Hakeem but then not give KG a pass for losing to Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, and Dirk, when KG had a worse supporting cast.

I have KG in my top 10, so I don't think I'm underating him. He's ahead of Malone for sure. You're overstating it a little IMO though. RS counts too btw, not just playoffs. Anyway, it's a minor point.

[Rainwater]

I’m sure the family of the Boston marathon bombers are over those crimes too, but that doesn’t mean society should just get over it.

**** deserve to be treated like ****

Not trying to defend Malone but nobody including society knows what happened other than she was 13 and he was 22. Malone nor the family have ever talked about it. Instead of saying I don’t, when it comes to big news stories, society tends to have its pitchforks ready even if there is very little public information and this could be a good thing or bad thing. But I am happy that our justice system, while flawed, doesn’t work that way.

A 13 year old gave birth to a child fathered by Malone. What do you think happened? What state is that legal?

That is all we know, we don’t know the details. We don’t know how they meet. Did Malone now she was 13? Like you said getting a 13 year old pregnant is illegal so why didn’t the State press charges against Malone? The police don’t have to wait on the parents of the girl to press charges since the parents might be seeing dollar signs. All these things are important questions to ask but we don’t. I could understand the hate towards Malone but I feel like people are talking something they know nothing about.

[ChuckChilly]

So...the girl gave birth at 13, it takes 9 months for a baby to develop, so yeah, high likelihood she was impregnated as a 12 year old.

I've heard actual Malone defenders try to argue that was not a big deal back then down in the country, ugh.

Wouldn't that mean Malone may have been 19 when he impregnated her then by that logic? I know its a lot easier to call someone adult when the no longer have a "teen" in their age.

Wait what? How many 12 year olds did you try and impregnate at 19? I never met any 19 year old adult who has. Have you?

Wait what? I was just pointing out the flaw in the logic and the cognitive dissonance people have when referring to people in their late teens or early 20s as kids or adults.

[AleksandarN]

Not trying to defend Malone but nobody including society knows what happened other than she was 13 and he was 22. Malone nor the family have ever talked about it. Instead of saying I don’t, when it comes to big news stories, society tends to have its pitchforks ready even if there is very little public information and this could be a good thing or bad thing. But I am happy that our justice system, while flawed, doesn’t work that way.

A 13 year old gave birth to a child fathered by Malone. What do you think happened? What state is that legal?

That is all we know, we don’t know the details. We don’t know how they meet. Did Malone now she was 13? Like you said getting a 13 year old pregnant is illegal so why didn’t the State press charges against Malone? The police don’t have to wait on the parents of the girl to press charges since the parents might be seeing dollar signs. All these things are important questions to ask but we don’t. I could understand the hate towards Malone but I feel like people are talking something they know nothing about.

I am sorry if you can’t tell the difference between a 12 - 13 year old and an adult then that’s on you. He referred to her as his gf.

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/latest-news/karl-malone-responds-to-criticism-after-getting-a-13-year-old-pregnant-back-when-he-was-20

The incident took place in 1983, during Malone's second year at Louisiana Tech. He called the young lady in question his girlfriend. Although Bell's family filed a paternity lawsuit, they did not file statutory rape charges. Malone refuted the charge but ultimately reached an out-of-court settlement with the family.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

I don't know if KG ever had a teammate as good as John Stockton. He certainly didn't in Minnesota. The one year he had a 34 year old Cassell he lost in the WCF to some bad asses in Shaq and Kobe, and Cassell got injured that playoff series.

In 2004 he lost to Shaq and Kobe
In 2003 he lost to Shaq and Kobe
In 2002 he lost to Dirk and Nash
In 2001 he lost to Duncan and Robinson

And instead of Stockton, he had Terrell Brandon, a 24 year old Billups, and then Wally Szerbiak.

The excuses for KG never end, lol. This thread is more about Karl than KG so i dont want to stray too much off topic. I've already made it known in previous threads how I feel about him......imho the most overrated HOF player that people on RealGM and in the media rank so highly.

The 02 series was a 50/50 series on paper. Dallas wasn't some invincible team. Both teams that year were looking up to LA, Sacramento and San Antonio out West.

Dirk outplayed KG to almost the same level of Hakeem vs Robinson in 95. KG was in his prime and more experienced than Dirk. He got more than enough help from Chauncey and Billups in that series. KG just wasn't offensively good enough (42% FG), and roaming around guarding everyone but the guy that played the same position as him that was killing his squad lol.

And it's funny how the 40 year old version of Karl Malone on his last legs reduced MVP KG into a kitten in game 6 in 04 and shut him down.....forced him out on the perimeter (partly because he wasn't strong enough and the other part settling too much for lower % turnaround shots and not drawing fouls)

I would take Karl over KG 10 out if 10 as a PF.

[NZB2323]

Karl Malone being better than Kobe really shouldn’t be a controversial position. Here are their stats to start with:

Kobe from 00-10: 36.9pp100, 7.6rp100, 6.9ap100, 558 TS%, 113 Ortg

Malone from 89-00: 36.9pp100, 14.4rp100, 4.9ap100, 592 TS%, 116 Ortg

It looks to me like Malone was doing much the same as Kobe on offense, just more efficiently, while also providing much more on the defensive end. Malone doesn’t have rings, because rings are a team accomplishment. Malone’s team was never favoured to win the title, because he never had the best supporting cast around him. Meanwhile Kobe’s team was favoured to win the title at least 10 times (00-04, 08-11, and 13) and only won 5 times. Kobe won as an overdog, winning the title when he was on the best team who was favoured to win the title, and losing as often as he won when he was favoured. Is there even a single year Kobe’s team won when they should not have?

From 99-07 Kobe’s record in games without Shaq was 135-137. He couldn’t lead a mediocre team to save his life, but Malone could. Yeh, Stockton was a nice player, but he wasn’t Shaq. Stockton was a fringe all-nba guy.

If you want someone famous, you take Kobe. If you want someone who was more impactful at winning basketball games, you take Karl Malone.

Malone’s efficiency went down in the playoffs. It’s hard to win a playoff series when your #1 option isn’t as efficient as the other team’s.

Career playoff TS%:

Malone: 52.6%
Kobe: 54.1%

And Stockton wasn’t a fringe all-NBA guy. He’s one of the best point guards of all time. He’s the all time leader in steals and assists who made the all-NBA 1st team twice, the 2nd team 6 times, and the 3rd team 3 times. ESPN ranked him the 24th best player of all time and Pau Gasol didn’t make the top 76 team, never made an all-NBA 1st team, and only has 2 2nd all-NBA teams and 2 3rd all-NBA teams.

Career playoff TS% doesn't capture each of their respective primes. Try harder please. Mailman did drop a little in the playoffs, he was playing at a level only slightly above Kobe at that point. He only looks bad in the playoffs compared to himself, not Kobe, who had a tonne of bad playoff series.

Agree to disagree on Stockton. Very overrated player; certainly no Shaq, and frankly not even as good as Pau. Not close.

Can we use the years they won MVP as their primes?

1997 Malone regular season: 60 TS%
1997 Malone playoffs: 50.1 TS%

1999 Malone regular season: 57.7 TS%
1999 Malone playoffs: 49.2 TS%

2008 Kobe regular season: 57.6 TS%
2008 Kobe playoffs: 57.7 TS%

If you want a player who is more efficient in the regular season you take Malone. If you want a player who is more efficient in the playoffs, you take Kobe.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

A top 5 PF ever.

Duncan is widely considered the untouchable GOAT PF. He did have the luxury of being interchangeable as a Center.

In the mix with Giannis, Dirk, Petit from 2-5.

I would definitely put him over Barkley and KG.

Gets unfairly criticized at times as a playoff performer. He (and his team) came up short to some absolute bad asses (94 & 95 Hakeem & 97 & 98 Jordan) ..... no shame in that.

yeah, this is similar to how people like to hate on MJ for not having any success until Pippen. MJ was losing to some great and even some of the best teams in history as a one-man team. At least MJ finally broke through. Same goes with those Hakeem and MJ teams. You really can't fault the man for that.

I think he's in the mix with all the great PF and you could argue he's #1 (unless you view Duncan as strictly a PF) among them. I don't think he's quite a top 25 player. There are many more greats from the 50s, 60s and 70s people forget about when discussing these rankings so he's lower than most likely have him.

I don't think the bolded is similar between MJ and Malone.

People criticizing Jordan b4 for his teams coming up on the losing side at the end of the those seasons for not winning can't say for the most part he wasn't killing it in the playoffs and didn't deliver individually b4 90-91.

Malone has been criticized for not delivering in the playoffs and having a drop-off vs the regular seasons quite a lot.

[lonzo_pelota]

Some may say some of Karl Malones karma was losing in the finals twice and Jordan stealing the ball from him to seal that series clinching victory in Utah on his home court, but judging by current zeitgeist of today & social medias not letting things slide mantra that karma is alive and well.

[One_and_Done]

Malone’s efficiency went down in the playoffs. It’s hard to win a playoff series when your #1 option isn’t as efficient as the other team’s.

Career playoff TS%:

Malone: 52.6%
Kobe: 54.1%

And Stockton wasn’t a fringe all-NBA guy. He’s one of the best point guards of all time. He’s the all time leader in steals and assists who made the all-NBA 1st team twice, the 2nd team 6 times, and the 3rd team 3 times. ESPN ranked him the 24th best player of all time and Pau Gasol didn’t make the top 76 team, never made an all-NBA 1st team, and only has 2 2nd all-NBA teams and 2 3rd all-NBA teams.

Career playoff TS% doesn't capture each of their respective primes. Try harder please. Mailman did drop a little in the playoffs, he was playing at a level only slightly above Kobe at that point. He only looks bad in the playoffs compared to himself, not Kobe, who had a tonne of bad playoff series.

Agree to disagree on Stockton. Very overrated player; certainly no Shaq, and frankly not even as good as Pau. Not close.

Can we use the years they won MVP as their primes?

1997 Malone regular season: 60 TS%
1997 Malone playoffs: 50.1 TS%

1999 Malone regular season: 57.7 TS%
1999 Malone playoffs: 49.2 TS%

2008 Kobe regular season: 57.6 TS%
2008 Kobe playoffs: 57.7 TS%

If you want a player who is more efficient in the regular season you take Malone. If you want a player who is more efficient in the playoffs, you take Kobe.

Since those were 3 of the worst MVPs in recent memory I certainly wouldn't use them. Here's an idea, how about instead of using a random 1 year sample from when a guy is 33 and 35, we use the same 89-00 sample for Malone I used above (when he was aged 25-36).
TS% 534. If I had taken K.Malone age 25-31 though he'd be at 551 TS%.

Now here's Kobe 00-10, through to his age 31 season. 558 TS%.

So Kobe is a little ahead for efficiency in the playoffs, but he's also not bringing the huge impact on D and the boards that Malone does. Kobe also drops to 35pp100 over that period, and Malone is also at 35pp100.

I dunno man, it looks pretty close in the playoffs on O, with Malone still having a huge defensive edge. Then in the RS Malone blows Kobe away on both fronts.

[neno]

I can't stop wanting to put Kevin McHale ahead of him idk

[NZB2323]

I don't know if KG ever had a teammate as good as John Stockton. He certainly didn't in Minnesota. The one year he had a 34 year old Cassell he lost in the WCF to some bad asses in Shaq and Kobe, and Cassell got injured that playoff series.

In 2004 he lost to Shaq and Kobe
In 2003 he lost to Shaq and Kobe
In 2002 he lost to Dirk and Nash
In 2001 he lost to Duncan and Robinson

And instead of Stockton, he had Terrell Brandon, a 24 year old Billups, and then Wally Szerbiak.

The excuses for KG never end, lol. This thread is more about Karl than KG so i dont want to stray too much off topic. I've already made it known in previous threads how I feel about him......imho the most overrated HOF player that people on RealGM and in the media rank so highly.

The 02 series was a 50/50 series on paper. Dallas wasn't some invincible team. Both teams that year were looking up to LA, Sacramento and San Antonio out West.

Dirk outplayed KG to almost the same level of Hakeem vs Robinson in 95. KG was in his prime and more experienced than Dirk. He got more than enough help from Chauncey and Billups in that series. KG just wasn't offensively good enough (42% FG), and roaming around guarding everyone but the guy that played the same position as him that was killing his squad lol.

And it's funny how the 40 year old version of Karl Malone on his last legs reduced MVP KG into a kitten in game 6 in 04 and shut him down.....forced him out on the perimeter (partly because he wasn't strong enough and the other part settling too much for lower % turnaround shots and not drawing fouls)

I would take Karl over KG 10 out if 10 as a PF.

Not quite. Dallas won 57 games, Minnesota won 50

Finley: 25, 7, and 3, 61.1 TS%, 18 GmSc
Nash: 21, 9, and 4, 55.8 TS%, 16.4 GmSc
Billups: 22, 6, and 5, 55.2 TS%, 14.3 GmSc
Szerbiak: 20, 7, and 2, 57.8 TS%, 13.9 GmSc

Yes, Dirk outplayed KG. There are lots of series where Malone got outplayed.

KG wasn’t the most efficient playoff performer either, but his team defense and passing are much better than Malone’s.